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[hector13]

I think Origami is trying to deflect my attention from him to someone else. Not sure why he's worried about one person voting for him though...

Peradon has been probably the most active non-IC player in this game, and he's one of two players other than Origami that I have expressed doubt over (your voting pattern has been quite... erratic, Peradon, though we've already been over that)

Why do you seem so worried over my vote, Origami?

[Nerjin]

I won't be available today or tomorrow.

[Jim Groovester]

I'm looking at the thread now but it may take me some time to put together a post. I'll be working on it.

As much as I hate to ask this, does this mean we will be seeing an extension? Town apathy does not seem to be setting in and getting some play from that slot, as well as a few others (Looking at all your lurkers. Contribute!) would be good.

Don't extend on my account.

[origamiscienceguy]

Why do you seem so worried over my vote, Origami?

I'm not worried about it. Getting voted happens all the time in mafia games. I was simply asking your reasoning behind it.

[Comrade Shamrock]

Scripten:

Comrade, you are not reading the game very closely.

Why thank you, I appreciate being insulted as much as the next person.

You seem to be twisting mastahcheese's words now. You say because he's not an IC he can't offer advice.

Mastahcheese should not be engaged in telling newer players what to do from a position of authority, no. The IC role is there specifically to avoid experienced players steamrolling newbies by giving them poor or leading advice.

Hypocritical

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Good answer. Word to the wise. Don't worry so much about keeping yourself alive. Getting mislynched -is- anti-town, if you are a townie. That said, if you're hunting scum and progressing the game state, you are not likely to get mislynched, even if you do make a mistake or two. Don't let fear of messing up interfere with your play and you'll likely avoid being mislynched.

Use your vote to pressure people. If you find a player scummier than the others, examine why you feel that way. Then, confront them and vote them to show you're serious. Course, that doesn't mean toss your vote around like it's nothing. Remember that the power your vote holds is only as strong as the determination to root out scum behind it.

You were not the IC there. You offered advice stemming from your authority as an experienced player.

Now what on earth is wrong with this? Both of the official teacher-players are attacking the same person. Now Cheese could be saying both of you are a team, he's doing something in particular we should be paying attention to or that even the mighty can fall. When I read it I did not get the implication that the ICs were scum. It was more like

"Gather round kids, this is an important event and I want to pay particular attention"

All newer players should be paying attention to the ICs regardless of what is going on in the game. Furthermore, new players should be paying attention to the entire game, not just places where players asserting authority tell them to do so.

Not to mention, that particular quote was taken as having implied assertions that other players have caught onto.

Yes I'm sure it does. As does this.

Are you SURE you're a newbie, Scint? =.=

I don't think he's using it as an excuse. His play has got him into a bad situation and he's trying to get the rest of us to pay attention to how you should try and get out of it.

Is that how you're reading it?

Because I'm reading it is "I'm in a bad spot, so I need to come up with some wild excuses to backpedal out of my reckless scumplay." What is the town motivation you seem to see from Mastahcheese's play?

Well he seems to be saying that scum can and will use the lynch if they can.

And the mislynch is the scum's second weapon, in case you forgot.

He's saying don't rely on the PR's

Origami: Sorry for butting in on your question to Peredur, but did you take into account the possibility of the person that's claiming cop might be the scum?
Especially if they suspect a jailkeeper is in the game, because that drops the odds of there being a real cop from 66% to 50%.

Also you know that theory of his about you distancing him so he'd kick the bucket if you went. It was a niggling thought in the back of my head. Since this has now developed into a full blown lynching. I'm inclined to believe it now.

So only the ICs are going to be doing the teaching? I don't know how to put this in words. Seems like setting up authority.

My role as an IC is 100% separate from my role as a player. So yes, when I am acting as IC, I am acting from authority. As a player, I am instantly wary of other players trying to lead newbies by giving "advice" like this. (That is, using the "I'm an experienced player showing players what not to do, not scum!")

I don't mean like you setting up teacher credentials, I mean you setting up some kind of dictatorship where you shove people into line for questioning you.

I'm also avoiding using my IC-text here because you are directly attacking me as an IC. I'm considering avoiding taking on that role in future games in which we play together if this continues. Save that for banter, post-game, or elsewhere.

And you used it earlier why?

