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[Radio Controlled]

I thought council's job was to see if tinkered design can even work in first place? Did their job description change at some point?

Our job was to help pw with balancing, keep an eye out for exploits, check if tinker stuff works out, stuff like that. Was never fully detailed, because we have no real power anyways.

[Devastator]

I was going to go to some pretty solid lengths backing up my justification for a slightly increased cost, but it seems the actual reason for getting expensive weapons for nothing is because the token system is supposed to be completely arbritrary and unjustifiable.

I mean, really?  You get to make up whatever token price you like, except mine is completely unacceptable because.. it is actually a reasonable and defenceable price for what you are getting?

[Parisbre56]

Or, maybe, try to balance things as best as we can, and let pw break his own game when he feels like it.

But balance in relation to what? Your own beliefs on what balance is supposed to be? Not the already established balance of the game?

Not even that. The council has no power! We just advise pw, and if he agrees, report our findings. PW can easily veto the veto, but chose not to.

To give an extreme example, that's like saying "We have no power! We may have given that man the death sentence if he does not choose to repent, but the governor did not phone to give him a pardon! If he wanted, he could had given him a pardon, but he didn't! Therefore, we are not responsible for his death. The only one we can blame is him for not repenting and the governor for not calling us! Nobody but us!"

What I'm saying is, you do have power. Piecwise had agreed on one thing, then you disagreed with that and piecewise decided not to disagree with you. You can't avoid the responsibility that power gives you by pretending you have no power.

I was going to go to some pretty solid lengths backing up my justification for a slightly increased cost, but it seems the actual reason for not getting expensive weapons for nothing is because the token system is supposed to be completely arbritrary and unjustifiable.

I mean, really?  You get to make up whatever token price you like, except mine is completely unacceptable because.. it is actually a reasonable and defenceable price for what you are getting?

I thought the conclusion of his post was that your price was unreasonable. He even had math and tilde symbols and everything plus comparisons to the existing token system, showing how that item fit in there. All you have is your own belief on how things should be balanced and what should be reasonable.

EDIT: I'm not judging anyone. I'm just saying how things are. Piecewise must trust your opinion better if he has you making decisions based on that alone, but it's just that, an opinion.

[Devastator]

I thought the conclusion of his post was that your price was unreasonable. He even had math and tilde symbols and everything plus comparisons to the existing token system, showing how that item fit in there. All you have is your own belief on how things should be balanced and what should be reasonable.

Well, the math is silly.  I'm assuming you're taking it from this post in particular?

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145831.msg6313769#msg6313769

Nikitan made that data up on the spot, entirely out of his own beliefs, to support his decision on the price.  Even so, using his assumptions, all those parts that he's ignoring are still required to create the PEW!  You still need the cooling, the generator, the focusing, and the two black boxes.

In the end, asking for whatever the #### you want to be free is totally acceptable, but asking for four goddamn tokens more is completely out of line?

[Devastator]

I also don't want it because I think it would be a very bad thing for the armoury to descend into "Whatever package deals the Hep guys decide to offer."  It means you don't get to pick what you want, unless you go sweet-talk the hep guys into making whatever you want for whatever price you think it should be, which is, in all honestly, a completely raw deal for anyone who doesn't want to play endless political games all the time.

I mean, really, why not just discount everything in the armoury 80% or so, to represent what you get for talking someone on Hep into duct-taping it to an assaultsuit, which is what mechanically these creations are.

I suppose that's only harsh if you don't have the fifteen tokens to buy yourself into the old-boys club, you peasant, you, or if you can't get one out of the free prototype loaner plan, which since everyone would want to use a personalized assaultsuit, everyone is eligable for, because each one is a 'unique product', and thus qualifies for prototyping.

[Devastator]

Seriously, though, I would like to hear a straight answer as to why giving two newbies PEWs would cost 24 tokens, but why firing two PEWs yourself should cost 5.

[Nikitian]

I was going to go to some pretty solid lengths backing up my justification for a slightly increased cost, but it seems the actual reason for not getting expensive weapons for nothing is because the token system is supposed to be completely arbritrary and unjustifiable.

I mean, really?  You get to make up whatever token price you like, except mine is completely unacceptable because.. it is actually a reasonable and defenceable price for what you are getting?

