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[micelus]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Name: The Copper Khanate

Trait: The Silk Road. The Khanate, while seen by the world as savage warmongers, has a surprisingly effective spy network that ensures they always have an influence no matter where in the world. 
Trait: Bringing Back the Knight. The Khanate is known mainly for its fielding of melee troops in an age of lasers and cybernetics. Backed by advanced technology (mainly forcefields and laserblades), Khanate armies are a mix of foot soldiers, tanks, dragoons and aerial support.
Trait: The Grand Majority. The Khanate has conquered nearly all of Asia and as such rules much of its population.
(Optional Negative Trait): Loot, Rape and Pillage. The Khanate has an extremely bad reputation amongst other countries and especially amongst the conquered peoples. Rebellion is of course common.
(Optional Postitive Trait): Artificial Evolution. The Khanate's leadership is all too aware of Earth's deteriorating biosphere and rather than attempting to flee or spend ludicrous amounts of cash reversing it (far too late anyhow) are instead re-engineering their populace to comfortably survive the new world. That this research has also been used to improve the minds and forms of the populace for other purposes is of course, an open secret.

Description: The sudden emergence of a khanate in Inner Mongolia was without a doubt, one of the oddest and most unlikely events of the 20th century. What had begun as an anti-communist uprising ended with a superstate that  had conquered nearly all of Asia. The founder of the rebellion, Tomorbaatar, himself seemed surprised as evidenced by his personal memoirs and his repeatedly insane conquests that he assured himself he would lose. In nearly all such events, his generals were able to defeat the enemy, take the objective and annex the nation to the newly founded Copper Khanate. Some attribute their victories to their reliance on guerilla warfare and adaption of obsolete tactics to the modern era, others to the unpreparedness of the khan's rivals. Regardless, his death saw an end to his conquests and the institution of a semi-elected oligarchy, the Kurultai. In this new age of deteriorating environment, war and technological growth, they have pledged to conquer the whole world and usher in a new Pax Mongolica...Or die trying.

[~Neri]

Personally I'm expecting biological mind enhancements to come before we get a self improving AI.

[10ebbor10]

......................................can swords still be a viable weapon?

Scientifically speaking, early spaceships will be fighting at a distance of at most about ten kilometers. Making boarding actions feasible. And due to the thinness of initial hulls and the relatively low speeds, it'll be possible to use boarding pods. The thinness of hulls will make bullets a bad idea as well. And the close quarters will make melee much more viable.

What?

How did you come to that conclusion. Scientifically speaking, both early and advanced spaceships will fight at extremely long ranges, probably closer to being measured in lightseconds than kilometers. Coming close requires matching both orbit and velocity (well, you can decide not to match velocity, but that means you have engagement windows of a few fraction of a second). Now, this is delta-v intensive and it means you will be closing very slowly, with lots of opportunities for either side to avoid the other.

It's much more logical to send a missile, which can automatically correct course and engage from extremely long ranges. Due to the light (or actually nonexistent warhead), the thing has massive delta v with little fuel. And, as it's a missile, it doesn't need to match velocity. Matching location is sufficient. And, since missiles are small, chances are that by the time it is detected, people are already dead. Speed is deadly in space.

When thinking of spacecombat, don't think of Battleships duking it out at close range (Not that they did, mind you). Think of submarines. (Alternatively, play KSP and try to dock)


Anyway, is there still space?

[~Neri]

Early space combat is likely to emulate naval warfare. We don't have the sensors to detect enemies at those longer ranges and fire during those tiny firing windows.

[10ebbor10]

Early space combat is likely to emulate naval warfare. We don't have the sensors to detect enemies at those longer ranges and fire during those tiny firing windows.

No it isn't. Space is not an Ocean.

We do have the sensors to detect those things at longer ranges. (Besides, how are you going to match orbit with something you don't know is there?) . We had systems capable of doing this 30 years ago. And they did. Besides, how are you launching rockets if you can't get a rocket engine to start in a 1 second window. It's not amateur hour.

The Soviets did however, develop a co-orbiting missile system. It worked, but even as a missile, it needed 80-200 minutes to come within range and kill the target. By that time, the kinetic kill system could have killed you a hundred times over.

Besides, still no reason why anyone would utilize manned people. Your average person weights 70-80 kg. Include lifesupport, and that's probably in the 1 ton range  (much, much more if you want more luxury than a small mercury capsule). The ASAT weight 13.6 kg, and impacts at 24,140 km/h. That's 73 kg of TNTequivalent worth of kinetic energy.

