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[Peradon]

Everyone: For this game mode, when is the ideal time to mass claim and reveal the results of night actions?

I'm not sure exactly. LyLo and MyLo for sure, but before that, I have no idea.

Ah, but how do you define LyLo and MyLo when you don't know how many scum there are and how many kills they possess?

Here's hoping for some more flavor to indicate, that, though.

Good point. I really have no idea then. When everyone feels panicked?

[Mephansteras]

The Scribe's Tally Sheet
birdy51: Cheeetar
Peradon: Jack AT, Persus13, TheDarkStar
TheDarkStar: Peradon


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today

[spruce]

Jack AT
origamiscienceguy (Town Guardsman claim)
flabort (Town Sexton counterclaim) (0) birdy
Persus13
Peradon (3) Persus, flabort, DarkStar, Jack
TheDarkStar (1) Peradon
roo
spruce
birdy51 (Town Priest claim) (1) Cheeetar
Cheesecake/Cheeetar
Epenguin/Tiruin

ToonyMan, Town Fortune Teller, decapitated N1
Deus Asmoth, Town Dreamwalker, slain N1 by dagger
Teneb, Necromancer, threat to Town, killed D1 by Guard bolt, inspected by 2 others

OK, so I guess birdy was won over by flabort's formula (#262, #266)? I thought it was awful, actually, even though I seem to have benefited from it. I thought it was one of those try-to-hard Scum-looking-Town efforts that often get thrown into a game to, well, either win over an opponent or resolve a Scum theatrical production. But then flabort didn't really seem to be under much pressure, so why bring out the math? Is it a normal flabort thing? 

And what is this “Piety” thing of which birdy posts? Seems more like RPG flavour than a mafia game element. Is it usual to have a GM use a 12-sided die to calculate the probability of role set actions? I realise birdy even documented an example, but I would think a “priest” would either be effective or broken? Sounds an awful lot like hedging to me, for an “Ooops,  I resurrected a bad guy – not my fault”.

I don't think the flabort/birdy interactions are Scum theatre though – it's too persistent. They both bring up excellent questions for the other, but one of them seems a tad too defensive. I want to think it's flabort, but then an unvoting birdy says, “Hey, everybody, I'm really worried at the dearth of votes – y'all vote somebody so I'll know what to do, or rather not do 'cause I'm a Priest of unsullied hands and blood is not my thing.”

I guess we can give him a day of that, but still...

Also, who is blackmagechill, please?

Everyone: For this game mode, when is the ideal time to mass claim and reveal the results of night actions?

I come from sites where GMs often frown on mass-claiming and insure fairness through safe-claims or randomising roles to an extent where any role or character claim might be suspect. Earlier posts here have me thinking mass-claiming here is perhaps the most standard way a game is resolved. If that's the case and the GM allows, then it becomes not an if but a when, as you say, and it's a matter of believability. Claims are better verified when a little substance accompanies them, which, in a game this size, translates to about Day 3 or 4 for me. Though, I also come from sites where Town/Village players generally make reliable, truthful claims - where things often don't go very well when good guys lie or try some wild gambit.

And I've cried about it before, but here I am, so...
I'm just used to more structure than a floating time schedule – I now likely won't be around at all tomorrow 'cause the game has already gone longer than I expected and I have other scheduled games. It's no worries. I'm more used to players like roo or Epenguin/Tiruin or whoever actually playing the game or getting subbed out or godkilled. I guess now I'll have to bank on your generosity as well.

Maybe that's just my way of assuring birdy, “Hey, I'm happy to vote, if only I knew who was playing the game”. Since flabort's at least around, and Peradon, are we better off actually voting a player for scumminess or whittling down the no-shows? I prefer the former.

[birdy51]

Shit. I never posted my reads like a thought I did. They were meant to go out with my post last night, but I guess I failed to get it to the top of my post. Well. Here they are now.\

It's a bit hastily put together, but I've got a few small things that caught my eye.

Lean Town

Jack A T - One of the more active voices. Seems to be taking the game seriously and has an eye for detail. Would be surprised if scum.

Cheesecake/Cheetar - The lack of a conversion Cult seems to be a bit of a nickel in Cheesecake's hat. But now Cheesecake is gone, and I'd like to see what a pair of fresh eyes will be able to spot.