You know what is the funniest thing about all this? We both want 'fair' price, that is not defined arbitrarily. Hell, I'll go out on a leg and say we both would have probably accepted this price whether it was too high or too low, if only it was directly explained by resources spent. But for some reason (*wink*wink* We're here, [you know who]! ) a new concept has entered this game in the last few years, and that word is "balance" - and it made the "realistic prices" make room and coexist with it.

Now, I am not saying that 'balance' is a bad thing. It's a compromise, and a good one at that - and, as usual, the telling mark of a good compromise is that no party is satisfied with the result. So here we are, both unhappy with the result, but maybe or maybe not it's for the good of us all, even if we cannot exactly see it.

Our job was to help pw with balancing, keep an eye out for exploits, check if tinker stuff works out, stuff like that. Was never fully detailed, because we have no real power anyways.

"The king holds the absolute power! We are merely his royal advisors, we have no real power anyways!"
Or, to quote ancients "My son rules all Greece" of Themistocles.

I thought the conclusion of his post was that your price was unreasonable. He even had math and tilde symbols and everything plus comparisons to the existing token system, showing how that item fit in there. All you have is your own belief on how things should be balanced and what should be reasonable.

Well, the math is silly.  I'm assuming you're taking it from this post in particular?

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145831.msg6313769#msg6313769

Nikitan made that data up on the spot, entirely out of his own beliefs, to support his decision on the price.  Even so, using his assumptions, all those parts that he's ignoring are still required to create the PEW!  You still need the cooling, the generator, the focusing, and the two black boxes.

To be entirely honest, I indeed did the calculations on the spot, but they were as neutral as possible; I really wanted to find out the result, and it came a bit surprising even to me. The calculations are, in fact, based on my own extensive memories and experience of Tinkering and can be considered subjective in that - but so far that has been considered a more or less reliable source, and, of course, it is easily provable: ask Piecewise on those same prices I guesstimated.
Yes, it can be reasoned that there might be an extra one or two tokens in there for all the efficient energy transitions and wiring etc., but as I explained then - the cooling and the generator are already included in the very suit. That's the reason integrating the weapon offers such a nice synergy, after all.
And finally, once again, I am of the "Old-school" Tinker; I am less used and fine with arbitrarily making things up than figuring out the cost and how it should transition into tokens. That is why I assert my statement that those calculations were made in good faith; had they shown a very different result, I would not have denied them. I was being scientifically objective as much as it is possible within this game.

[Parisbre56]

Even so, using his assumptions, all those parts that he's ignoring are still required to create the PEW!  You still need the cooling, the generator, the focusing, and the two black boxes.

No, the point of his post is that they are not needed. Because they are already being provided by the assaultsuit/battlesuit. Therefore, all you're paying for is the 2 black boxes. Therefore, if we had linear prices, then the price of the suit would be dependent on the price of those two black boxes only, minus all the other equipment needed to operate them.

In the end, asking for whatever the #### you want to be free is totally acceptable, but asking for four goddamn tokens more is completely out of line?

I'm not saying it's out of line. We're not judging anyone or saying you're an idiot or anything like that. All I'm saying is that I'm not asking for things to be given for free, I simply have a different opinion on the matter than the council and am trying to convince it of that because its opinion matters more merely because of its position of power. It's simple politics, negotiation.

I also don't want it because I think it would be a very bad thing for the armoury to descend into "Whatever package deals the Hep guys decide to offer."  It means you don't get to pick what you want, unless you go sweet-talk the hep guys into making whatever you want for whatever price you think it should be, which is, in all honestly, a completely raw deal for anyone who doesn't want to play endless political games all the time.

I mean, really, why not just discount everything in the armoury 80% or so, to represent what you get for talking someone on Hep into duct-taping it to an assaultsuit, which is what mechanically these creations are.

I suppose that's only harsh if you don't have the fifteen tokens to buy yourself into the old-boys club, you peasant, you, or if you can't get one out of the free prototype loaner plan, which since everyone would want to use a personalized assaultsuit, everyone is eligable for, because each one is a 'unique product', and thus qualifies for prototyping.

It's not "Whatever package deal Heph wants to offer". As the post you linked shows, this is an idea that makes in-game sense to be a weapon package. The only thing in the game that currently gives such freedom is the Avatar of War.

This isn't a slippery slope. I have a hard time imagining the armoury suddenly flooding with unnecessary battlesuit variants, because such variants would offer nothing and make little sense. This is a variant that makes sense, even more so than existing variants.

