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Petro Poroshenko

5 (29.4%)

Yulia Tymoshenko

2 (11.8%)

Oleg Lyashko

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6 (35.3%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[Sergarr]

They still light up the streets? Wouldn't they impose a blackout?

That's a bad suggestion, because with lights, they at least theoretically can aim artillery strikes on military targets.

Without lights, the civilian casualties will be higher.

[Helgoland]

Knit: Plausible... But what would that imply for the West? What actions should be taken to end this conflict? Because as far as I can see there's no way of freeing Putin from the trap he's gotten into, so the only option would be supporting Ukraine to the point of military victory...

Sergarr: Why would they want that? They're already using the civilian population as meat shields.

[Sergarr]

Knit: Plausible... But what would that imply for the West? What actions should be taken to end this conflict? Because as far as I can see there's no way of freeing Putin from the trap he's gotten into, so the only option would be supporting Ukraine to the point of military victory...

Sergarr: Why would they want that? They're already using the civilian population as meat shields.

That's a pretty extraordinary claim you've just made. Unless you have information proving that the rebels are literally using civilians as meat shields (holding them before themselves to absorb bullets), I'm afraid I must be forced to refute it.

Fighting in cities does not automatically means they use civilians as meat shields, by the way.

[Helgoland]

Well, there were reports - from journalists sent into their cities, no less - that they have artillery mounted in trucks and shoot from various positions in the city. The reporter in question was in a hospital, and heard a loud noise; she was informed that it had probably been such a separatist artillery vehicle shooting right outside the hospital. The vehicle moved away; the counter-artillery then went on to hit the hospital.
It's not literal usage as meat shields, but it's as close as it gets in an artillery war. The separatists certainly have demonstrated that they care very little about the civilian population.

[smjjames]

Well, there were reports - from journalists sent into their cities, no less - that they have artillery mounted in trucks and shoot from various positions in the city. The reporter in question was in a hospital, and heard a loud noise; she was informed that it had probably been such a separatist artillery vehicle shooting right outside the hospital. The vehicle moved away; the counter-artillery then went on to hit the hospital.
It's not literal usage as meat shields, but it's as close as it gets in an artillery war. The separatists certainly have demonstrated that they care very little about the civilian population.

Shades of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? I'm not calling the Donetsk people terrorists, just noticing the similaroties here, but the tactics are very similar to what Hamas did.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Ukraine considers local production of Hongdu L-15 trainer\light attack aircraft

Not  impressive but we need to start somewhere to create our own modern air-force

[Sergarr]

...Just how many airplanes has Ukraine lost during this conflict? According to Wikipedia, U has somewhere around 200 air vehicles, yet the last time I heard about air was in August.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

We don't use aircrafts since the ceasefire as was agreed in Minsk. That is why you hear nothing about airstrikes starting from September 5.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_aircraft_losses_during_the_2014_pro-Russian_unrest_in_Ukraine

That list may be incomplete, but I see no reason to believe that many more was shot down

[Knit tie]

Well, there were reports - from journalists sent into their cities, no less - that they have artillery mounted in trucks and shoot from various positions in the city. The reporter in question was in a hospital, and heard a loud noise; she was informed that it had probably been such a separatist artillery vehicle shooting right outside the hospital. The vehicle moved away; the counter-artillery then went on to hit the hospital.
It's not literal usage as meat shields, but it's as close as it gets in an artillery war. The separatists certainly have demonstrated that they care very little about the civilian population.

Shades of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict? I'm not calling the Donetsk people terrorists, just noticing the similaroties here, but the tactics are very similar to what Hamas did.

The problem with civil wars, unlike regular ones, is they tend to be messy, and the goal's not usually 'Take over a country with the infrastructure and population still intact' and more something like 'Declare independence' or 'Take over the country at all costs' or 'Join another country', which means they just don't particularly care.

They're probably using it in this way to say 'Hey, look! They're shelling civilian buildings!'

Or what the rebels doing could be just a standard mobile artillery tactic, because if a battery remains in place after it has fired, it almost inevitably gets destroyed by the counter-barrage. And the rebel artillery can't really choose from where to shoot that much, either, it's all dependent on the positions of the enemy.

[Frumple]

... pretty sure standard mobile artillery tactics don't include firing from high value civilian locations. Because, y'know, counter artillery, damaged/destroyed civil infrastructure, and dead civilians. They're things. All of which you kinda' want to avoid, but especially the latter two.

[Sergarr]

It's standard mobile artillery tactics for fighting in cities.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Yes, it's standard tactics for terrorists to use civilians as shields.

[Sergarr]

Terrorists don't form army regiments.

It's like you don't even know what word "terrorist" means.

[Sergarr]

Or what the rebels doing could be just a standard mobile artillery tactic, because if a battery remains in place after it has fired, it almost inevitably gets destroyed by the counter-barrage. And the rebel artillery can't really choose from where to shoot that much, either, it's all dependent on the positions of the enemy.

Wasn't referring to them moving, I was referring to them deciding to fire outside a hospital.

Well that's a dumb decision and I hope whoever did that was punished for that.

[mainiac]

What do you think?

I think it smells of bullshit because if he was actually trying to protect people he wouldn't have done it this way and there would be evidence of the problem he claims to be solving.  The Russian actions have engendered a chaotic conflict.  He hasn't been transparent with the Ukrainian government.  That just makes it impossible to defuse the conflict and ensures that there be tons of fog of war that gets civilians killed.  Maybe you want to say that "The West" would have pissed in the well but Putin never gave them the chance.  He started a civil war before even trying to protect civilians.  The worst possible thing that could happen for a civilian population in the modern era is a civil war.  Long grinding conflicts are what encourage partisan massacres and retaliation.

And like UR pointed out, where's the evidence of oppression of Russian civilians?  Most Russian civilians are in territory firmly held by the Ukrainian government.  Russian civilians aren't fleeing these areas in terror.  There isn't ethnic cleansing.  Given that this is supposedly an ethnic civil war we would expect much, much, much worse.  We wouldn't expect complaints about changes in the language laws, we would expect mobs going through neighborhoods burning homes and looting shops or dragging corpses through the streets.

In a nutshell, chaos is the danger that the humanitarian seeks to avoid in war and the only chaos we see here wouldn't have occured without Russian action.  Maybe someone would want to justify that Russian intervention was necessary for other reasons.  However it's very clear that Russia wasn't forced to intervene to protect the civilian population, the civilian population would have been far, far safer without Russian actions.