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[flabort]

Votecount
Comrade Shamrock: {0}
Dani: {0}
hector13: {0}
mastahcheese: Scripten, Nerjin {2}
Nerjin: {0}
origamiscienceguy: hector13 {1}
Peradon:   {0}
Scripten:  oragamiscienceguy, mastahcheese, Comrade Shamrock  {3}
Zormod: Peradon {1}
Not voting: Zormod, Dani

Day will end Friday, January 30th, 8:00 PM SMT (GMT-7)

[origamiscienceguy]

Hector, why are you voting for me?

[flabort]

Oops, that'd be my fault because I was lazy, lurkertracker's acting up. I can't find the post in which he 'voted' now.
Oh, wait. There is a post with a vote. Good, I thought I miscounted. Carry on!

Day will end Wednesday, January 28th, 8:00 PM SMT (GMT-7)

Any reason why we are extending the time? In the OP, you said 72hrs per day. Here you have it set to 120hrs....

Weekends don't count for deadlines. So since we started on Friday, Saturday Sunday don't count, timer starts on Monday.

Just saw this, yes this is the reason.

Weekends are not counted in terms of day or night length. E.G., if a night starts at 12:00 PM Friday, it will end at 12:00 PM Monday.

[mastahcheese]

Comrade, you are not reading the game very closely.

Actually, he's paying more attention that practically any other person here, because he's actually taking the time to ask about it, and offer input.

Name one other non-IC who's actually taken the time to do this, beyond simply parroting something that's already been said.

You seem to be twisting mastahcheese's words now. You say because he's not an IC he can't offer advice.

Mastahcheese should not be engaged in telling newer players what to do from a position of authority, no. The IC role is there specifically to avoid experienced players steamrolling newbies by giving them poor or leading advice.

Did I say I was doing this from a point of authority? No. I was making an example of myself, which is nowhere near the same.
A professor that sits in front of a chalkboard, explaining the dangers of chemical reactions, is not the same as someone who lights himself on fire to demonstrate the same ideal. Clearly one would be approved by a school board, and the other would not.

One of my biggest issues with the "IC voice" (not the ICs themselves, mind you) is that it tells people that there is a "right way" and a "wrong way" to play Mafia. Which is simply false. In fact, the way you are getting on Shamrock in the way you are utterly pisses me off, because you're basically saying "I'm the teacher, he has no right to teach, and you're a fool for thinking you can learn from him!"
There is more to learn than what you are willing to teach.

If I were here to "steamroll noobs", then I'd be doing nothing but driving people away from the game. Which is the exact opposite point of this game. Why do you think I've chosen an IC, someone who I can attack in a ridiculous manner, in order to show this?

Now what on earth is wrong with this? Both of the official teacher-players are attacking the same person. Now Cheese could be saying both of you are a team, he's doing something in particular we should be paying attention to or that even the mighty can fall. When I read it I did not get the implication that the ICs were scum. It was more like

"Gather round kids, this is an important event and I want to pay particular attention"

All newer players should be paying attention to the ICs regardless of what is going on in the game. Furthermore, new players should be paying attention to the entire game, not just places where players asserting authority tell them to do so.

Not to mention, that particular quote was taken as having implied assertions that other players have caught onto.

So because he has a different opinion than the other players, he is wrong?

Need I remind you of all the many, many, many times that scum succeeded in fooling the entirety of the town, except a single person that took a step to stop them?

Disagreeing with the mob is not ignorance, and has saved more games than you've been in.

I don't think he's using it as an excuse. His play has got him into a bad situation and he's trying to get the rest of us to pay attention to how you should try and get out of it.

Is that how you're reading it?

Because I'm reading it is "I'm in a bad spot, so I need to come up with some wild excuses to backpedal out of my reckless scumplay." What is the town motivation you seem to see from Mastahcheese's play?

Actually, you're both wrong.
I'm not trying to get out of it, I'm trying to get the ICs to show you people how to properly handle a situation like this, like professionals. Of which Scripten is currently failing, because rather than come at me with logical and concise arguments, trying to debunk a clearly absurd theory, he's taking every step to incriminate me on the matter.