[Devastator]

I may very well have accepted some of those synergy arguments from Sean, if he didn't go to such lengths to describe how much he worked on creating new improvements to them, instead of how these changes can allow for a cheaper PEW.  Also, there still are issues, because you'd still need the two barrels, at the very least.  You can then make another argument that building these things internally and then surrounding them with the dozens of layers of advanced armor that goes into the assaultsuit would result in an increase of price, as strapping two big guns to the shoulders means you need to add more armor, power assistance, etcetera.

Plus, well, in my opinion, I'd like it to not matter if you are rolling the feature into the suit, (the advanced generator, for instance), that it no longer costs money.  If the assaultsuit has absolutely everything, paramount defensive capabilities, rocket jets, advanced integrated generators..  why is it so cheap?

Lastly, I'm the only one unhappy with the result.  The tinker guys get what they want.  Cheap prices, permanent discounts to anything strapped to combat suits, prototyping capabilities that lets Hep hand out whatever they want to whoever they want for free..  The only compromise I get is that a few meaningless systems are thrown out on the design.  The only one that actually matters was the adjustment that the weapons would be built into the arms, meaning the loss of a usable arm for each PEW.

Except, of course, that wouldn't actually be part of the design once it's accepted and written into canon on the wiki, right?  It would be 'built into the arms', and the arms would still be usable..  To be honest, removing a useable arm would make it easier and cheaper to create, so I'd probably be okay with one less token cost per arm given up, with 23 for a single and 28 for a double.

[Parisbre56]

Also, there still are issues, because you'd still need the two barrels, at the very least.

Nope, just need to switch out a layer of hexsand inside the gun with a layer of hexplate, which should actually be cheaper. Only problem is that you'd have to remove the motors/electronics/various equipment in there to make room for the barrel, so the hand/arm itself would have less functionality.

You can then make another argument that building these things internally and then surrounding them with the dozens of layers of advanced armor that goes into the assaultsuit would result in an increase of price, as strapping two big guns to the shoulders means you need to add more armor, power assistance, etcetera.

Not really. The HEPs themselves are tiny, a mere unpainted metal cylinder on a pistol handle. And part of that is the generator. So all you need is power lines and perhaps a few lines of coolant running between the plates to help spread the heat around the suit or prevent the pilot from getting fried.

Plus, well, in my opinion, I'd like it to not matter if you are rolling the feature into the suit, (the advanced generator, for instance), that it no longer costs money.  If the assaultsuit has absolutely everything, paramount defensive capabilities, rocket jets, advanced integrated generators..  why is it so cheap?

Why is any equipment in the armoury the price it is? Why is the Gauss Cannon so expensive? Why is the Hand Cannon and Brisant so cheap?
The battlesuit is cheap because piecewise wants it to be cheap, because armoury sales are not done for profit.

Lastly, I'm the only one unhappy with the result.  The tinker guys get what they want.  Cheap prices, permanent discounts to anything strapped to combat suits, prototyping capabilities that lets Hep hand out whatever they want to whoever they want for free..  The only compromise I get is that a few meaningless systems are thrown out on the design.  The only one that actually matters was the adjustment that the weapons would be built into the arms, meaning the loss of a usable arm for each PEW.

Except, of course, that wouldn't actually be part of the design once it's accepted and written into canon on the wiki, right?  It would be 'built into the arms', and the arms would still be usable..  To be honest, removing a useable arm would make it easier and cheaper to create, so I'd probably be okay with one less token cost per arm given up, with 23 for a single and 28 for a double.

But think about it in terms of gameplay. If people on Hephaestus can't create at least equal equipment to the ones already existing in the armoury for the same price, then what is the point of them trying to design things?

Shouldn't the basis of this argument be trying to limit the PEWPEW so that it has more or less the same capabilities and price as other variants (EDIT: or be more expensive if it must have more functionality, although I dislike that due to personal preference, I'd prefer it if all variants are the same price), rather than trying to come up with arbitary arguments about what its price should be based on anyone's beliefs on what is and is not balanced? To work with the designer to reach a compromise with that as a goal? I think it would be a more objective and useful way of going about balancing this.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Solution: Make the Avatar of War cost 50 token, make all BS and AS variants cost appropriately to their gear. Then the 2PEW AS can cost 28 token easy.

