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[Tack]

So happy we got Toady watching over us.

you are way too obsessed with realism

This. A thousand times this.

I think he was just pointing out an 'Interesting note'.
Seeing as a bunch of different mediums (incl. comics) have sprung from one misconception, I personally find it pretty cool.

[i2amroy]

It is one of only three games I know of where playing a male or female actually has a noticeable effect on your playthrough.

Care to list the other ones? I can think of one more (Sword of Mana) but I can't recall any others off the top of my head.

[Sheo]

Removed the latest transgender discussion and warned somebody.  I'm sorry I had to remove the whole thing, but it started from a bad place.

Thanks Toads, removal of off-topic is appreciated.

Back on games - I recently had a fun conversation about a theoretical concept for a game with realistic medieval combat.

Basically, the game would properly track weight, momentum, bodytype and other features. The idea stemmed from a conversation about dual-wielding swords, and from there went from a game concept realistic enough to show how ludicrous the idea is, and then to a topic that might concern this thread.

Biologically, females have considerably less strength potential than males, hence why thorough history female warriors have been less common than male ones, cultural reasons aside.

The idea was that we could realistically reflect this by giving female characters these modifications:

-STR
-AGI
+DEX
+CHR

Less strength and agility because in our world men have less limitations in both those areas, but more dexterity because of women's finer motor controls, proved through various studies. Charisma in this sense means one's disposition to agree with the character - and studies have also shown both male and female humans are more agreeable to a female than to a male.

What I propose is a discussion of said system, opinions on the suggested implementation or defense or attack of the conclusions I have shown.

A post from my discussion, because it's interesting info:

"Also worth pointing out real female warriors were oftentimes aware of their limitations, and adapted to overcome them.

Onna-bugeisha were basically female samurai of sorts in japanese history, and they mostly fought with the naginata (a spear-like weapon) and the bow, since both these weapons helped them overocme their lower upper body strength.

I'm thinking of starting work in a game that'll allow women characters but will add the proper realistic limitations, i.e. they'll be weaker and thus forced to use said weapons in their advantage.

Honestly I think that's an interesting factoid, and to balance in a RPG they could maybe have a bonus to accuracy, dex or charisma."

To add: I don't think every game needs to realistically depict the biological differences between men and women, just that a fully realistic (or close to, anyhow) simulator of medieval combat would be interesting. Less humongous swords and cheesy dialogue and more trying to find nooks and crannies within armor and two-strike duels.

Also, the game is theoretical - so we haven't reached a level of discussing how to program said functions per say, but discussion on that is cool, too, even if I think it'd stray from topic.

[Tack]

Mount and Blade you can play as a woman.

But you are pretty heavily discriminated against; as it's a medieval simulator and people are like 'Wot, a woman on a horse? How droll'.

[Neonivek]

It is one of only three games I know of where playing a male or female actually has a noticeable effect on your playthrough.

Care to list the other ones? I can think of one more (Sword of Mana) but I can't recall any others off the top of my head.

Fallout(1), Fallout 2, and Mount and Blade

Those were the only games I can think of where being another gender actually has an appreciable effect.

Sure some games make gender choices limit your romantic options... but that is minor.

[Tack]

You also have the opportunity to assassinate a misogynistic warlord (and, at your discretion, also mutilate his corpse)

Good ol' cook cook.
Never did find out if you can choose to have a shallow and unhealthy lesbian relationship with one of his victims.

Gosh games are just so detailed now.

[Bohandas]

You also have the opportunity to assassinate a misogynistic warlord (and, at your discretion, also mutilate his corpse)

Good ol' cook cook.
Never did find out if you can choose to have a shallow and unhealthy lesbian relationship with one of his victims.

Gosh games are just so detailed now.

Actually I was talking about Caesar.

[Tack]

Ah. I have played through many times, and never actually had more than one conversation with him.

Which usually ended with the 'terrifying presence' speech, and slaughtering his camp.

[Bohandas]

Ah. I have played through many times, and never actually had more than one conversation with him.

