Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Neonivek]

Never use lock on with a gunner for the purpose of shooting. Using it for a quick snap at their position maybe. As a gunner, you really have to aim at those weak spots to do damage. Especially for bowguns due to limited ammo.

Does the game still have light and heavy  bowguns?

And are light ones worth using now or are they still terrible "weapons you use because you are inexperienced with the game"?

[majikero]

Light guns get rapid shots and mobility. Heavy gets siege mode for fuck off levels of firepower that will eat all the bullets.

I really like elemental heavies for that siege mode. Siege mode roots you in place and loads up like half your bullet supply for maximum dakka.

[SirAaronIII]

Yeah, there are still both light and heavy. Light is actually very powerful if you can aim shots right and/or use the right types of shots. They've always been worth using (okay maybe not in FU but definitely in 3U).

Here's a sweet video of a guy using raw LBG on a level 140 Shagaru Magala.

[Neonivek]

Solo is definitely a different story mind you.

Then again a lot of things are.

[Ygdrad]

Yeah, there are still both light and heavy. Light is actually very powerful if you can aim shots right and/or use the right types of shots. They've always been worth using (okay maybe not in FU but definitely in 3U).

Here's a sweet video of a guy using raw LBG on a level 140 Shagaru Magala.

O.O is that ability to reload shots with a roll/dodge innate to all LBG's?

Edit: Seems to be a special ability from the Seregios gunner set. I know its weapons reload sharpness every 5 rolls too.

[Ygdrad]

Ok, so I fell in love with the charge blade. Ridiculously overpowered, but loads of fun, just a shame the village quest fights are so short with it.

Capcom really gave that thing too much of, well, everything. It has pretty much every sort of utility available in the game aside from healing or the insect glaive/lance's jump/mount attack. It can block as strong as a lance, it has really quick animation-cancelling sidestep dodges, it has mobility, with impact phial it has the highest knockout ability of any weapon, impact phials deal true damage which allow you to deal damage/break high defense parts, it has huge range and a wide array of attacks to choose from to hit stuff in any situation, some of its moves have some auto-guard frames and after a block you can counter straight into your most powerful axe move without having to combo up to it first. It has the most powerful single attack in the game while also currently having the highest dps.

Jump-attacks and hunting horn heals/buffs aside, this thing has EVERYTHING.

[Baneling]

...Do you have any actual numeric proof of any of those claims? Because it could just be the fact that the village quests are, by design, very easy compared to anything else.

[Neonivek]

A weapon gaining outright superiority for a game (or two) isn't anything unusual, nor is weapon unbalance anything unique to this game.

We aren't that far from the time Lances were the absolute kings to the point where they had to entirely redesign monsters from the ground up just to nerf them.

Charge Blades are too popular to be nerfed too badly so they will probably always be a great weapon and never fall into the pile of weapons that may or may not be worth using in a Monster Hunter game. If anything they might try to uplift weapons to its level.

Heck it is one of the reasons I want Sword and Shield and Double Swords to be combined into one single weapon. It would make them far more consistent game to game.

[Baneling]

Yeah, I know that - case in point, Longsword in Tri, that thing was so ludicrously better than anything else and I loved it - but as far as I know there hasn't been damage formula data-mining for 4U/4G. That in mind, there's no real way to determine how good weapons are except in the way you could tell greatswords do a lot of damage because you can kill things in <10 charged hits.

[Neonivek]

Mind you there is more to weapons then just outright damage and even DPS... at least in Monster Hunter.

The reason Lances used to be King wasn't because their DPS was particular amazing but because in the first game not only did everyone have their heads as a sizable weak point but they stunned quite a bit. It meant that yes they did do the most damage, but even if that wasn't the case their ability to constantly stun monsters made them invaluable even if they were weaker. That and the Lances ability to target the head, its stability allowing you to easily reposition to relentlessly attack it, and its ability to stay there even under attack all helped.

One of the reason why some weapons aren't "very good" has more to do with the fact that they are pretty much relegated to stabbing a monster's legs, which is almost always a strong point and never a weak point, often coupled with being completely defenseless at the same time... and quite a few of them in theory at least have high damage.

[chaoticag]

So far haven't tried the charge blade due to it needing some monster fluid. Know where to get some, but yeah. It doesn't quite seem to be the king of weapons yet though. The lance still deals it's own special kind of damage where it checks the lower of impact and cut resistance, and I think elements on lances are moderately stronger. The Great Sword can hands down deal the most alpha with a strong full charge, which would pretty much take a huge chunk off a sleeping opponent's health. If you're on your own, the longsword still looks good so long as you're not up against a flyer, since I think keeping your tempo up means more DPS than most other weapons, plus it has a built in dodging attack for when you've gotten monster patterns down. Sword and shield gets item use with weapon out, as well as higher status an elemental, making it a pretty good support weapon that lets you exploit flash and sonic bombs faster (note to self, see if a sleep status sword and shield combos well with a great sword). I think just about the only thing that's lacking to me is the dual swords, but it seems to have strong early game potential at least.