I will explain this.
Look back at my post, and the conspiracy theory behind it. Is the theory itself inherently scummy? No, it's just a theory.
Is it proclaiming people as scum? Yes. Is that scummy? No, even RVS questions accomplish this feat on a daily basis.
The vote could be considered scummy, sure. That's one thing you have to work on, but only Nerjin actually picked up on this.

So only the ICs are going to be doing the teaching? I don't know how to put this in words. Seems like setting up authority.

My role as an IC is 100% separate from my role as a player. So yes, when I am acting as IC, I am acting from authority. As a player, I am instantly wary of other players trying to lead newbies by giving "advice" like this. (That is, using the "I'm an experienced player showing players what not to do, not scum!")

Bullshit.
The fact that you are a human being means that there's only one person typing out both your play posts, and your IC posts.
Unless you can tear your brain in half, then you are affected by it.
This is not to say that an IC that turns out to be scum will give misleading advice, there are countless examples of this to show it isn't true, but to say it is "100% separate" is not true.

And I say this because you are handling the situation I have presented rather horribly, to be blatantly honest, and then chastising the player that disagrees with you.

I really hate this. It says to me "I'm pushing a case I'm not scum. I would eliminate who I wanted dead with the NK. Trust me."

This is scum 101, actually. There's no reason for scum to try to lead the lynch on a more threatening player when they could just get an easy lynch and NK the threat.

Um, yes there is?
That is lazy scum play, at its finest, and is a good 50-80% of the reason scum get caught. Because of this belief that scum won't take risks, because it isn't efficient, or (and I really hate when this word is used in Mafia) "optimal".

Let me turn the whole kerfuffle on its head and cram it down your maw.

If scum don't take risks, because it is suboptimal, explain, with your own reasoning, the scum motivation behind my actions.

You cannot answer this question without contradicting yourself, in at least one aspect.

[Peradon]

If scum don't take risks, because it is suboptimal, explain, with your own reasoning, the scum motivation behind my actions.

I sense a WIFOM situation coming up.....

Actually, he's paying more attention that practically any other person here, because he's actually taking the time to ask about it, and offer input.

Name one other non-IC who's actually taken the time to do this, beyond simply parroting something that's already been said.

So, his posting-once-a-day-definately-not-a-lurker is paying more attention? I dont see the logic in that...

I cant really get into this argument, because it concerns the authority structure in BM games, and seeing as how this is my first mafia game ever, I dont know anything about....

[Peradon]

If scum don't take risks, because it is suboptimal, explain, with your own reasoning, the scum motivation behind my actions.

I sense a WIFOM situation coming up.....

Actually, he's paying more attention that practically any other person here, because he's actually taking the time to ask about it, and offer input.

Name one other non-IC who's actually taken the time to do this, beyond simply parroting something that's already been said.

So, his posting-once-a-day-definately-not-a-lurker is paying more attention? I dont see the logic in that...

I cant really get into this argument, because it concerns the authority structure in BM games, and seeing as how this is my first mafia game ever, I dont know anything about....




I really messed that up, so I posted it again with a better format....

[Scripten]

Did I say I was doing this from a point of authority? No. I was making an example of myself, which is nowhere near the same.

A professor that sits in front of a chalkboard, explaining the dangers of chemical reactions, is not the same as someone who lights himself on fire to demonstrate the same ideal. Clearly one would be approved by a school board, and the other would not.

So why light yourself on fire?

One of my biggest issues with the "IC voice" (not the ICs themselves, mind you) is that it tells people that there is a "right way" and a "wrong way" to play Mafia. Which is simply false. In fact, the way you are getting on Shamrock in the way you are utterly pisses me off, because you're basically saying "I'm the teacher, he has no right to teach, and you're a fool for thinking you can learn from him!"
There is more to learn than what you are willing to teach.

The point of the IC voice is to give advice from a relatively objective standpoint. If you are not an IC, then, until post-game, any advice you give is subject to the role you are given. I'm not saying just that your methods are questionable. (I believe they are, but that is a moot point since you are not an IC and are not giving IC-talk advice.) I'm saying that your explanation, that your actions are not scummy because you're trying to teach the newbies, is not justifiable in the terms of this game.