Do you grasp, at least, the concept of the cost curve? It's a vital part of tailor-balancing. Given item A, that has a general "Usefulness" of X and a cost of Y, and item B, that has a usefulness of W and cost of V, a theoretical item C, that has a usefulness of M, where X<M<W, must therefore cost N, where Y<N<V, and most importantly, the relative values of Y, N, and V must be proportional in their difference to their corresponding values X, M, and W. It gets a little more confusing with more items in the set, but this is a simple case.

Put into numbers, if you evaluate item B as ten times as useful as item A, but A costs 15 and B costs 30, an item C that is about thrice as useful as A, but still vastly inferior to B, should cost about 20 - this is me fudging the hell out of some virtual math, but I hope I am communicating my point well enough by now.

Just making the Avatar more expensive isn't going to fix all of the cost curve, but it's going to make this particular situation more viable.

[syvarris]

Spoiler: With apologies to Devastator (click to show/hide)

Also, Syv, I do like your reasoning as to why you'd be a god at computers simply because you've been using one for a year.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

"God at computers"?  That term doesn't even make sense.  Also, Saint's been on Heph for several years.  Possibly a decade, at this point.

I suppose everyone must be a god of doctoring just because of living inside a live body for years?

No, but I'd expect them to be fairly good at walking, moving, generally using their muscles...  When you essentially live inside a computer system, your 'movement' and 'muscles' and whatnot would be different computer commands.

Plus I don't think you've spent that one year building an entirely new operating environment for the millions of nodes in the Hep intranet.  Not to mention the code for those thousands of different kinds of internal actors.

Eh, fair point.  I didn't intend to say that Saint had been messing with the Heph OS, but looking back, that's a valid interpretation.  My only defense is that I was tired, and bad at speech.

My intended point is that Saint would be very experienced with the system, and would have been searching for exploits, flaws, and such things--primarily for fun.  He would have patched some of these holes, but a good number would probably be left so that he could use them.

Not to mention ARESSTEVE, which is the reason why nobody actually has to do that.

Do you think ARESTEVE (Note the single S) actually does anything useful?  He probably runs a lot of the automatated stuff, but actual creativity-requiring things?  He seems more like a science team that we ignore, and when he gets bored sometimes he'll churn out questionably useful artifacts.

In fact, the only notable thing about said artifacts is that they are *very particular* arrangements of matter, which just so happen to have magic effects.  So when he's bored, he's probably just bending metal bars in new and provably unique fashions.  AIs have weird ways to entertain themselves...

Coulda just been a year of cat videos, for all that hep needed upkeep.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem (<- Not sure.  It feels like an insult "Bah, Saint probably spent all that time watching cat videos", but it's hard to tell with you.)

Except that I say it wasn't.  Since I'm the player of Saint, I determine what he does.

Besides, he'd do drugs rather than watch cat videos.  The former is far more efficient.

I really don't see why things strapped to suits should be massively discounted, just because suits are, or why taking approved features off suits should be given full token credit.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/personal-incredulity

Basically, think of it like this: tokens are worth N².  If you have one token, it's worth 1.  If you have two tokens, they're worth 4.  15?  225.  It's not a perfect system, and ours has a straighter curve, but it'll help you understand the concept.

And besides, you don't need to understand it in this case.  That's just how it works.  The battlesuit has variants that do the exact same thing, arguably at a higher token efficiency.

because by that logic, a no-PEW variant of the PEW assault suit would be all of one token.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

By our logic, a 0PEW assaultsuit without the various systems that a 2PEW assaultsuit sacrifices would be... oh, eleven or twelve-ish tokens?  Maybe thirteen?

If you want me to support cheap, come up with design improvements based around cheapening something rather than making it work better.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ ...just being ignorant?  It's already been shown how, exactly, this would make the 2PEWs far cheaper.  Certainly far cheaper than the 'bigger than LESHO' cannon that's included in the long-range variant.

Maybe this is a new form of fallacy?  The "You're invisible; Prove me wrong!" fallacy?

how about instead of sean giving you reasons why it should be cheaper to combine technologies instead of buying them seperately and retrofitting them... you start giving reasons as to why it shouldnt?

This is how a rational argument proceeds, yes.  We left that territory long ago, though.

I was going to go to some pretty solid lengths backing up my justification for a slightly increased cost, but it seems the actual reason for getting expensive weapons for nothing is because the token system is supposed to be completely arbritrary and unjustifiable.

I mean, really?  You get to make up whatever token price you like, except mine is completely unacceptable because.. it is actually a reasonable and defenceable price for what you are getting?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman (X2 Combo!)