I really hate this. It says to me "I'm pushing a case I'm not scum. I would eliminate who I wanted dead with the NK. Trust me."

This is scum 101, actually. There's no reason for scum to try to lead the lynch on a more threatening player when they could just get an easy lynch and NK the threat.

No reason? Then that's an excellent reason to do it.

Scripten you seem to be punishing mastahcheese for things you yourself have done in past games albeit in a less flamboyant manner. This is hypocritical which I think means something has changed.

Peradon:

Actually, he's paying more attention that practically any other person here, because he's actually taking the time to ask about it, and offer input.

Name one other non-IC who's actually taken the time to do this, beyond simply parroting something that's already been said.

So, his posting-once-a-day-definately-not-a-lurker is paying more attention? I dont see the logic in that...

I love you too.

I cant really get into this argument, because it concerns the authority structure in BM games, and seeing as how this is my first mafia game ever, I dont know anything about....

Mastahcheese, why have you resorted to insulting scripten? Is it because you are trying to put doubt into the rest of the players on how good scriptens scumhunting is?

Congratulations, you're in it now. Now since you've engaged you could post some more thoughts as to what you think is going on. More opinions is more info for us.

[Peradon]

I love you too.

Congratulations, you're in it now. Now since you've engaged you could post some more thoughts as to what you think is going on. More opinions is more info for us.

Yeah yeah, I know I said I wouldnt get into it, but I did.....

But seriously, I know nothing of how the command structure of BM's work, so I cant say much. All I can say is that Scripten appears to have taken mastah's so called attempts to teach us personally. Mastah's intentions werent very clear though, and I get the sense that he was giving that crazy theory, and acting like a scum, so that he could pump out that last question, mainly asking why he was overtly acting like scum, if it was something that scum dont do. This puts us in a WIFOM situation, which if you ask me, is pretty scummy. WIFOM voids an entire conversation, making it useless, and puts even odds on the table. Meaning we cant know anything for sure now....

So, Scripten, just an IC question: What do you do in the event of a WIFOM?

[Scripten]

Comrade Shamrock:

Why thank you, I appreciate being insulted as much as the next person.

Not an insult. Your post showed that you had not been paying very close attention to the game. You also have been lurking quite hard all game.

Why is your only contribution to this game with regard to this discussion?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Good answer. Word to the wise. Don't worry so much about keeping yourself alive. Getting mislynched -is- anti-town, if you are a townie. That said, if you're hunting scum and progressing the game state, you are not likely to get mislynched, even if you do make a mistake or two. Don't let fear of messing up interfere with your play and you'll likely avoid being mislynched.

Use your vote to pressure people. If you find a player scummier than the others, examine why you feel that way. Then, confront them and vote them to show you're serious. Course, that doesn't mean toss your vote around like it's nothing. Remember that the power your vote holds is only as strong as the determination to root out scum behind it.

You were not the IC there. You offered advice stemming from your authority as an experienced player.

That advice was not misleading. Mastahcheese's advice, should you call it that, is irrational and nonsensical.

Yes I'm sure it does. As does this.

Are you SURE you're a newbie, Scint? =.=

What? You make no sense here.

Well he seems to be saying that scum can and will use the lynch if they can.

And the mislynch is the scum's second weapon, in case you forgot.

Yes, they will. But using the mislynch is suboptimal when you have a mislynch already lined up, which is what I have been saying. Go back and reread my posts.

Also you know that theory of his about you distancing him so he'd kick the bucket if you went. It was a niggling thought in the back of my head. Since this has now developed into a full blown lynching. I'm inclined to believe it now.

Yes, because I'm totally busing him right now and his theory wasn't complete hogwash.

Come on, Comrade. You've played enough games now that you shouldn't be falling for this.

I don't mean like you setting up teacher credentials, I mean you setting up some kind of dictatorship where you shove people into line for questioning you.

Like I said to Mastahcheese, if you have an issue with my integrity as an IC, take it up with me outside of the game.

I'm starting to get really pissed off about this strategy. It's against the spirit of the game and the IC role. I'm intentionally not including my opinions in my IC-text, but the fact that you guys are forcing me to toe the line of acceptable IC play is not cool.

And you used it earlier why?