Other than that, seeing people play Monster Hunter 4, they pretty much said they'd not play with someone using the charge blade due to collateral knockback. So yeah, might be good for solo, but I think being a multi-weapon master is best in the long run, as every weapon has drawbacks that you might want another weapon to fill, and causing friendly fire can be a big deal if you plan on playing multiplayer.

[Neonivek]

note to self, see if a sleep status sword and shield combos well with a great sword

Well ignoring that sleep is a rather resisted status effect that can break early (I prefer Stun personally). The larger issue with status effect weapons is if I remember correctly. Monsters get more resistant to a status effect every time it proxies. This is ignoring when a monster is outright immune to it.

That and the Bow Gun can do it better as it is anyhow if your willing to make the bullets. Mostly because bow guns can hit the non-leg section of a monster.

I think being a multi-weapon master is best in the long run, as every weapon has drawbacks that you might want another weapon to fill, and causing friendly fire can be a big deal if you plan on playing multiplayer.

To me that is more of a design flaw if the game outright makes certain weapons more usable against certain enemies (ignoring small ones but they are an exception). Though it is really more of like how the Great Sword was in the first game. You could probably learn to not hit your allies.

Though the Charge Blade against Kirin wouldn't be a bad idea even on multiplayer, if only because of how that fight works.

[Ozyton]

Okay I've been playing lance a bit and someone's advice here actually helped me (I am too lazy to check who). I was always under the impression that there was a very short window of time to do side/backsteps out of an attack before you got stuck in a 'returning to idle' animation, but apparently you can do them at just about any point after the attack. I can actually dodge attacks more reliably now that I know I can time them instead of hoping for the best.

I also love the verticality in this game, it's so well done compared to the underwater sections in Tri and mounting is awesome and incredibly useful. However I've found the lance's jump attack great for mounting (at least so far with these smaller monsters) once I've knocked them over I don't have any really powerful charge attacks to unleash on them, so in terms of multiplayer I'd mainly be useful for getting the monster on the ground but after that it's back to poke poke poke.

Has anybody mentioned expeditions yet? I've done a couple and the only quests it's given me have been to hunt Kut-Ku or occasionally a Velocidrome. Then again I'm still at 4 star village quests (I am OCD and need to do every single quest on the list and I'm getting sidetracked a lot >__> ).

[Ygdrad]

So far haven't tried the charge blade due to it needing some monster fluid. Know where to get some, but yeah. It doesn't quite seem to be the king of weapons yet though. The lance still deals it's own special kind of damage where it checks the lower of impact and cut resistance, and I think elements on lances are moderately stronger. The Great Sword can hands down deal the most alpha with a strong full charge, which would pretty much take a huge chunk off a sleeping opponent's health. If you're on your own, the longsword still looks good so long as you're not up against a flyer, since I think keeping your tempo up means more DPS than most other weapons, plus it has a built in dodging attack for when you've gotten monster patterns down. Sword and shield gets item use with weapon out, as well as higher status an elemental, making it a pretty good support weapon that lets you exploit flash and sonic bombs faster (note to self, see if a sleep status sword and shield combos well with a great sword). I think just about the only thing that's lacking to me is the dual swords, but it seems to have strong early game potential at least.

Other than that, seeing people play Monster Hunter 4, they pretty much said they'd not play with someone using the charge blade due to collateral knockback. So yeah, might be good for solo, but I think being a multi-weapon master is best in the long run, as every weapon has drawbacks that you might want another weapon to fill, and causing friendly fire can be a big deal if you plan on playing multiplayer.

The lance may pick the best damage type, but the elemental discharges from the impact phial deals a sizable portion of your damage as true damage. The GS does not in fact have the highest alpha-strike, the CB does by a LOT when you have your shield/axe boosted and do an ultra super elemental attack with 5 phials, not only that but this attack will deal 500KO value instantly knocking out anything that isn't KO-immune so you can go and give it a second round of beating, the GS doesn't even compare to the brutality of the CB's fully charged super move and if you don't want the KO you can just take one with an elemental phial to deal ludicrous damage of the element they're weak to. I've played both offline and online with people and so far not a single thing survived a fully charged CB super move to the head while asleep, hell they have issues surviving it when they're limping before going to sleep. The LS has good dps with a good rotation, but if you have the axe in boosted mode and keep alternating between the X and A attack you'll find you'll tear the monster apart in no time flat. The LS may have those "dodgy" sideways/backwards moves but unless it changed in MH4U they don't actually have invincibility frames. The CB has attacks with blocking frames, the mode switches have blocking frames in them too, with the boost not only will you block as well as a lance, but doing so also causes a phial explosion to emanate from the shield for free, dealing damage and KO(or elemental damage) to the monster, potentially knocking it out(knocks out rathian in 5 charges/bites/fireballs into your shield), to make the whole offensive defense thing even sillier you can chain right into the CB's most powerful move(s) out of a block.