Null Reads

Spruce - Still evil. Still new. I'd like to see a bit more assertiveness out of him. He answers questions capably when questioned, but I'm wondering when he himself is going to start slinging an accusation or two.

OSG - A bit of a noob. Honestly, I think he doesn't know what exactly he'd doing much of the time, as evidenced by his Jailor Claim. Could be scum, but I'm not feeling it yet.

TheDarkStar - Not very talkative in some respects, but an active enough player nonetheless. Quietly seems to be paying attention to the game and raises some salient points. All in all however, I feel like I haven't given him enough attention. It's something I'll have to do going forward.

Epenguin/ Tiruin - Haven't seen her around yet, but I understand why. I hope that the sun shall resume to shine upon you soon Tiruin! : (

Peradon - I've yet to be convinced he's a good lynch prospect. While not a strong player, he's been doing his part. There are a few minor things, but I think there are better people to be focusing on as suspects.

Lean Scum

Flabort - I remembered he existed and tunneled him something hard for at least a day or two. I'm going to eat these words, but even after review, I still don't trust him.

Persus13 - Still not on my trust list. I have a question to ask him following these reads. (Question already asked)

Roo - We still need to have a chat. But that requires him to be able to post. Blergh! Before I forget, may I ask when your computer issues started?

---

Spruce: In regards to Priests, I ain't making any guarantees on how the resurrection tonight will go. In the past, well-meaning priests have resurrected players as Demons and Vampires. Scum priests have also resurrected Townies as Townies, instead of a new ally to their fold. That is the innate problem with being a Priest. Generally speaking, no one but Mephensteras knows what the hell will happen. My only hope is that my in-game actions to avoid 'staining' myself transfers into a successful resurrection. It's RPGish as hell, yeah, but I think it's worth a shot.

Anyways, I don't need too much assurance of action. At this point, I've realized that prosecuting people for their tardiness is gotten me nowhere. My first attempt to pressure EPenguin into action flopped to hell and with Roo it's not likely that he'll be talking soon. So, if pressure has repeatedly failed over and over, I'm coming to realize a different approach is necessary. so... Another question.

Is there anyway where I, or another player could help build certainty on your end or otherwise lend a hand?

[Persus13]

Please stop using pseudo-math to back up your claims. It just makes what you are trying to say more difficult to read.

OSG:Why did you visit Birdy last night?

I have one of those roles where I basically just pick a name out of a hat and perform it on them since it has no strategic value until later.

...I disagree entirely with your assumption that your role has no strategic value, and am deeply concerned as to why you would have possibly given it away so easily.

He didn't say that, he said that it would be useful later, but not now.

Alright. I'm going to make a few guesses as of this game's makeup. The last game where had 14 Players was Supernatural 5. So, I'm curious to see how things match up.

Long as you keep them as guesses.

This is an odd question. If a grave is disturbed and I am dead, I assume that those would be two separate occurrences. Regardless, I have hard time imagining anything else will be playing with Graves, aside from a Ghoul, a second Necromancer, or a Warlock. However, you haven't mentioned any graves being tampered with last night and the kills heavily favored the "Rot" Cult and a Monster Hunter. I can only assume that a Ghoul doesn't exist, leaving a Warlock as the only possibility that comes to mind. They're usually benign, so I don't think it would make it necessary to take any special action.

Being killed doesn't block your night action. If you were killed, you would still rez first.

We'd just have to wait and see whether my Piety theory worked out.

I'm pretty confident your Piety theory is not true. Meph has never stated that the Priest system has changed from the first few Supernatural games.

Persus13: Why do you have Peradon voted right now? Could elaborate on the reasoning behind your vote?

I voted Peradon at the beginning of the day because he claimed he had a night action without saying what it is which is really vague. It kept on him because I've been busy. His chance thing has alos been really bothering me, although I think Jack is too focused on that. I'm not unvoting after this post because I'm most suspicious of Peradon, yourself, and Flabort, however voting you will tie the vote and voting Flabort will do nothing.

I wouldn't be so quick to rule that there isn't a Vampire scumteam.

Persus13: Why not?  As for the massclaim, no thanks.

