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[pisskop]

1)  on phone 12 inches.  Im not getting into any detail today.
2)  @Flaborts Qs.  Almost laughably silly and tunnely.  'tomorrow'  if i am alive.

Toaster

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=147607.msg5988552#msg5988552
   I asked him who and gave him suggestions because I was trying to make use of the PM.
      letting him use his kill the way he wants is a fair idea.  I suppose I am used to forims where such  a quick/pressured claim is viewed as too inexperienced or scummy to be trusted, and a debate on whether to lynch or chain him always results.  Frankly I think Shaker is a misuse of a vig, but I wasnot willing to ask him why after his clear angst in his final PM.


Deus

I dont remember all you asked, but I believe you mentioned 'ask flabort' and 'why is who is pming with flabirt important.

afa ask flabirt.
  I asked 3 people, only Jim answered thus far.
Im curious if you read most of my 3part post.

afa why do I care.
  I find shaker an odd choice, and I originally asjed becauwe not once dud he say, 'hey,stop pming me!' until he was ready to post it publically.
  Now it matters because Jim's claim of 'upftont public honesty' and Tiruin.
And  if trying to guide tge vig is scummy  than we need to know who.


Flabort

  Unless you too have 3inches of ice under a foot of snow Im asking you again to answer my questions.  This us starting to seem like more than overreactions and tunneling . . .


masta

I wonder...


Im not likely to be on tonight.  I hope to see you all 'tomorrow' and tomorrow.

[flabort]

flabort, I'd like to know why Shakerag being jokey is worth night killing him over, or at least why it's worth giving him that impression.

It's worth it because the information from his flip, ESPECIALLY if he or TDS is scum, is super valuable; The reasons his jokes make it valuable is because he's interacting with these people (Jim valintine), but wasn't contributing anything useful @ the time. So his flip can tell us why he was choosing those people.

Giving him the impression that I want to kill him, which I sort of do more now, is worth it forhis reaction.
ppepisskop could you repost those qu3stions? I can't see them from here.
pfp

[Toaster]

Flabort:

flabort, I'd like to know why Shakerag being jokey is worth night killing him over, or at least why it's worth giving him that impression.

It's worth it because the information from his flip, ESPECIALLY if he or TDS is scum, is super valuable; The reasons his jokes make it valuable is because he's interacting with these people (Jim valintine), but wasn't contributing anything useful @ the time. So his flip can tell us why he was choosing those people.

Giving him the impression that I want to kill him, which I sort of do more now, is worth it forhis reaction.

I'd love to hear how you can deduce his theoretical scumbuddies by whom he jokes around with.

[Scripten]

Tiruin:

I believe you about your technical problems. The issue here is that we are playing a game of mafia. If you are not able to participate, it makes it harder for us to scumhunt. I'm not going to lynch you for being unable to use the site, but that wasn't what I was voting you for. It was mostly due to your reads feeling... off, I suppose.

Now I found it!
...No, that isn't 'more' accurate. Why I added those details that make it long, is to make it more accurate.
The list there? Basic skimming. The note on ToonyMan (which I guess is why you put a !!!?, because it was a curious find, compared to what is given in thread?) is more of my recall of his attitude and how he posts, what he asks and...well, a mixed case less in metaknowledge and more on behavioral tendencies.
Though if you'd work by basic details, then yeah, the 'summarized list' is ok: I put the details because of the fluidity of the situation. It's too early to begin judging people here, and considering that I haven't read fully the last pages until now, its an 'ugh x_x' case for me.

What I meant was, if I made any mistakes in summarizing your reads list, I was hoping you could correct me. While accuracy is good, keeping concise notes makes you accountable for where you lay your chips. That's why I was concerned by you townreading Toonyman at the point in the game in which you were doing so. It was, and is, concerning because there was not nearly enough from him to give him a town read, unless you had extra information.

Toonyman:

Defense of Pisskop and Flabort noted.

Passive-aggressive (fake?)scumhunting noted.

-snip-

Mmmkay.

Gonna take this as you keeping the opinion that Shakerag is scum. Let me know if I'm wrong.

That's not productive. Maybe you have a reason to vote Flabort now.

I thought you thought Shakerag was scum. Your inertia is all over the place here. I was fine with #319, but it doesn't seem like you're even trying to vote scum. You voted Shakerag while treating him like town and trying to push him to vote alongside you. Now you're voting Flabort and, well...

I'm voting Flabort instead of Pisskop, because you know they're going to end up shooting the wrong person even if they were town, and that's no good. Not that I believe they're town.

You're already hedging your bets against Flabort flipping town. Sure, you're convinced Flabort is scum, but by golly, even a town flip would be good because he's going to shoot the wrong person.

Explain to me how it makes sense for you to be scumreading Shakerag and scumreading the guy who has stated intent to shoot Shakerag simulataneously?

