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[syvarris]

Unholy, I'm guessing you never watched the video PW posted that showed his decision process?  He said that anybody with +0 endurance or lower wouldn't even get to roll--they would just instantly die.  He went through the characters and saw that Mesk had +0 end, and said that he would die because of that.  He also apologized, if I remember correctly.

Later on in the video I believe he commented that Mesk would have died anyway, due to his microbots, but the first reason for Mesk to die was the lack of end.

[Kriellya]

GenKno, because fuck the Musicality.

Guess what killed me?
Guess.
guess

Aux? Because GenKno shouldn't work like that, I think. Or Piecewise has once again been fucking with us-oh wait.
Yeah, that explains a lot.

It was both, actually! He made a GenKno roll of 2, which got 'I know, I can use the atmosphere in my suit!'

...followed by an Aux of 1, resulting in him immediately pulling off his helmet XD (then an End of 1 to seal his fate )

[Ozarck]

I was under the impression that Mesk died because his nanobot buddies kept trying to fix him despite his continued exposure to vacuum.

He died because he didn't have the constitution necessary to even have a chance to survive 14 nuclear blasts simultaneously, even with Pancaek's good rolls and group shield.

No, piecewise stated in the past that vacuum is SUPER BAD for his health.
Likely because his nanobots consume parts of his body to fix his injuries and the vacuum damages his skin and outer musculature constantly.

I watched the "let's play" of that turn. He died because he didn't have the constitution to make a save roll against nuclear explosion.

And according to this post, he was permadead at the time of the explosion: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=150110.msg6246485#msg6246485
of course, this is just my understanding of events. Maybe the whole "bugs eat the corpse" bit is in there too. I know hte rescue guy got one of them from his charred flesh, so ...

[Radio Controlled]

Council report: Sean, I put up your proposal of 5 tokens + no kinamps + no esdf for the 2 pew + needed modifications. There were some who could agree to that, but others thought it wasn't a balanced idea. They made a counterproposal, but I told them I was pretty sure you'd never accept that one. An attempt for a new compromis between these was attempted but didn't pan out, and the idea as it stands was veto'd in the end. I asked pw for a final confirmation to check if he was fully behind it, but that was several days ago and he hasn't responded yet, and I felt it wasn't proper to keep you hanging like that. Note that the people who veto'd said the core idea certainly wasn't bad, but that they felt it was just too much for too little (they did point out they felt that dropping 14 tokens of value off of a 15 token suit shouldn't be worth their full value). I can quote you the counterproposal, if you really want.

[Nikitian]

@Radio Controlled
What about the counter-pressure suit underwear?

And - you know, it's not 15-token suit; it's 20-token suit (because assaultsuit was really made with 20-tokens in mind), or hundred(s)-something-token suit if we are assembling it manually. Old battlesuits fit this fine with their expensive heavy laser and "bigger LESHO". But, well, whatever. No use complaining about it to you since I'd guess you were not behind that veto and opposition to Sean's design/cost.

@Syvarris See? Do you still think the Council deserves to run Tinker? Or to continue to exist?
^{_{(Nah, I am kidding. Your point still stands true. But this did come quite a bit saddening and a bit upsetting right after your brilliant defence of their competence, effectiveness and, above all, benevolence. )}}

[Radio Controlled]

Ah, sorry, I didn't bring it up after you said it was mostly a formality. But if you'd still like me to do so, just say so and I'll put it on the agenda!

Also, if pw ever wants to dissolve the council, or give us tinker, it's up to him to decide that, we just practice our trade within the limits of our mandate.