Clearly, the missile is the superior option, even if you go for a co-orbiting model.


https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Anti-satellite_weapon

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASM-135_ASAT

[~Neri]

I'm aware space is not an ocean. I mean they will likely emulate the distances early on. Odds are is the ranges will increase rapidly, but at the beginning, that's the most likely.

Most naval warfare between first world countries involves multiple kilometers between each side.

[10ebbor10]

I'm aware space is not an ocean. I mean they will likely emulate the distances early on. Odds are is the ranges will increase rapidly, but at the beginning, that's the most likely.

Most naval warfare between first world countries involves multiple kilometers between each side.

No it isn't. And just reiterating your position doesn't make you right.

The only argument you give is that our sensors won't be good enough to see at longer range. The counterargument is obvious. How do you close in on an enemy, if you don't know where they are?

Anyway, in order to match orbit, you need to burn retrograde, enter another lower orbit, wait until you catch up, then burn forwards again. And that's if you don't need to change inclination, or altitude.

Spoiler:  An example (click to show/hide)

Ship 1 : Circular equatorial orbit at 200x200km
Ship 2 : Circular polar orbit at 200x200 km

Delta-v required to change orbit  : 16 km/s
Assuming the ship weighs 3 tonnes (the lunar lander weighted 15 tonnes) and uses a high end chemical drive with an exhaust velocity of 4.5 km/s, you would require 105 tonnes of fuel. (Don't think about Ion drives. It would take months to match orbits with those.) You see where this is going.

Most naval warfare between first world countries involves multiple kilometers between each side.

Naval combat between modern nation will occur beyond visual range. Cruise missiles and all that. Even Word War 2 torpedos had ranges in excess of 20 kilometers.

If you want space Pirates, just say you want space pirates. Don't try to justify what can't be justified.

[Rolepgeek]

And then of course there's always the possibility of something we don't presently have popping up.

Like an Inertial Redirector. Or something.

I really don't care since it'll be a while before space combat happens anyway.

There's no real way that combat will be in light seconds though, unless we have functioning, compact and cost-effective laser weapons and targeting systems able to target someone at such distances, especially someone likely undergoing continuous evasive maneuvers.

[10ebbor10]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Name: Atlantic Conglomerate

Trait:  Industrial Powerhouse "The Conglomerates Factories might not be state of the art or fully self aware, but they're modern, well maintained and capable of producing a whole lot of things."
Trait:  Automated Seabed Mining "The Conglomerate's advanced Seabed mining technology has given it the resources it needs to maintain it's industrial empire."
Trait:  Conglomerate Fleet "The Conglomerate maintains a sizeable military and commercial fleet, trading it's resources and products all over the world"
(Optional Postitive Trait): Deadly Arsenal "The Conglomerate maintains a fearsome arsenal of nuclear, biological and chemical weaponry."
(Optional Negative Trait): Goal Justifies Means "The Conglomerate has used it's weaponry if the situation desires it. This has not helped international relations"

History :

The Atlantic Conglomerate was founded in the year 2017 as merger of several massive naval corporations. As resource scarcity increased, travel by boat (one of the most resource efficient ways of trade) became ever more important. However, the Conglomerate was not the only one to notice. With unrest on the rise, and civilian authorities in chaos, the Conglomerate slowly build up a sizeable force to defends it's fleet of tankers, barges and haulers. Despite that, the corporation noticed that with dwindling supplies, and rising isolationism, soon there might no longer be any willing trading partners left. In 2021, tensions rose when the Companies flag ship was taken hostage in a foreign harbor, and scuttled.

Seeking to insure that it's fleets would not be isolated, the Conglomerate commissioned a series of massive floating platforms. With the industrial facilities capable of serving the entire fleet, and more than space enough to store resources that needed transferring to another ship, the Conglomerate platforms formed a series of safe havens floating through the Atlantic Ocean. However, deep below the surface another story unfolded. The deep ocean was the last unexplored and unexploited part of the world, and held a massive amounts of viable resources. Automatic rovers, powered by the stations above, slowly crawling over the ocean, harvesting rare minerals and other essential resources.

With it's newfound prosperity, the Conglomerate grew in power. As nations fell in chaos, with the rise of the Khanate in the East and decline of the West, the Conglomerate ensured the safety of it's trading ports. By force, if nessecairy.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There's no real way that combat will be in light seconds though, unless we have functioning, compact and cost-effective laser weapons and targeting systems able to target someone at such distances, especially someone likely undergoing continuous evasive maneuvers.

Yes there is. Okay, not at the moment, as there's nothing a lightsecond away that you'd want to shoot, but it's possible.