Well, the math is silly.  I'm assuming you're taking it from this post in particular?

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=145831.msg6313769#msg6313769

Nikitan made that data up on the spot, entirely out of his own beliefs, to support his decision on the price.  Even so, using his assumptions, all those parts that he's ignoring are still required to create the PEW!  You still need the cooling, the generator, the focusing, and the two black boxes.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem (You called it silly, which is derogatory in this context.  Also, you made a bunch of statements saying that he isn't credible, without offering any evidence or counterarguments.  Basically, you're saying "You're wrong" and throwing in some insults to make it impactful)

In the end, asking for whatever the #### you want to be free is totally acceptable, but asking for four goddamn tokens more is completely out of line?

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman (I'm not even sure if this can be counted as misrepresentation.  It's ludicrous exaggeration, to the point that I doubt you literally agree with it yourself.  Would ad-hominem be better?)

I also don't want it because I think it would be a very bad thing for the armoury to descend into "Whatever package deals the Hep guys decide to offer."  It means you don't get to pick what you want, unless you go sweet-talk the hep guys into making whatever you want for whatever price you think it should be, which is, in all honestly, a completely raw deal for anyone who doesn't want to play endless political games all the time.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope (I was wondering when you'd get around to this one!)

Seriously, though, I would like to hear a straight answer as to why giving two newbies PEWs would cost 24 tokens, but why firing two PEWs yourself should cost 5.

"I'm not invisible, man.  Look at this picture I took of myself, I'm righ-" "NO I CAN'T SEE YOU YOU'RE NOT IN THE PICTURE!"

I may very well have accepted some of those synergy arguments from Sean, if he didn't go to such lengths to describe how much he worked on creating new improvements to them, instead of how these changes can allow for a cheaper PEW.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/genetic (I'm not sure?  Misrepresentation might be a better description, since he has described why it's cheaper, but I'm not sure if you've represented anything fairly yet.)

If the assaultsuit has absolutely everything, paramount defensive capabilities, rocket jets, advanced integrated generators..  why is it so cheap?

Good question!

Because unlike Radio, PW actually is fine with better technology making superior items, so hexbug and hexsand are more effective armor by price.

...Also, only the mobility variant has rockets.  I'm not sure why you'd th- oh, wait, yes I am.  It's you.

The tinker guys get what they want.

Since when?  Ever since the council, getting nice things has been an uphill battle, and even before that, half our nice ideas were shot down by PW for no apparent reason. 

Spoiler: @Radio, Same arguments that have been happening since the beginning. (click to show/hide)

Ack! Syv, you wound me! But seriously, one might not agree with the decision, but that doesn't mean it was 'poorly thought out', you can be certain the matter was discussed with all the attention it deserves.

A lot of poor thought does not make a little bit of good thought; It just makes a lot of poor thought.  Even if you somehow arrived at the correct answer, if you used a poor methodology it's still a poorly thought out answer.

Not that you're correct, mind.

Finally, I wonder if it should be allowed for Hep people to trade with things they didn't buy with personal tokens. What's stopping one from trading a dozen battlesuits for the next interesting nyartifact?

Wait, what?  It isn't already outright stated that we CANNOT do that?  Why was I plotting about loans, and not just smuggling valuables off-planet?

As for why it shouldn't get a prototype: what is to stop one, if this gets through, from building a variant with ten gauss cannons and (after rightfully being told it's too expensive) just handing it out as a prototype for a mission? And after that, why, I can give one with a couple plasma launchers, why not! And then one with some of both! Free suits for all!

This has no bearing on the current discussion, but didn't I use this exact argument against you, before?  It was guns rather than suits, but still.

Assuming we say all of that is true, we still come to the problem this idea wanted too much power for too little cost.

There exists a 'long-range' variant for battlesuits.  It is capable of one-shotting battlesuits, at long range, with pin-point accuracy.  It can also use various types of special ammo.  And has a firerate far higher than the PEW.  The only disadvantages are limited ammo, and the fact that you need to dig in before firing.  I think you can even use standard weapons while firing it, too?

There's also a heavy-laser variant.  It isn't capable of easily killing a BS, but it's easily capable of laying waste to infantry, light vehicles, and most structures, continually.  It has massive potential for area destruction and suppression--far more than the 2PEW AS.  It also doesn't have a downtime.  The only real disadvantage is that you can't one-shot heavy armor with it.