The SnS is superior for status effect and item usage though, not sure about elemental weakness exploitation since the elemental phials are kind of ludicrous.

Here's some random video of a guy dominating Teostra with a CB while simply tanking him to his face, he didn't even use the strongest form of the super move, the ultra burst(the lesser form he uses costs less to use and is more sustainable/keeps higher dps) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBZJaNePyc4 teostra is falling down and getting knocked down left and right.



MATH TIME!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The general weapon damage formula for physical damage is this: (weapon displayed power/weapon factor)*move value*hit effectiveness

GS factor 4.8
CB factor 3.6

GS down slash move value  .48
gs full charge 1.15


CB down slash move value  .47
CB burst 3 move(or super) .90 + 3 blasts, each blast is 0.10 raw as true unresisted damage, so 90 cutting and 30 true damage, already beats the GS
now lets get silly and check out the ultra burst
.25 + .99 + 1 + 5 blasts at 0.10 each as true damage and you get... 2.24 + .5 as true damage(oh and 500 KO damage, just to put this in context, Rathian's initial KO threshold is 150)

so
GS full charge 1.15(this is the number for the stronger charge variant too)
CB Ultra Burst 2.24 + 0.5 as true damage and WILL knock out the monster, letting you wail on him or set up a second ultra burst

These numbers don't mean too much though since we haven't applied the weapon factors or calculated a hit against a target yet. Lets get to that shall we?

lets compare the Cera Cymmetry GS and the Ceadus Regalia CB the top contenders for both categories, both have purple sharpness so we'll keep that out of the equation

Cera Cymmetry 1536 raw -20% affinity

Ceadus Regalia 1080 raw 310 water, impact phial

GS factor is 4.8 so 1536/4.8= 320 weapon power
CB factor is 3.6 so 1080/3.6= 300 weapon power

Lets be nice and give the GS an edge by completely dismissing its negative affinity which is a net average loss of 5% damage, so technically 304 weapon power, lets also go further by completely ignoring the fact that there is 310 water on the CB(I'm also lazy and don't want to get into elemental damage math)


so without the location hit effectiveness factor, our GS full charge and CB ultra burst look like this

GS full charge: 1.15*320 cut= 368 cutting damage
CB ultra burst: 2.24*300 cut + 0.5*300 true= 672 cutting damage and 150 true damage

definitely not looking good for the GS

Now lets pick some targets, magala's head is weak to cutting, has a 0.65 cutting damage effectiveness so it should help alleviate the true damage's effect

GS: 368*0.65= 239.2 damage dealt
CB: 672*0.65+150= 586.8 damage dealt

Now lets hit something hard, like magala's body which has only 0.25 cutting damage effectiveness

GS: 368*0.25= 92 damage dealt
CB: 672*0.25+150= 318 damage dealt

This without factoring the elemental damage and the fact that you just knocked out the monster for more free damage.

^
Spoiler, the GS doesn't even get close to the CB as an alpha-strike weapon

The numbers used are sourced from various pages on gaijinhunter's website and some nice MH4U database applications. Feel free to double-check the math as I'm currently rather sleep-deprived and caffeine-fueled.

Edit: typos everywhere

[SirAaronIII]

Good on you for doing the math to back yourself up. Most people don't bother. I'll look more closely when I get up.
Don't forget Critical Draw for GS. 25% more damage, but doesn't look like it'll boost it to CB's level.
Are you sure phials are true damage? I thought only Element ones did that kind of damage.
Overall I think CB is a really strong weapon, but it takes a lot of skill to use right. Plus, those phial explosions that do so much damage can knock allies around, which can be inconvenient.
The GS triple charge is easier and faster to reliably reproduce than the ultra bursts: gotta charge phials, load them, charge shield, get more phials, and then you can finally try to land the ultra burst.
Neonivek is also right; CB was underwhelming in 4, so they fleshed guard points and added shield charging to compensate. Was it too much? Possibly. Did it need it? Definitely. Before, it had few weapon trees and was repetitive and on the weak side. I don't have firsthand experience though.

And of course, village quests are super easy. I couldn't get many Tetsucabra breaks because he just went down too fast. That's probably no small contributor to good CB times.

Heck it is one of the reasons I want Sword and Shield and Double Swords to be combined into one single weapon. It would make them far more consistent game to game.

By the way, what do you mean by this? DS and SnS are pretty different. If you just mean upgrading on the same tree (SNS sometimes branches into a DS and vice versa), I think they did have that on FU and it was pretty confusing.