If I were here to "steamroll noobs", then I'd be doing nothing but driving people away from the game. Which is the exact opposite point of this game. Why do you think I've chosen an IC, someone who I can attack in a ridiculous manner, in order to show this?

You're trying to push newbies to pile onto a wagon you're pushing with a ridiculous case. Since I am a mislynch, that is still working against the inexperience of newbies to defeat their team.

So because he has a different opinion than the other players, he is wrong?

Need I remind you of all the many, many, many times that scum succeeded in fooling the entirety of the town, except a single person that took a step to stop them?

Disagreeing with the mob is not ignorance, and has saved more games than you've been in.

I made an assertion that your statement had undertones that have been noticed. It is not only because there are a number of other players that his defense doesn't work, but it does support that I'm not just seeing things.

Actually, you're both wrong.
I'm not trying to get out of it, I'm trying to get the ICs to show you people how to properly handle a situation like this, like professionals. Of which Scripten is currently failing, because rather than come at me with logical and concise arguments, trying to debunk a clearly absurd theory, he's taking every step to incriminate me on the matter.

Thank you for insulting my play. I don't need to waste my time "debunking" your obviously cockamamie theory. You need to make arguments to prove that your case means something. Burden of proof lies on the accuser.

Bullshit.
The fact that you are a human being means that there's only one person typing out both your play posts, and your IC posts.
Unless you can tear your brain in half, then you are affected by it.
This is not to say that an IC that turns out to be scum will give misleading advice, there are countless examples of this to show it isn't true, but to say it is "100% separate" is not true.

And I say this because you are handling the situation I have presented rather horribly, to be blatantly honest, and then chastising the player that disagrees with you.

Thanks for blatantly attacking my competence in my role as an IC.

Let me turn the whole kerfuffle on its head and cram it down your maw.

If scum don't take risks, because it is suboptimal, explain, with your own reasoning, the scum motivation behind my actions.

You cannot answer this question without contradicting yourself, in at least one aspect.

Refuge in audacity. Mafia isn't a deterministic game.

Your pedantry, erratic behavior, and intense focus on non-content is, frankly, bad play. If you are town, you are playing poorly. Your support for your actions is 1) that you are not scum because scum wouldn't be acting so recklessly or 2) that you are not scum because you are trying to teach the newbies how to react to a player being obviously and blatantly asinine, irrational, and illogical. Short answer? You lynch them because they are probably scum.

I'm also avoiding using my IC-text here because you are directly attacking me as an IC. I'm considering avoiding taking on that role in future games in which we play together if this continues. Save that for banter, post-game, or elsewhere.

[hector13]

Hector, why are you voting for me?

Initially it was the no-lynch suggestion/potential role-fishing, which you could arguably put down to inexperience, but you've not really asked many content-generating questions either:

Spoiler: RVS/RQS questions (click to show/hide)

Peradon, which team sound more fun to you, Mafia, or Town?

RQS/RVS, no real follow up, but I will concede that it's not really something you can follow up on without looking a bit mental. ("You want to play as mafia... YOU MUST BE SCUM!")

Dani, do you prefer to be the informed minority, or the uninformed majority?

RVS/RQS question, acceptable in that situation, but no real follow up despite Dani's cryptic response:

I would be the man troll who dares to slay gods tricky little other things.

You could argue that other players pointed out Dani's aversion to the question, but that tailed off and you never picked up the slack again. (basically reply #'s 55-73, #82 and #91-2 in the thread)

Spoiler: Pointless question (click to show/hide)

Scipten, since you are an IC, if you were Mafia, would it be difficult to give really good scumhunting methods to the noobs? Or would your info be completely unbiased?

This could easily just be a sort of OOC question, but it's in the middle of D1 what did you hope to gain in terms of content from that question?

Spoiler: Hypothetical (click to show/hide)

Peradon, if you were the jailkeeper, and all that was left was:
1 mafioso (who knows a jailkeeper is in the game)
1 cop who had previously revealed himself
1 townie
and yourself,
who would you protect, the cop, or one of the other 2?

