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Petro Poroshenko

5 (29.4%)

Yulia Tymoshenko

2 (11.8%)

Oleg Lyashko

2 (11.8%)

Anatoly Hrytsenko

2 (11.8%)

Serhiy Tihipko

0 (0%)

Mykhailo Dobkin

0 (0%)

Other

6 (35.3%)

Total Members Voted: 17

[Loud Whispers]

Malice does not seem appropriate unless the civilians were put in harm's way for the sole purpose of their destruction. Ruthlessness seems more appropriate.

[Sheb]

Or lack of choice.

Anyway, any of the Russian speaker here could track down that interview by Strelkov? Apparently he claims he started the war with a squad of special forces, the guys that took over Donetsk's government building at the very beginning.

[Knit tie]

Malice does not seem appropriate unless the civilians were put in harm's way for the sole purpose of their destruction. Ruthlessness seems more appropriate.

Entirely possible. Either they did it because they hoped the government wouldn't fire on it, or they did it so they would get fired on then they could pretend to be the good guys.

Or they really didn't, or couldn't afford to care that much about civilians, who just got stuck in a crossfire, like it usually happens in artillery duels.

Or lack of choice.

Anyway, any of the Russian speaker here could track down that interview by Strelkov? Apparently he claims he started the war with a squad of special forces, the guys that took over Donetsk's government building at the very beginning.

Here's the Russian inteview. Suffice to say, Mr. Strelok was rather misquoted and misinterpreted by the Ukrainian news agency UNIAN.

[miljan]

Or lack of choice.

Anyway, any of the Russian speaker here could track down that interview by Strelkov? Apparently he claims he started the war with a squad of special forces, the guys that took over Donetsk's government building at the very beginning.

I think this is the interview
http://zavtra.ru/content/view/kto-tyi-strelok/

But its long and so far can not find it
The dude said he had over 20 000 volontiers in may, but did not have enough arms to accept them all...

[Sergarr]

Or lack of choice.

Anyway, any of the Russian speaker here could track down that interview by Strelkov? Apparently he claims he started the war with a squad of special forces, the guys that took over Donetsk's government building at the very beginning.

http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1905313.html

It's probably that interview.

Lots of interesting details here, actually.

Apparently Strelkov has violated somebody's order in retreating from Slavyansk. He also hints that the person who gave that order may have been interesting in seeing his forces defeated.

Also yet another direct confirmation of Russian army's regiment helping separatists directly.

Apparently the southern charge to near Mariupol mostly consisted of Russian regiments. They though had an order to not take Mariupol.

[Sheb]

Mmmmh, I'm willing to believe the Ukrainians overintepreted, but could you tell me what he said?

[Sean Mirrsen]

Though it does kinda beg the question of who shows more blatant disregard for human life - the people firing artillery out of a populated city, or the people firing artillery into a populated city?

When it comes to counter-barrages? Almost certainly the ones firing first. There's disregard there on both sides, but the one actively painting a civilian target as, well, a target, is the scummier of the two.

Yes, I do agree that the behavior of the guys firing from nearby potential civilian buildings is reprehensible. On the other hand, the ones firing the counter-barrage seem to repeatedly fail to take into account the minor issues of a)the artillery in the city is mobile, moves off immediately after firing, and counter-artillery is not likely to hit it, b)they're firing into a populated city, so the least they can try to do is check their targets maybe?

Like, perhaps see if the artillery piece doing the firing is still there? The old-fashioned way, give the coordinates to the firing crews, but postpone giving the order to retaliate until the target fires another shot, confirming its presence. It may inflict some extra damage on your forces, but both stops making it seem like you're shooting civilian buildings for the heck of it, and actually gives you a chance of hitting that mobile artillery piece that takes less time to pack up and move off than it takes your own artillery to get a bead on their position.

[Knit tie]

Mmmmh, I'm willing to believe the Ukrainians overintepreted, but could you tell me what he said?

Two of his main points are:
1) Ukraine's response to Donbass secession was rather similar to Russia's response to Chechen succession, i.e., massive artillery barrages targeted at everything in general and attacking without attempting negotiation.
2) Rebel command is a nest of vipers.

[Sergarr]

Mmmmh, I'm willing to believe the Ukrainians overintepreted, but could you tell me what he said?

Two of his main points are:
1) Ukraine's response to Donbass secession was rather similar to Russia's response to Chechen succession, i.e., massive artillery barrages and attacking without attempting negotiation.
2) Rebel command is a nest of vipers.

2*) Rebel command was non-existent at best, and actively malevolent at worst.

[Knit tie]

Mmmmh, I'm willing to believe the Ukrainians overintepreted, but could you tell me what he said?

Two of his main points are:
1) Ukraine's response to Donbass secession was rather similar to Russia's response to Chechen succession, i.e., massive artillery barrages and attacking without attempting negotiation.
2) Rebel command is a nest of vipers.

2*) Rebel command was non-existent at best, and actively malevolent at worst.

2**) Maybe Russia even wanted the rebels to lose without actually making it obvious that Russia wanted them to lose.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

They though had an order to not take Mariupol.

Sure, how Strelok can say that Russia failed to take Mariupol because forward elements were delayed long enough to prepare for defense?

[Sergarr]

They though had an order to not take Mariupol.

Sure, how Strelok can say that Russia failed to take Mariupol because forward elements were delayed long enough to prepare for defense?

If Russia wanted to take Mariupol, they would have done that. Just like they did with Saur-Mogila, and Ilovaisk, and Lugansk airport (probably?). The Ukrainian army hasn't actually managed to stop the Russian army from achieving it's objective at the time - making sure that the separatists don't get defeated.

[Knit tie]

They though had an order to not take Mariupol.

Sure, how Strelok can say that Russia failed to take Mariupol because forward elements were delayed long enough to prepare for defense?

If Russia wanted to take Mariupol, they would have done that. Just like they did with Saur-Mogila, and Ilovaisk, and Lugansk airport (probably?). The Ukrainian army hasn't actually managed to stop the Russian army from achieving it's objective at the time - making sure that the separatists don't get defeated.

To firther elaborate: if the Russian army was concerned with conquering Ukraine, they already would've long been doing that, and not just sitting in Donbass making sure the rebels don't get hit too badly.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

[/sarcasm mode] Sure, there are only victories that Russian army had in Ukraine. It can't lose after all.  Russia never actually tried to take Mariupol,  Donetsk Airport or Debaltsevo[/sarcasm]

[Sheb]

Also, there are limits to what the Russian army can do in Ukraine while still maintaining plausible deniability.