A light second is a mere 300 000 km. It's not that far.

And continuous evasive maneuvers don't matter for a guided projectile (in fact, they make it much easier to hit, since you're giving of a big signature). Anyway you can't really evade the missile as the missile has more fuel, a better engine, is lighter, and doesn't have squichy humans/electronics inside that can get hit. Most importantly, being such a small target, detection is unlikely untill you come closer.

[Rolepgeek]

So you're taking up missiles with you to space, as well? Man, that's gonna get expensive damn fast. Not to mention there's the whole CIWS thing, or other, as you've said, kinetic kill systems. It'll have a thermal signature just fine if it's guided, besides modern detection capabilities with simple things like radar. How would it have a better engine, anyhow? Lighter, certainly. More delta-V, quite possibly. More fuel, period, unlikely.

Edit: Point is, if you want to go for realism, space combat is unlikely and fairly unrealistic, at least this early on(especially/most definitely this early on). If you want to go for Sci Fi and have fun, then you can do space combat. But don't try and combine the two and still claim realism.

[10ebbor10]

So you're taking up missiles with you to space, as well? Man, that's gonna get expensive damn fast. Not to mention there's the whole CIWS thing, or other, as you've said, kinetic kill systems. It'll have a thermal signature just fine if it's guided, besides modern detection capabilities with simple things like radar. How would it have a better engine, anyhow? Lighter, certainly. More delta-V, quite possibly. More fuel, period, unlikely.

Kinetic kill is the system by which the warhead operates. And you know, Close In Weapon Systems are mostly useless in space. A warhead closing in at 24 km/s isn't going to be stopped by the slow bullets flying towards it. Damaged, yes, but that doesn't really matter if the shrapnel still perforates the hull.

Better engine is simple. The target is likely to be optimized towards efficiency, and utilize ion engines or something. For a missile, long term operations don't matter much.

And you know, it might get expensive, but nowhere near as expensive as Space Pirates.

[Generally me]

Gonna agree with 10ebbor on this stuff.

Also for singularity I really doubt it will become a thing within mine or your life span. The human brain is far to complicated for us to understand it anytime soon, let alone reproduce it to be more efficient and clever. Specially since it's had millions of years to trial and error it's way into nearly the most perfect and effective system possible.

[Rolepgeek]

If the guidance system is damages, it'll miss. Period. At such distances, a difference of a degree means missing by a mile. Sure, the shrapnel might spread, but that's what ERA, angled armor plates, double hulls, and pointing the cylindrical shape of your rocket directly towards the incoming debris is for. Point Defense against something like that isn't too hard. You have a long ways to see it coming, after all, and it'll be accelerating at, what, a thousand Gs? And yes, it'll get destroyed by those 'slow' bullets. ETC weapons can pack a punch, railguns(albeit ones that break after every shot) are already a thing, and it'll be affectes by it's own relative velocity causing it to be the one to slam into those bullets. And that's leaving aside counter-missiles, if you want to get into thag.

I very much disagree on the human brain being anywhere near the most perfect or effective thing possible. Evolution doesn't create perfection, it creates functionality. Occasionally it produces bloat.

[Generally me]

Yeah when I wrote that I was like. Well that's an outright lie but oh well can't be bothered to change it.

[10ebbor10]

If the guidance system is damages, it'll miss. Period. At such distances, a difference of a degree means missing by a mile. Sure, the shrapnel might spread, but that's what ERA, angled armor plates, double hulls, and pointing the cylindrical shape of your rocket directly towards the incoming debris is for. Point Defense against something like that isn't too hard. You have a long ways to see it coming, after all, and it'll be accelerating at, what, a thousand Gs? And yes, it'll get destroyed by those 'slow' bullets. ETC weapons can pack a punch, railguns(albeit ones that break after every shot) are already a thing, and it'll be affectes by it's own relative velocity causing it to be the one to slam into those bullets. And that's leaving aside counter-missiles, if you want to get into thag.

Remember, closing speed of 24 km/s. Your close in weapon system has to fire at a small target coming in at an extremely high velocity, with a rather small size. You'll have to saturate an large area of space in order to be reasonably certain of stopping it. Depleting the weaponry would be relatively easy.

On a side note, the missile won't be accelerating when it comes in range of the CIWS. There's no point, as there's no friction. The only thing it would be doing is minute course adjustments to evade defenses, or to hit the craft.

(Also, ERA, armor plates, double hull. Going to be prohibitively expensive to launch all that.)

Now, back to the original point. CIWS don't matter more for long range than they do for short range. The only factor is how much money someone wants to throw at it.