Peradon answered this in the reply immediately after your question. It didn't really add anything, and you didn't follow up on the answer, or even acknowledge it.

I think all these taken together are a sign of active lurking, which only scum have reason to do. I could have forgiven it as inexperience, but for these two posts:

Spoiler: These two posts (click to show/hide)

I don't have a scumspect because I haven't found anybody who i suspect yet.
I don't think randomly voting people to see their reactions will work for me. I would rather ask some questions, and answer any that are given to me. Then read the whole conversations to make a more educated guess then just a random vote.

I can't find anybody that seems scummy though. I am a logical person that needs more info to make decisions. I am very bad at reading emotions.

And then your vote for Scripten:

Spoiler: Voting post (click to show/hide)

Mastahcheese, that is a very plausible observation. At least the part about scripten. Hector and Scripten seems a bit far-fetched though.

Vote Scripten

You based your vote on one post - which mastah seems to be confirming as ridiculous - despite saying you would go back through a conversation to get a better read on things.

[Dani]

I need to request replacement, I just can't do this right now, with my time and work going into my classes this sem. Sorry guys.

[Peradon]

Actually, you're both wrong.
I'm not trying to get out of it, I'm trying to get the ICs to show you people how to properly handle a situation like this, like professionals. Of which Scripten is currently failing, because rather than come at me with logical and concise arguments, trying to debunk a clearly absurd theory, he's taking every step to incriminate me on the matter.

Bullshit.
The fact that you are a human being means that there's only one person typing out both your play posts, and your IC posts.
Unless you can tear your brain in half, then you are affected by it.
This is not to say that an IC that turns out to be scum will give misleading advice, there are countless examples of this to show it isn't true, but to say it is "100% separate" is not true.

Mastahcheese, why have you resorted to insulting scripten? Is it because you are trying to put doubt into the rest of the players on how good scriptens scumhunting is?

I need to request replacement, I just can't do this right now, with my time and work going into my classes this sem. Sorry guys.

Sorry to see you go. I hope your classwork clears up a bit soon!

[flabort]

Dani has been replaced by Jim Groovester.
He has expressed that he will not quite yet be joining us, and I have to send him Dani's role information first.

[Scripten]

As much as I hate to ask this, does this mean we will be seeing an extension? Town apathy does not seem to be setting in and getting some play from that slot, as well as a few others (Looking at all your lurkers. Contribute!) would be good.

[origamiscienceguy]

I've noticed paradon has been posting alot.

This may be because he is trying to be the town leader, or he just doesn't want to appear like he is lurking.

[Peradon]

I've noticed paradon has been posting alot.

This may be because he is trying to be the town leader, or he just doesn't want to appear like he is lurking.

....It could also be because I'm trying to scumhunt....

[Peradon]

I've noticed paradon has been posting alot.

This may be because he is trying to be the town leader, or he just doesn't want to appear like he is lurking.

Also, what is your definition of lurking? I'm pretty sure it means NOT posting a lot. Unless you mean active-lurking which implies me not posting much content. I think I have posted content.....

Spoiler: "My Content" (click to show/hide)

This answer seems odd to me. You state that I have been giving you loaded questions, yet in this post you turn it around and say that I'm actually doing somthing town. By your own reasoning, shouldnt you, if you are town, be nitpicking me right back, instead of brushing me off?

Zormod: What is your oppinion of scripten's scumhunting of mastahcheese? Do you think he is grasping at straws, or do you think he has legitimate concern for how mastahcheese worded his questions? Or, do you think scripten is merely trying to pressure mastahcheese?

I'm trying to draw him into the game a bit. I noticed that he wasn't posting much, but looking at his forum activity shows that he has been active. This seems suspicous to me, so I was trying to draw him in, maybe get a little more info on him so that I can better analyze him. Your conversation with cheese was easily accesable, and his oppinion might shed some light on his thinking.

ScriptenWhat specifically did you find suspicous about cheese's posts?

Nerjin:Who, in your oppinion, is the most dangerous player of this game, and why?

Not at all. I would probably be doing that in the mafia chat, not here. Instead, I was trying to get info on nerjin. Right now, he has acted a lot like an IC, but not like a player. Granted, he only has one post, but he has only asked one question, which is very general (And I forgot to answer that one...), and I dont think it would provide much.