I also do not like half of the people on the Pisskop and Tiruin lynchwagons, so there.

With Tiruin's aforementioned townread on you, this concerns me. Neither of you should have enough information about the other to be townreading each other. Not making any associative reads before a flip, but if one of you flips, I'll be looking carefully to see if this is scum-buddying-town or scumbuddies backing each other up.

[Shakerag]

Since it appears to be all the rage among you kids, I'll share a PM I got:

If I advised Flabort on an alternative target, you won't be killed tonight. But right now I haven't got any reason to. Your defeatist attitude in a game where there could be a town medium (enabling town players to contribute after they die) indicates to me that you're scum. Am I wrong?

[Scripten]

Since it appears to be all the rage among you kids, I'll share a PM I got:

If I advised Flabort on an alternative target, you won't be killed tonight. But right now I haven't got any reason to. Your defeatist attitude in a game where there could be a town medium (enabling town players to contribute after they die) indicates to me that you're scum. Am I wrong?

You are the Shakerage. Been waiting to use that.

As for the PM... well, is he wrong? Because, to be honest, I was thinking the exact same thing. The major thing that has been giving me pause is Toonyman going after you.

[mastahcheese]

@Jim Bison: Thanks for snipping the entirity of my reason for voting so that you can whine about it.
Also thanks for not giving a fuck when the person who posts immediately after you votes the same person.
Your utter lack of even acknoledging it is noted.

More recently: Pisskop: I can't read your mind. If you have something to say, say it.

*Having to wait to answer everything in between because he's busy*

[Toaster]

Thanks to the Lurker Tracker, I tallied up all the votes and put them in order, in order to look for bandwagony behavior.  I haven't done this before, so I'm not sure how useful this will be.  In any case, first the raw data:

Spoiler: Raw Data (click to show/hide)

I shortened the names a bit so it looks nice with the tabs.  Do note that it scrolls.  Remember, this list is ordered by time.

Code: [Select]

Voter Target

Flabort Pisskop
Cheeet Pisskop
Toony Mastahcheese
Persus Flabort
Toaster Flabort
Deus Flabort
Cheeet Flabort
TDS Flabort
Script TDS
Shake Pisskop
Pisskop UXLZ
Deaths Pisskop
Script Unvote
Pisskop Unvote
Shake Unvote
Flabort Pisskop
NQT Toony
Script Toony
Pisskop Deaths
Toony Shake
Persus Pisskop
Shake UXLZ
NQT Tiruin
Jim G TDS
UXLZ Deaths
Deus Unvote
Script Deaths
Flabort Deaths
Mastah Script
Deaths unvote
Script Tiruin
Flabort TDS
Cheeet Pisskop
Flabort Pisskop
Flabort TDS
Mastah TDS
Deus TDS
UXLZ TDS
Persus Unvote
Pisskop TDS
Jim G Pisskop
Pisskop Tiruin
Mastah Pisskop
Flabort Pisskop



Now, what conclusions can we draw from this?  A quick look shows some obvious wagons forming:  Flabort, Deathsword, TDS, and Pisskop.  One quick aside here:


TDS:

Everyone: What do you think of the wagons on me, Scripten, and 4maskkop? Who do you see as scummy for being on them?

The Scripten wagon doesn't exist.


Anyway, who is bandwagoning here?  Let's go over some candidates:

Deus:  A bit bandwagony.  For TDS he cites inactivity and focusing on Flabort.  For Flabort he attacks Flabort's position on 4mask.  Not the strongest cases, so possibly someone to watch.
Flabort:  He's moving his vote around enough that it's not really following the wagon.  He may be trying to pass off responsibility with his vote (as I noted earlier) he's not flagrantly bandwagoning.
Mastahcheese:  Also a bit bandwagony.  He backs off his Scripten vote to vote TDS, saying he'd rather vote to consensus rather than who he suspects.  His Pisskop vote is stronger, however.
UXLZ:  This vote on TDS is awfully low-effort.


Can we call any of them scum from this?  I didn't like MC's move for consensus, but at least he was honest about it.  Deus could put some more original thought into his vote; he might be the one to watch out of that list.  I'm still content with my Flabort vote but Deus is now a close second.

[Shakerag]

As for the PM... well, is he wrong? Because, to be honest, I was thinking the exact same thing. The major thing that has been giving me pause is Toonyman going after you.

My reply:

You are, but not that my saying that means/proves anything.

Here, Toaster, I'll help you toward realizing your dreams:  flabort

Vote to lynch is now tied, fencesitters.

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
pisskop: Cheeetar, Jim Groovester, flabort, mastahcheese
TheDarkStar: Deus Asmoth, UXLZ
Tiruin: pisskop, Scripten, notquitethere
flabort: Shakerag, TheDarkStar, Toaster, ToonyMan


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Today (About 6 hours)

Normally I'd cap extensions at this point, but if zombie urist requests one I'll extend the day one final time.