I like keeping my options open. Until we lynch a scum or one dies in the night I will keep the possibility of a Vampire scumteam open.

And Jack is saying that from previous games it looks like the “Cult” is a “standard scumteam”. But if the previous use of that in the Supernatural series has always been with a disappearance of their targets, isn't it significant that we're looking instead at beheadings and dagger deaths? Or is the significance in that someone was able to fish out a 'disappeared' from the river?

Good point. The fishing the corpse out of the river is another point in favor of a Cult scumteam. Thanks for pointing that out.

And what is this “Piety” thing of which birdy posts? Seems more like RPG flavour than a mafia game element. Is it usual to have a GM use a 12-sided die to calculate the probability of role set actions? I realise birdy even documented an example, but I would think a “priest” would either be effective or broken? Sounds an awful lot like hedging to me, for an “Ooops,  I resurrected a bad guy – not my fault”.

The way the Priest role has worked in the past is that it can resurrect one player. However before each game the GM determines if the priest is "pious" or not. Pious Priests bring back the player with their previous role (or if they're scum they bring them back as a scum player), while impious priests bring back the player as a third party role. The priest does not know whether he's pious or not and does not learn whether his resurrection brought back a demon or not.

I don't think the flabort/birdy interactions are Scum theatre though – it's too persistent. They both bring up excellent questions for the other, but one of them seems a tad too defensive. I want to think it's flabort, but then an unvoting birdy says, “Hey, everybody, I'm really worried at the dearth of votes – y'all vote somebody so I'll know what to do, or rather not do 'cause I'm a Priest of unsullied hands and blood is not my thing.”

To be fair, not a lot of people have voted.

Also, who is blackmagechill, please?

Someone not playing the game.

I come from sites where GMs often frown on mass-claiming and insure fairness through safe-claims or randomising roles to an extent where any role or character claim might be suspect. Earlier posts here have me thinking mass-claiming here is perhaps the most standard way a game is resolved. If that's the case and the GM allows, then it becomes not an if but a when, as you say, and it's a matter of believability. Claims are better verified when a little substance accompanies them, which, in a game this size, translates to about Day 3 or 4 for me. Though, I also come from sites where Town/Village players generally make reliable, truthful claims - where things often don't go very well when good guys lie or try some wild gambit.

That last sentence is about right for us too.

Maybe that's just my way of assuring birdy, “Hey, I'm happy to vote, if only I knew who was playing the game”. Since flabort's at least around, and Peradon, are we better off actually voting a player for scumminess or whittling down the no-shows? I prefer the former.

I'm in the same boat as you are about voting off a player/ whittling down the no-shows

[flabort]

Shit. I never posted my reads like a thought I did. They were meant to go out with my post last night, but I guess I failed to get it to the top of my post. Well. Here they are now.\

Thanks. That's an interesting perspective you've taken on TDS.
But the three reads I find most interesting in your list are OSG, Roo, and Persus; mostly OSG.
For OSG, wasn't it YOU who claimed him to be Jailor, thus giving him a valid fake-claim if he turns out not to be? And yet here you have him listed as claiming. I've also played quite a few games with OSG, I wouldn't count him a noob; no more than me at this point. He has been amazing at being a doctor and a cop in the past.
As far as Roo and Persus go, why specifically don't you trust them?

[Cheeetar]

Flabort: Who would you say are the people you believe are scum at the moment?

Already explained this. I am the Town Priest. I'd prefer to keep hands off lynches in order to not stain my hands with someone innocent in case Piety is effected by lynchings and mislynchings. As for Persus13, I'm still interested in pursuing that course of action, as evidenced by the post I was just preparing.

Would you explain why you believe this about priests, and what piety exactly means in Supernatural? Also, about your 'pursuing Persus13'-

Spoiler: Pursuing (click to show/hide)

A Question Asked

Persus13: Why do you have Peradon voted right now? Could elaborate on the reasoning behind your vote?

This is a bit of a weak question- it's vague enough to be asked of just about anybody who's voting for somebody. Do you believe his vote on Peradon is particularly without merit- what makes you question it? What makes you question him at all?

Also... A curiosity question.

Cheetar: How do you prefer going after your suspects? One at a time or as one mass conglomerate?

I prefer a narrow focus.