I do suppose you have a point. I guess the content in a players question is as important as the answer that is provided... I need to look back on people's questions now......

I would say at this point, Zormod seems suspect due to his lack of posts. But that could just be coincidence. Cheese is also suspect, mainly due to scriptons post above, which makes complete sense to me....

Mainly because I dont have enough to make a final decision. I only voted dani to try to pressure him. Unfortunately, I didnt come up with anything substantial.

Nerjin: You have absolutely no opinion on anyone? This seems unlikely. We may be D1, but we do have some info out there already.

This is true, but I still think Zormod is scummy. He posts some, but his posts are not long, nor are they productive. They answer a question simply, with no explanation and no question back. This is, in my opinion, is fairly scummy.

Zormod: Why do you suspect Dani more than anyone else?

Hector: Based on Scripten's conversation with mastah, what is your read on him, and why? What do you think of mastah?

Comrade: The content in your posts seem to be confusing. Would you care to elaborate why you think origami is the towniest?

Well, at this point, I think both Scripten and Mastah have a scum lean.

Scripten has a scum lean mainly because he was focusing on mastah pretty heavily. This, combined with the fact that he attacked mastah right as soon as mastah started questioning me, almost as if he were defending me. I dont like this. I dont think ANY town should defend first day. We dont have enough information to decide without a doubt who is town and who isnt. Maybe second day, but definately not first day.

Mastah has a slight scum lean because of what Scripten was saying. His questions did seem pointed, but I think town should have pointed questions. They bring out lots of info, which is a great thing. But, he does have lots of experiance, and some of his questions seem inexperianced, which is why he has a scum lean for me.


I also want to point out that Nerjin hasnt posted a whole lot. This is odd, mainly because he is an IC, which I would think would be active...

Most Scummy
Zormod has a scum feel. He has posted enough not to be lurking, but his posts have no content whatsoever. He answers questions in one sentence, with no thought to them. He doesnt ask any questions either. This makes me think that he is scum.

origamiscienceguy is a scum lean. He is posting quite a bit, but only to answer questions, and hardly to ask. He isnt making much progress, so I think he's probably trying to make it look like he's active.

Nerjin/Comrade Shamrock are not posting much. Nerjin's postings as a player are pretty lacklustre. He seemed to not have many content-giving questions. For an IC, this seems odd. Comrade Shamrock isnt making much sense right now, plus he isnt posting much. It could just be a beginner mistake, or he may not have much time though.

Scripten has a scum lean mainly because he was focusing on mastah pretty heavily. This, combined with the fact that he attacked mastah right as soon as mastah started questioning me, almost as if he were defending me. I dont like this. I dont think ANY town should defend first day. We dont have enough information to decide without a doubt who is town and who isnt. Maybe second day, but definately not first day. (This is a quote from my post above)
 
Mastahcheese has a slight scum lean because of what Scripten was saying. His questions did seem pointed, but I think town should have pointed questions. They bring out lots of info, which is a great thing. But, he does have lots of experiance, and some of his questions seem inexperianced, which is why he has a scum lean for me. (This is a quote from my post above)

Dani has a very slight scum lean, basically because of his post where he was trying to be humorous. It ended up telling us nothing(even if the question wasnt wouldnt give the most info), and was confusing. But everything after that has been pretty good.

hector hasnt posted much, but he seems to be hunting some. Right now, he's neutral.
Most Town

Ok, so I'm suspicous. I may just be really paranoid, but you know, those Something Else's are out there...

Origami Why arent you scumhunting very much? You are clearly active, but not very usefull right now. Is there a reason?

I dont see how these are contradictions. I was NOT defending origami. I was asked a question about my opinion, so I answered. I didnt say he was town, I said he seemed town. The reason I changed my tone in my post above was because I realised that we didnt really have anything on him, and he wasnt asking any questions worthwhile.

I could go on, but I think this is sufficient to prove that I have posted content.

Unless your saying that because I dont post WoT's, I must be lurking, which doesnt make sense.

Plus, I would think that you would be the one lurking, not me. What content have you posted?