[notquitethere]

Everyone voting Pisskop - He's erratic, but he's also provided us with the most content of the day AND has a claim that we can prove/disprove tonight. Killing him now reduces our information. It's idiotic.

Everyone voting Flabort - A Vigilante that no one trusts is a daunting proposition, but in him we have a player that we know isn't performing the scumkill tonight. Killing him now reduces the information we have. It guarantees not to kill a player who could be performing tonight's scumkill. Also, he's likely to kill Shakerag tonight, which given the defeatist stance Shakerag has shown (in a game where town players can contribute through a medium) is probably a pro-game move.

Who should you be voting instead? Tiruin has contributed nothing today. That might not be wholly her fault (internet issues etc.) but even when she was posting regularly, she formed no cases and had no scum reads. Without contributing, she gives us little content to look over in future days: she's an ideal D1 lynch candidate.


UXLZ

NQT: Are you accounting for the possibility that pisskopp is being bussed?

UXLZ just brought in the idea of bussing, so that complicates things (But he could very well be right, so we should take that into account)

I'm convinced that Flabort and Pisskop aren't on the same team. Their PM-chain-of-misunderstanding is obviously not fabricated. If either one were scum, scum would be voting for the other and we wouldn't have a tie here. I'm pretty sure neither are dopps. Also, Wolf knew there were four dopp players because of the intro description:

Four.  There were four pods.

Would a dopp player correct a townie who believed there were one fewer scum players? Maybe, but it seems unlikely. Pisskop might be an alien, I wouldn't rule that out, but I don't think he's part of the scum team.

Shakerag

Since it appears to be all the rage among you kids, I'll share a PM I got:

If I advised Flabort on an alternative target, you won't be killed tonight. But right now I haven't got any reason to. Your defeatist attitude in a game where there could be a town medium (enabling town players to contribute after they die) indicates to me that you're scum. Am I wrong?

I can confirm I sent that PM. I'll say that you're remarkably consistent in your suicidal unhelpfulness.

[Deus Asmoth]

Well, this is a mess. flabort.

Reasoning: of the two players currently tied for the vote, I consider pisskop's play to be the more pro-town of the two, even if he was a bit over invested in PMing people rather than doing it in the open. His claimed role is less destructive in scum hands, and we'll know if he was telling the truth tomorrow in any case. While that's also true of flabort, his demeanour today and the shaky reasons behind his intended kill of Shakerag make me think that this is not someone we want to have a night kill.

Shakerag What was the point in intentionally tying the lynch vote with six hours left in the day, when there's a reasonable chance that some players won't be able to see or react to it? And what was the point in revealing the PM from NQT? If you wanted to stay in the game you could have tried to convince him that you're an asset to the town.

NQT, if your reasoning for wanting Tiruin lynched is not contributing, why is she a better choice than Tooney, TDS or Persus?

flabort, how would Shakerag's flip tell us anything useful with regard to the people he was joking with? If he's scum joking with scum, they have their own personal chat to do it in.

[Shakerag]

Shakerag What was the point in intentionally tying the lynch vote with six hours left in the day, when there's a reasonable chance that some players won't be able to see or react to it? And what was the point in revealing the PM from NQT? If you wanted to stay in the game you could have tried to convince him that you're an asset to the town.

I wouldn't have let the day end in a tie by my fault.  My reasoning was to draw out the fencesitters.  Perhaps NQT can draw some conclusions from the voting patterns. 

I revealed the PM because I felt like it.  And that it seems like a number of players in this game seem to think they have pull with flabort as to which targets he chooses. 

[zombie urist]

First, welcom ZU, have you been reading the thread? Are you caught up, and can you answer the questions to you?

No, yes, no cause I'm lazy.

Why are people voting for Tiruin? Is it basically because she's not posting much because of bad internet? Because I'm going to take that as they don't want to make a decision on the Flabort/pisskop thing.

I suppose that NQT is pretty towny right now, but I really disagree with a Tiruin lynch. Even though both pisskop/flabort are strong power roles, even if they are town there's a lot of people on the wagons it'll be useful to see who voted for whom and for what reasons. Expect me to completely reverse my opinion of NQT sometime this game. But he's right that its unlikely that both are scum.

I'm going to vote for Scripten for voting lurkers the entire day, despite posting quite a lot with regards to other players.

Of Flabort and Pisskop, I think that 4mask/pisskop is more likely to be town of some sort. I think Flabort panicked and seeing no other way out chose to reveal the gambit to everyone. I'll switch my vote to Flabort if there's a tie at day end.

[UXLZ]

UXLZ:  This vote on TDS is awfully low-effort.

Obviously you missed the reasoning I posted further down, or (I believe) PMed to you.