Which usually ended with the 'terrifying presence' speech, and slaughtering his camp.

I've never had any. I always fight my way to him.

[Sheo]

No replies to the subject I suggested? Darn.

Sandman isn't an adaptation, it is an independent story.

To be more precise, Sandman came from the writer's failed attempt to try to get into the Wild Cards series - he was denied a chapter by George R.R. Martin for his lack of experience, and thus he went with his script for a dream-living being to another set of green fields.

And he hit jackpot.

[Frumple]

It is one of only three games I know of where playing a male or female actually has a noticeable effect on your playthrough.

Care to list the other ones? I can think of one more (Sword of Mana) but I can't recall any others off the top of my head.

Most of the Seiken Densetsu stuff actually has fairly meaningful differences between the male and female options, barring the first couple (and later ones based off them), iirc. SD3 definitely does (entire chunks of the story gets adjusted based on which characters you choose for your party, and the choices are split even across gender lines), I think legend does to a lesser degree, probably others.

Some I've played relatively recently include Valdis Story (PC) which, beyond being pretty great, shifts exploration order, moveset, and other stuff, a bit based on which character (of which there is one male and one female, so far) you play as. Hexyz Force (PSP) has entirely different storylines based on which gender you choose for your main character, due to each one being an entirely different person. The Summon Night (GBA) games are pretty darn good about shifting up character interaction and whatnot based on gender choice, though it doesn't impact overall plot or gameplay too terribly much.

There's a fair amount more I'm forgetting, as well. Is a good handful of other stuff like that out there, some of it pretty old. Definitely less represented than cookie-cutter stuff, but there's close to always been a few designers producing stuff that tinkers with gender making varying degrees of a substantial difference in game.

[UXLZ]

but discussion on that is cool, too, even if I think it'd stray from topic.

Thanks Toads, removal of off-topic is appreciated.

>_>
<_<
Hypocrite. >_>

Anyway, more seriously, it sounds like somewhat of an interesting concept. The biggest issue I can see with it is sheer time constraints on actually making the game. That, or monetary ones. The issue is: How would you present all of this control in a usable format?
Would the game be real-time?
Kind of a turn-based plan-and-see?
DF-like, except even more in-depth? (Combat system. Hopefully with a good UI. xD)

Possibly instead of making women inherently less agile, give them a larger penalty for using heavy equipment?

o replies to the subject I suggested? Darn.

I replied. I just had 7 ninjas. xD

[Baffler]

Mount and Blade you can play as a woman.

But you are pretty heavily discriminated against; as it's a medieval simulator and people are like 'Wot, a woman on a horse? How droll'.

Yeah, lords will sometimes make snide remarks or tell you that adventuring is too dangerous for a woman such as you. You can reply with equally quaint retorts and even have a duel (though sometimes they'll back down.) It's also slightly harder to recruit new people, but that's really it. The offender and their friends will not be pleased with you whether they win or lose, but it does endear you slightly to that person's enemies. The mechanics of it work out so that often best to let it slide coming from powerful lords you don't want to annoy, but it can also catapult you to a fairly prominent position if you can prove them wrong. Enough that smacking down unimportant or unpopular lords is a worthwhile enough endeavor to make it worth looking for them. They did have at least some degree of mercy on you though, kings will never challenge you in such a way unless you use mods to make them.

Ah. I have played through many times, and never actually had more than one conversation with him.

Which usually ended with the 'terrifying presence' speech, and slaughtering his camp.

I've never had any. I always fight my way to him.

I did kill him once, but the effect it had outside of fortification hill was disappointingly small enough that I never did it again. You'd think killing the sole driving force behind the legion would put them into a big more disarray.

[Neonivek]

Yeah it really doesn't count if the male and female character choice are two different characters.

[i2amroy]

I guess it depends on what and how you are "counting" it as. A game with two separate character story lines, for example, can still totally have some mechanical differences in the play styles (for example the Sword of Mana example changed up what weapons you got in what order, some of the mana abilities you had, and so on) despite the fact that it's two different characters.