To my knowledge, neither of these variants sacrifice as much as the 2PEW does.  So, this leads to a question: why do you think the 2PEW is so much more powerful than either of those?  Because it can occupy both roles, despite being less effective at either?

Next to that, if tokens didn't represent resources a little, then why are harmless items not free (medkits, scout eyes, etc)? Hell, why is scrap metal, beyond the first few pounds, not free?

I was under the impression that something was priced based on cost first, and then might have the council raise the price for balance (as has been done here).

Nik has already done an excellent job at showing why the 2PEW is so cheap.  Even if you take his estimate as a severe lower bound, and put the price closer to 12 tokens or something, it's still far cheaper than the integrated weapons on either of the other IW variants.

And as I said before, do you really want to bother pw with retro-active balancing everything? I'd love to, but I'm pretty sure that would lead to a series of computer banks overloading and exploding somewhere in Alaska.

I find it hilarious that you didn't catch that that was a joke.

...Thinking about it, now I'm actually somewhat scared--That means that you think another complete retro-active rebalance is even an option to be considered.  I thought you were far more rational than that. 

Secondly even then, we still come to the conclusion that the council, and pw, thought it was too much power for too little cost.

That means all of, what, two smart people?  You and Hapah?  Piecewise can almost certainly be talked onto our side anyway.

I guess you do have a point, in that it doesn't matter how rational our position is, or how strongly we believe in it; If you don't, then we lose.  AT WHICH POINT I MAKE THE SODS KILL YOU! AHHAHAHAHAHA!

The council has no power! We just advise pw, and if he agrees, report our findings. PW can easily veto the veto, but chose not to.

The council, and by that I mean you, has a similar amount of power to the United States President: Essentially none, aside from the power which other people perceive to exist.  Which is quite a lot of power.

[Radio Controlled]

Heh heh. Lots to take in here! I'll try to respond somewhere today, when I'm back from work.

[Corsair]

Simple solution to the assault suit problem:
1- Battlesuits are effectively crappier Assaultsuits and cost 15 tokens REGARDLESS of the variant bought.
2- Assaultsuits also cost 15 tokens same as the Battlesuit

Stock assaultsuits and stock battlesuits are identical [well not really but they have the same functions the assaultsuit is just better] and cost 15 tokens. As we can see an Assaultsuit could come with the same variants with the same price. The assaultsuit is just the next battlesuit, so there really shouldn't be a reason against allowing the old variants to be available to the assault suit as they are all PW approved [as far as I know].

EDIT: removed a bunch of rambling nonsense

[Radio Controlled]

Spoiler: PEW PEW lazorbeamz! (click to show/hide)

It's been a hard day's night, and I'd been working like a dog. Also, shorter break than hoped, so this might be rushed/might miss things.

But balance in relation to what? Your own beliefs on what balance is supposed to be? Not the already established balance of the game?

Isn't just about all (apart from pw) balance an opinion in the end? I can say the council does try to stay within the limits of the game, far as those are clear. Again, it's not "you cannot possibly have some more power than you hand in" and more "the council feels you are asking for too much for what you're willing to give up".

To give an extreme example, that's like saying "We have no power! We may have given that man the death sentence if he does not choose to repent, but the governor did not phone to give him a pardon! If he wanted, he could had given him a pardon, but he didn't! Therefore, we are not responsible for his death. The only one we can blame is him for not repenting and the governor for not calling us! Nobody but us!"

A nice scenario, but not entirely analogous, because in our case, this governor was present at every single meeting that led to the sentence. pw gets every single council pm, and has access to the thread discussion. Hell, I normally even try to give a link to the relevant topics to make things as easy for him as possible! Next to that, before the sentence, this governor was explicitly asked "do you want to stop it?" and he didn't. What more can we do, put a pistol to his head and force him to read all the posts at gunpoint?

What I'm saying is, you do have power. Piecewise had agreed on one thing, then you disagreed with that and piecewise decided not to disagree with you. You can't avoid the responsibility that power gives you by pretending you have no power.

When did pw agree to the price of the PEW? I know he said the design worked, but did he give a price quote anywhere? I'm honestly not sure at this point, could you show me perhaps? And the definition of power is something like 'The ability or capacity to act or do something effectively' or ' The ability or official capacity to exercise control; authority' (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/power) and according to that, no, I don't think we really have power. We have a great responsibility (to be honest and such), for sure! But, at the most, we have some soft 'power' in the form of a listening ear with the person actually deciding. If said person also listens to the counterarguments in the thread, and judges impartially, then the council is just another voice.