[Cheeetar]

Persus13:

A warning to new priests. Be careful with your power. Use it wisely. Sometimes it is better that your power go unused then risking bringing back a demon because it can end up wasting a day or power roles that can be used elsewhere.

Has a priest ever used resurrect in such a way that aids their win condition, and if so how infrequent has this been?

Though, I also come from sites where Town/Village players generally make reliable, truthful claims - where things often don't go very well when good guys lie or try some wild gambit.

I believe that this is also true here- the few times crazy gambits have made things better for town are generally the exception that prove the rule.

[birdy51]

Full disclosure. I'm getting miffed at every time someone mentions me as not doing anything. I've made my arguments, and frankly they were ignored by nearly every player in lieu of something I said on Day 1. I'm pushing for something to happen. Anything. Frankly, I am getting desperate and annoyed. I feel frayed to bits and it's only a matter of time before I plunge into full idiot mode.

Persus13: Are you only bothered by his soft-claim? Because other people have claimed.

---

Please stop using pseudo-math to back up your claims. It just makes what you are trying to say more difficult to read.

OSG:Why did you visit Birdy last night?

I have one of those roles where I basically just pick a name out of a hat and perform it on them since it has no strategic value until later.

...I disagree entirely with your assumption that your role has no strategic value, and am deeply concerned as to why you would have possibly given it away so easily.

He didn't say that, he said that it would be useful later, but not now.

What are you trying to prove with this statement? I believe that his role is absolutely useful now and that he shouldn't have revealed it.

Alright. I'm going to make a few guesses as of this game's makeup. The last game where had 14 Players was Supernatural 5. So, I'm curious to see how things match up.

Long as you keep them as guesses.

What are you getting at here?

We'd just have to wait and see whether my Piety theory worked out.

I'm pretty confident your Piety theory is not true. Meph has never stated that the Priest system has changed from the first few Supernatural games.

And I'm pretty confident you linked Jim Groovster, not Meph. As far as I know, Meph hasn't stated anything about the Priest role, so I'm to interpret it the best I can.

---

Shit. I never posted my reads like a thought I did. They were meant to go out with my post last night, but I guess I failed to get it to the top of my post. Well. Here they are now.\

Thanks. That's an interesting perspective you've taken on TDS.
But the three reads I find most interesting in your list are OSG, Roo, and Persus; mostly OSG.
For OSG, wasn't it YOU who claimed him to be Jailor, thus giving him a valid fake-claim if he turns out not to be? And yet here you have him listed as claiming. I've also played quite a few games with OSG, I wouldn't count him a noob; no more than me at this point. He has been amazing at being a doctor and a cop in the past.
As far as Roo and Persus go, why specifically don't you trust them?

Call it my own read on OSG. I haven't been impressed. I claimed him, because he had said he visited me. Jailors were the only character that I could think of at the time that ever visit anyone and announce their presence. I realized that it is a fallacy, but only in that I never mentioned the Devil Role.

Roo is easy. He hasn't been around and never lended much weight to his arguments when he has been around. Until I'm given reason, I'm suspicious of him. As for Persus, I just don't. Something about the know-it-all attitude that he takes rubs me the wrong way. There is no deduction or advanced reasoning I can find in his speech. It's all statements. Take a look at his post. Every one of his sentences. Periods. Further, he hasn't backed up his claim to my standards. He has done nothing to back up his case on his case on Peradon as well, which is negligent and lazy at best.

---

Cheetar: I also prefer a narrow focus, mostly because my mind will go scattered if I don't. It's already scattered right now and frustrated.

Anyways. Yes. I think his vote is without merit in that he hasn't backed it up. It screams of a lack of effort that I cannot ignore.

[Cheeetar]

General question: Have there been millers in this game before?

[birdy51]

No. Not that I know of anyways.

[spruce]

Has a priest ever used resurrect in such a way that aids their win condition, and if so how infrequent has this been?

I knew I liked you. I don't know how previous Supernatural games have gone. It looks like maybe there is a strong RPG element. But it bothers me that birdy seems to be wanting to vote flabort but claiming the best 'Priest' strategy is to nullify his own vote, lest he be wrong. I guess there's a role advantage, even win-condition advantage to using a 'Priest' power before one dies, but it seems that's not how other games have gone.