The IC-text is specifically there so that new players can read it with the knowledge that it is being given in a manner that is as objective as possible. That is, you can trust the IC when they are speaking using this text without fear that their role will be motivating their advice.

Which is something both you and Mastahcheese seem to be completely incapable of understanding and/or are taking advantage of to confuse the new players and cause the town to lose. If it's the former, I'm going to be talking post-game to both of you. If it's the latter, I will be speaking in a very severe tone due to the seriousness with which I take my role.

No reason? Then that's an excellent reason to do it.

Subjective. Back this up.

Scripten you seem to be punishing mastahcheese for things you yourself have done in past games albeit in a less flamboyant manner. This is hypocritical which I think means something has changed.

Punishing? What punishment?

I'm voting him because he's acting scummy. I'm chastising him because I feel that becoming combative about the IC's integrity to avoiding getting lynched is against the spirit of a newbie game, since it actively undermines the role of the IC.

[Scripten]

So, Scripten, just an IC question: What do you do in the event of a WIFOM?

This is a difficult question to answer, since the nature of WIFOM is that it's difficult to untangle. A helpful tool is Occam's razor, since taking the simplest solution requires the least amount of assumption. Assuming less means you can work through the likelihood of various events more thoroughly, since there are fewer of them. Other than that, I would recommend working from a different angle, where you aren't running into WIFOM.

[Jim Groovester]

I'm all caught up but I'm still a little shaky about what's going on. I know the general topics of discussion but not the specifics.

Since I'm thoroughly experienced I'll be offering whatever advice I feel is appropriate, but since I'm not an IC you technically don't have to listen to me.

Which is more important: teaching the players, or winning the game?
I'm attempting to show people how to deal with a person who is acting unreasonably, and irrationally, which is a situation they will come across if they keep playing Mafia. If you neglect to educate on how such a volitile situation should be approached, you're leaving them ill prepared for games beyond this.

I admire your commitment to this demonstration if that's really what your intent is. You're the unreasonable and irrational person, right?

Is that all this is is about? Just you being unreasonable to make a point?

If I were the IC I think I'd rather you played earnestly than make an example of yourself.

ComradeShamrock, I don't understand your argument against Scripten. Could you summarize it for me, pretty please?

From the looks of it, you seem to be accusing Scripten of abusing his position as IC. I've been IC for Beginner's Mafias several times of my own, and Scripten is most certainly not abusing his position. It's somewhat common (and sometimes even traditional) to suspect the ICs of abusing their position but I've never personally observed an instance of that happening.

Mastahcheese, that is a very plausible observation. At least the part about scripten. Hector and Scripten seems a bit far-fetched though.

Vote Scripten

This is a lazy bandwagon if I ever saw one.

What's your argument for Scripten being scum?

[origamiscienceguy]

So am I scum with Hector13 or am I scum with Nerjin? Or is OSG scum with me?

See, this is why we don't do associatives before flips. You start looking silly.

This seems to me like scripten is trying to remove Mastahchees’s ethos. By trying to make mastahchees’s arguments sound unsolid, he seems like he is trying to defer anybody outside of their argument off of him.

[Jim Groovester]

But mastahcheese is voting for Scripten, so why would Scripten trying to refute mastahcheese's arguments be somehow scummy?

[origamiscienceguy]

I think that scripten is trying to make Mastahchees's arguments against him seem not well thought out and rickety. In oder to keep any other players from getting on his case. Obviously it wont affect mastahcheese.

[hector13]

I'm curious to know how else you expect Scripten to defend himself.

Interpretive dance?

[Peradon]

I think that scripten is trying to make Mastahchees's arguments against him seem not well thought out and rickety. In oder to keep any other players from getting on his case. Obviously it wont affect mastahcheese.

If you read mastah's arguments, he basically is insulting Scripten. It looks as if he knew that what he was trying wouldnt work, so he deflected the argument away from the actual topic, and onto something else, namely the inadequacy of scriptens teaching. This seems very scummy. Plus, mastah led the argument into a WIFOM situation, which never helps.

So, I think I am going to unvote Zormod and vote Mastahcheese.

[Jim Groovester]

I think that scripten is trying to make Mastahchees's arguments against him seem not well thought out and rickety. In oder to keep any other players from getting on his case. Obviously it wont affect mastahcheese.

Yeah, but why is that wrong and scummy?