[Parisbre56]

Irrelevant: Any ideas on how you would keep those children in check? I mean, sure indoctrinating them while they're young should work for most of them, but you're raising people who are supposed to have a certain way of thinking if they are going to be great magi-scientists. Open to new ideas, few preconceptions about the world, how it works and how it should work, willing to question things, able to think of new solutions, "addicted" to the pursuit of knowledge... There's the promise of shinies for them to research, but even that might not be enough. Because the way I see it, there's three reasons to join ARM: because you're crazy/daredevil/too stupid to realize what you were signing/for the drugs/for the loot and booty/something along those lines, because you hate the UWM and its values or think ARM and its values are better than it, or because you think the ARM or Steve knows best about what's best for humanity (or at least have better ideas than the UWM) and trust them to do it. So what happens if none of those 4 work? If they feel no loyalty, no need for shinies and little craziness, do not see the ARM as better but as a force that causes strife and splits humanity making it weak and feel that they are smart enough that they can do a better job than Steve or the generals or start demanding they know everything you know? Or even worse, what if they find out on their own?

Of course, these are concerns about every human being, but in this group they're probably more pronounced. I'm merely asking from an RP perspective, since I'm not sure if piecewise will bother with that.

And what happens to the ones that don't make the cut? Workers and Sod commanders? Diplomats? Our new unit of Urban Executor and Shadow Walker equivalent (the one I talked about with Syvarris that has the new upgrades installed)?

[Empiricist]

Yeah, indoctrination is out of the question for me, since it's quite iffy morally for Charles, not to mention that it can cause issues if they get exposed to new ideas and whatnot. Current angle I'm considering is that, it's best to ensure that they have something to live for. People to care about, a future to look forwards to. Promoting curiosity and perhaps a sense of heroism would definitely help. Then to slowly introduce the idea of the whole "universe is breaking", try and appeal to the whole curiosity and heroism bit. Appealing to the desire to live and protect loved ones would also be used, but kept in moderation. We need scientists, not over-stressed desperates.

Developing them as an advisory panel of sorts could work. Basically progressively give them more and more control over some of the research directions (up to a certain limit of course). Exposure to Steve, possibly as a parental figure of sorts should at least help reign in some potential issues into arguments and differences in principle that can be negotiated and solved via compromises, rather than some sort of irreversible rebellion. The main goal would be to create partners that we can convince and work with, rather than peons, less for any reason of morality, but just to ensure that we have a bit of room to keep them on their leashes (and a bit of padding time to see any signs of potential defection, so that, "corrective measures" may be taken).

[Toaster]

And what happens to the ones that don't make the cut? Workers and Sod commanders? Diplomats? Our new unit of Urban Executor and Shadow Walker equivalent (the one I talked about with Syvarris that has the new upgrades installed)?

The manip brains have to come from somewhere.

[Empiricist]

Can't we just place a large chunk of synthflesh in a room with magic and watch how it uses it to try and murder us all?

EDIT: Better yet, just throw some POWs into an arena with a large chunk of synthflesh that is provided with space magic and a means of experimentation. It'll just be like a Colosseum! Except we'd be watching how lions MacGyver people to death using spacemagic.

[Nikitian]

And what happens to the ones that don't make the cut? Workers and Sod commanders? Diplomats? Our new unit of Urban Executor and Shadow Walker equivalent (the one I talked about with Syvarris that has the new upgrades installed)?

ARM frontline service, most likely; as in shipping off the few inevitable crazies/daredevils (and maybe volunteers) to the Sword and her sister ships. (See what I meant about an alternative possible background?  ) Brain-piloting (being batteries for manips) might be reserved for only the worst offenders (like, traitors to the ARM, and the like).


As for indoctrination, yeah, I was also thinking along the lines of gradually introducing them to the concept of "universe breaking" and the fact that only ARM is currently up to the problem. Civil life 'hooks' are fine, really. Actually, not sure how well it could work, but I also thought of introducing them from a very young age to the concept of "the Adversary" (you know, the usual "dark"/"evil" counterpart to the god-being(s) in many, many religions; Devil in Christianity and Islam, Angra Mainyu in Zoroastrism, Mara in Buddhism, etc.) - with all the Fun awaiting humanity in the future (STAN, the Star-Eater lurking somewhere out there, "the Coming" of some great danger, Space Cthulhu, etc.etc.) it might be just enough of a common banner to unite even those who would rather stray from ARM.
And sadly, for Maurice, this last part isn't some sort of indoctrination. It's a hard truth that one has to stomach to truly work for the ARM. That might or might not be biased, but that's what he'd honestly want to convey to these children.