I still think flabort looks worse trying to force math logic that clearly is skewed before any formulas are engaged. But, so you'd pick birdy over flabort? I simply can't sort the nullifying of one's own vote.

[birdy51]

...This is odd. Cheeetar is saying that I'm suspicious of Persus13 and should probably be voting him if I am. Spruce is saying I'm suspicious of Flabort and should probably be voting for him if I am.

These two people are now talking to each other about it and it makes me happy. I don't know why.

However, truth is I'm more suspicious of both of them than I ever will be of Peradon, and am voting for neither in some masochistic and admittedly misplaced desire to stick to my guns and simultaneously not wanting to contradict my past statements. I am nothing but a fool in that respect if it turns out my pet theory is in fact a dud duck. Even then, however I have to wonder if I'm being unreasonable, since I'm already flip-flopping around the place already like a half dead fish gasping for air and for the water that makes sense.

Anyways. Another note that interests me. I wonder if a triangle of mutual distrust and suspicion is forming. If Flabort also mutually distrusts Persus13 as Persus13 distrusts Flabort, we will be having a good old fashioned Mexican Showdown here soon. It will be glorious, and hopefully at least one of us will flip scum. Otherwise, we all end up with egg on our face for allowing communication to deteriorate this much.

[flabort]

Flabort: Who would you say are the people you believe are scum at the moment?

Any one of the low-activity people could be scum; No evidence to the contrary. Tiruin and Roo, maybe Cheeetar (but he's got higher activity than either of them). But you're asking who I suspect.

I suspect Peradon a little but have no evidence of him being scummy to support my suspicions, just the not following his strategy that he declared at the start of the game and very soft claim. Same with Birdy about not having evidence (only the claim for OSG), but not quite as suspicious as Peradon. I suspect OSG, partially for letting Birdy claim for him and partially his combination of non-seriousness and low activity at the start of the game - and while he cites life issues for his reason for not posting (Until Friday tomorrow), it's a convenient excuse for not posting his reads when I asked.

I wouldn't be surprised if the scum team were OSG, and either Birdy and a Lurker, Peradon and a Lurker, or two Lurkers (where Lurker refers to Tiruin, Roo, Cheetar, and/or TDS).

Roo: Have you finished reading yet? Also, please answer the following:

Roo: Reads lists, please.

Tiruin: Where are you in catching up on your reading? Have you formed any suspicions yet?

Peradon: You missed my question.

Peradon:I'm not entirely swayed to your case against TDS, due to there being some soft flaws in it, but I'm willing to consider it. Is there some more evidence that TDS is looking for an easy lynch?

Cheeetar: Why did you vote right off the bat, and who else do you suspect?

Persus13 If you're most suspicious of Peradon, Birdy, and me, why not address me with a direct question or two? You've spent most of your time addressing Birdy, and I saw a couple Peradon quotes, but you didn't ask me anything. Why is that?

Anyways. Another note that interests me. I wonder if a triangle of mutual distrust and suspicion is forming. If Flabort also mutually distrusts Persus13 as Persus13 distrusts Flabort, we will be having a good old fashioned Mexican Showdown here soon. It will be glorious, and hopefully at least one of us will flip scum. Otherwise, we all end up with egg on our face for allowing communication to deteriorate this much.

No, I saw him as being fairly competent and townish. Only his recent behavior is odd (see question addressed to him above), but I don't suspect him at this time. I don't trust him, either, but I don't suspect him of being scum right now.

[spruce]

flabort: What do you think of your own math? Is it characteristic of your play in other games?

Jack AT
origamiscienceguy (Town Guardsman claim) (1) flabort
flabort (Town Sexton counterclaim) (1) birdy, spruce
Persus13
Peradon (3) Persus, flabort, DarkStar, Jack
TheDarkStar (1) Peradon
roo
spruce
birdy51 (Town Priest claim) (1) Cheeetar
Cheesecake/Cheeetar
Epenguin/Tiruin

ToonyMan, Town Fortune Teller, decapitated N1
Deus Asmoth, Town Dreamwalker, slain N1 by dagger
Teneb, Necromancer, threat to Town, killed D1 by Guard bolt, inspected by 2 others