Of course, this goes on the idea that pw does indeed follow the discussions and gives his fair judgement based on all the data. If it were the case he doesn't really care that much and just skims things and goes "Yeah sure council, whatever", then the situation changes drastically. So, do you think this is the case? Far as I see it, he does care and tries to follow, but it can be a bit too much at times.

"The king holds the absolute power! We are merely his royal advisors, we have no real power anyways!"
Or, to quote ancients "My son rules all Greece" of Themistocles.

Excellent use of an ancient Greek! But PW isn't a child that can't make calculated decisions, and all the info is at his fingertips.

I thought the conclusion of his post was that your price was unreasonable. He even had math and tilde symbols and everything plus comparisons to the existing token system, showing how that item fit in there. All you have is your own belief on how things should be balanced and what should be reasonable.

For sport, let us make another calculation then, shall we?
From nik (gonna try to follow his prices somewhat):

12=9(HEP) + 3~5 (focusing + cooling)
12=2~4(black box) + 5~7 (generator) + 1~2 (focusing) + 2~3 (cooling)
--------
PEW-generator-cooling=12 - 5~7 - 2~3 = 2~5

HEP = 2-4(black box) + 5-7 (generator). So, say box=3 and generator=6
PEW = 3 box +6 generator + 1 (focusing) + 2 (cooling)
2 PEW on assaultsuit: 2*3 (box) + 2*1 (focusing) + 2*3 (generator, because I kinda doubt the assaultsuit has so much extra juice it can completely take over the extra power needed from two 5-7 token generators without hampering normal suit function) + 2 * 3 (all the rewiring and mods and whatever needed to connect the weapon system to the suit's generators and outer armor, and adaptations so the armor can function as a radiator) = 20, or 10 per PEW.

Next, should every token you deduct from the suit be worth full value? If items on a suit don't cost their full value (eg a kinamp), should you get back their full value when trading them in?

But think about it in terms of gameplay. If people on Hephaestus can't create at least equal equipment to the ones already existing in the armoury for the same price, then what is the point of them trying to design things?

Shouldn't the basis of this argument be trying to limit the PEWPEW so that it has more or less the same capabilities and price as other variants (EDIT: or be more expensive if it must have more functionality, although I dislike that due to personal preference, I'd prefer it if all variants are the same price), rather than trying to come up with arbitary arguments about what its price should be based on anyone's beliefs on what is and is not balanced? To work with the designer to reach a compromise with that as a goal? I think it would be a more objective and useful way of going about balancing this.

I personally try to take the vanilla assaultsuit as base. With battlesuits, we have the situation that I don't think a lot of people will ever buy a regular one, cause several variants offer a so much better deal. Is that what we want? Create a suit, then make variants so the old suit pales in comparison? Some extra power, sure! But not overly much.

I mean, imagine I wanna make an AoW variant sans cloak, armor, or weapons. I say "it should be cheaper than normal", which is reasonable. But if I then wanna price it at 5 tokens, that's not ok, not because it shouldn't be cheaper, but because it's just too much.

Solution: Make the Avatar of War cost 50 token, make all BS and AS variants cost appropriately to their gear. Then the 2PEW AS can cost 28 token easy.

I asked pw before to make the avatar more costly, in an effort to give people like you, Sean, more breathing room for suits! And once this dies down, I'm gonna ask how much more it should cost, if pw wants that, and start making my extra payments.


Also, syv, I see you discovered yourlogicalfallacyis.com. Good for you! As a reward, have this: http://existentialcomics.com/comic/9

Because unlike Radio, PW actually is fine with better technology making superior items, so hexbug and hexsand are more effective armor by price.

Pfff, you duns knows what yousa talking about! My opinion I voiced in the council was that Seans' proposal (20 token +no kinamp+no esdf) was reasonable, to me, and might only need a liiittle tweaking (an extra token, a small stat requirement, stuff like that). But, when speaking for the council, I defend the judgement that comes out, out of respect for my fellow councilmen, and because that seems proper (can't do it themselves, they're supposed to stay secret!) Because yes, I do try to put my personal opinion aside when needed. What, you think the council is always in full agreement? I try to make it clear what is my opinion, and what is council opinion, but I'll admit that can get confusing.