The main goal would be to create partners that we can convince and work with, rather than peons, less for any reason of morality, but just [for efficiency reasons].

Yep, that's exactly how I would put it. Now, it doesn't mean this path isn't also preferred because it's more ethical, but that is the real argument to be used in a completely cynical and pragmatic argument, should one theoretically happen.

[Sean Mirrsen]

(STAN, the Star-Eater lurking somewhere out there, "the Coming" of some great danger, Space Cthulhu, etc.etc.)

I think that, in honor of space-happy little green rocket men everywhere, it needs to be called the Space Kraken.

[syvarris]

@Syvarris See? Do you still think the Council deserves to run Tinker? Or to continue to exist?

Tinker is increasingly the rope I gave others with which to hang me.

February 07, 2014.  Increasingly.

@Child rearing

I think the best way to raise the kids would be to create a semi-religion, which they are raised with from birth.  Not one with myths or anything, but teach them that learning and inventing new technologies is the highest calling, that it inevitably solves all problems, etc.  This conveniently would make them hate the UWM, because the UWM has a tech ban, and intentionally stifles scientific growth.  We shouldn't need to tell them the UWM is bad; It should be plainly obvious from the beginning.

I don't think we should create some dark god as the devil, especially not if that dark god exists.  If there is a hell, it is simply stagnation, wasting away and wallowing in your flaws.  When they're older, we might teach them about space cthulu and what not, but as a perfectly mundane problem to be dealt with, like everything else.

That's another thing--There is no magic for these kids.  Simply physics that is insufficiently understood.  Once they're old enough to understand atomic structures, we show them frictionless materials, and help the kids learn how their structure allows them to be frictionless.  Once we teach them how something works, we show them something which subverts it, and have them figure out how it subverts it, only helping if we need to.  Once they're adults, they'll be doing the same thing, except they'll be figuring out things nobody has figured out.

[Parisbre56]

I think Syv's idea is the best so far. A "religion" similar in its spirit to the Wayferers', a "religion" based on the pursuit of knowledge. There are, however, still problems in the two extremes:

1) There is still the chance of getting swayed by enemy propaganda (or by simple exposure to other ideals) and getting converted to UWM (or simply counterproductive ideals). Granted, in a religious group like that, any dissenters (or under-performers) could easily be found and isolated before they become a serious problem and their numbers should be substantially low, but they are still a risk, especially if they start trying to spread their newly received ideals.

2) What if in the pursuit of knowledge they discover something to be absolutely right? If they get obsessed with an idea that they believe is right? And even worse, what if that idea really is right (at lest, from a certain preselective of this breaking world)? What if it is so right we cannot even comprehend it? That is, short of keeping everyone on a very tight leash, how do you prevent accidental or intentional dead world or quiet world outcomes (or their smaller scale equivelants)? (Assuming such scenarios can be prevented, of course. If an experiment results in something bad due to lack of knowledge rather than intentional action or shoddy safety procedures, there's not much that can be done about that.)

This is a fun problem. Sounds like a paradox: "How can have a group of people that does exactly what you want it to do (neither more nor less) 100% of the time, yet is also mostly free of your control?" Probably impossible to solve, unless you're some sort of god-computer that can monitor, predict and influence everyone's behaviour all the time, but it's fun to think about it.





Semi-relevant quote I stumbled upon:

If knowledge is power and power corrupts... how will human kind ever survive?

[Ozarck]

@Syv
So your semi-religion is standard Modern Philosophy of Science?

@Paris
1) the danger of open-mindedness (other ideals make sense!)

2) the danger of close-mindedness (only MY ideal makes sense!)