I've said it before: in general, I'm very a-ok with new items that do better, per token, than old ones. But just not too much.

A lot of poor thought does not make a little bit of good thought; It just makes a lot of poor thought.  Even if you somehow arrived at the correct answer, if you used a poor methodology it's still a poorly thought out answer.

Not that you're correct, mind.

I can't defend our thought processes without quoting every pm (a crapton of work) but if you don't think us capable of decently thinking out an idea, that's sad, but still just your opinion. I can also just say 'all them tinker nuts be thinking poorly' and it still wouldn't change anything, just an ad hominem.

Wait, what?  It isn't already outright stated that we CANNOT do that?  Why was I plotting about loans, and not just smuggling valuables off-planet?

That's what I thought, yes. But Sean now wants to prototype an item that's approved in concept, but not in price, aka not really finished.

This has no bearing on the current discussion, but didn't I use this exact argument against you, before?  It was guns rather than suits, but still.

Did you? Probably. Either way, I didn't think it'd be a problem, but it appears it might become one. One reason I asked the council and pw if we should change the way prototyping works, or even scrap it, but then this came along and put that on hold.

To my knowledge, neither of these variants sacrifice as much as the 2PEW does.  So, this leads to a question: why do you think the 2PEW is so much more powerful than either of those?  Because it can occupy both roles, despite being less effective at either?

I said before, in my opinion the battlesuit variants aren't balanced against each other. Why would anyone ever buy a regular battlesuit really? Should we mimic this imbalance in our next gen items then? Or try to balance them a bit more, so each variants and the normal one are viable purchases?

Nik has already done an excellent job at showing why the 2PEW is so cheap.  Even if you take his estimate as a severe lower bound, and put the price closer to 12 tokens or something, it's still far cheaper than the integrated weapons on either of the other IW variants.

Sure, but one can juggle imaginary numbers in a lot of ways, see above.

I find it hilarious that you didn't catch that that was a joke.

I did, hence the semi-silly answer (exploding computers).

...Thinking about it, now I'm actually somewhat scared--That means that you think another complete retro-active rebalance is even an option to be considered.  I thought you were far more rational than that. 

But it seems I, in turn, was taken too serious. My straight opinion: I think some pw armory items aren't completely balanced. I think it is theoretically possible to fix this. If pw asked me to do so, I would be willing to. But I won't ever instigate this myself, because the game isn't completely broken (so no extreme urgency), because it'd be a crapton of work, and bring more pain than benefit overall.

Do you think every item and mechanic is perfectly balanced, syv? If no, do you think it'd be possible to fix (some of) these, either yourself or via community effort? If yes, do you think the game is still playable despite the unbalance, and that it isn't really needed to go through that gargantuan effort for what it would gain? If yes, we think the same.

That means all of, what, two smart people?  You and Hapah? 

Wait, smart people with poor thought processes? And no, there's more than two peeps on the council.

Piecewise can almost certainly be talked onto our side anyway.
I guess you do have a point, in that it doesn't matter how rational our position is, or how strongly we believe in it; If you don't, then we lose.

Such confidence in the capabilities of our gm, astounding! And again, PW can always overrule us, and I try to give him all the info he needs to make a good judgement.

AT WHICH POINT I MAKE THE SODS KILL YOU! AHHAHAHAHAHA!

THEN COME AND GET ME YA BASTARDS! YOU WANT A PIECE? PLENTY OF MIYAMOTO TO GO AROUND!
Cue toaster calling me fat.



Also, sean, a question: you are trying to use the pyramid to improve the PEW's power, right? Suppose you can do that, will these improvements be applied to the PEW and suits carrying them? If yes, will that mean we should rebalance them all over again then, or that you hope they'll just get a power boost sans price increase? Because a less trusting person (misanthropic cynic mode activate!) might suspect you're trying to get this 'lesser' version through at a cost reasonable for the lower power, and then increase the power afterwards and hope you'll be able to convince people we don't need to rebalance, or that rebalance would be ungfair. I don't think you have 'malicious' intent, really don't, but it's possible. And even if not, we'll have to rebalance all over again! Isn't it more logical to wait, see what upgrades you can get, and then make the PEWsuit?

Next to that, I again must ask: why not pay for the pyramid with tokens, and leave the suit be for now?

Aaaand out of time. Hope there's not too much spelling mistakes or unfinished sentences. Or really, really bad math. There probably is. Internet cookie for spotting mistakes!