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Petro Poroshenko

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Yulia Tymoshenko

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Oleg Lyashko

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Total Members Voted: 17

[Sheb]

Well, bit of background: my dad worked for the Georgian government in 2008. He was responsible for fighting the propaganda war in the Western media. (What you earlier called "feeding the western media a huge plate of baloney.", we'll have to disagree on that one). One thing he keeps repeating if how much the Kremlin's media game has improved since 2008.

Basically, in 2008, the message they tried to get out was that Russia was the good guy. But they failed: despite media budgets that were dozens of time larger than what my dad had at his disposition (He was after all, working mostly alone) the overall narrative was negative about Russia.

This time around, despite the actual situation being a much clearer case of Russia aggression, large swathes of the population, from the far-right to leftist liberal found itself agreeing with Russia. How come?

Well, one thing about being a liberal is that you're bound to hate your government. Just go over in the America thread for example: all you get is pages after pages of complaints about how things are run, despite the fact that the US is one of the best place to live in globally. This is actually part of an healthy democratic process: voicing out your complaints is the first step toward addressing them. But then, when you're used to hear shit about your government and your media day after day, it doesn't take much to forget that they're actually pretty damn good compared to global average. Or to end up supporting an aggressive autocratic leader like Putin, because he's opposing your government/the US and you know that these are assholes.

And that's the real genius of the western-directed Russian propaganda: they don't try to prop up Russia, they just focus on showing the West's failing, and putting all the Ukrainin dirt they can find in the spotlight. And god knows the West is full of failings.

A prime example of that would be Russia Today's American channel. They're doing some great reporting on America's problem (I like Abby Martin for example). And they don't make stuff up. Their goal is not to make Americans enthusiast about Russia, is to make them as cynic as Russians.

[Knit tie]

Well, bit of background: my dad worked for the Georgian government in 2008. He was responsible for fighting the propaganda war in the Western media. (What you earlier called "feeding the western media a huge plate of baloney.", we'll have to disagree on that one). One thing he keeps repeating if how much the Kremlin's media game has improved since 2008.

Basically, in 2008, the message they tried to get out was that Russia was the good guy. But they failed: despite media budgets that were dozens of time larger than what my dad had at his disposition (He was after all, working mostly alone) the overall narrative was negative about Russia.

This time around, despite the actual situation being a much clearer case of Russia aggression, large swathes of the population, from the far-right to leftist liberal found itself agreeing with Russia. How come?

Well, one thing about being a liberal is that you're bound to hate your government. Just go over in the America thread for example: all you get is pages after pages of complaints about how things are run, despite the fact that the US is one of the best place to live in globally. This is actually part of an healthy democratic process: voicing out your complaints is the first step toward addressing them. But then, when you're used to hear shit about your government and your media day after day, it doesn't take much to forget that they're actually pretty damn good compared to global average. Or to end up supporting an aggressive autocratic leader like Putin, because he's opposing your government/the US and you know that these are assholes.

And that's the real genius of the western-directed Russian propaganda: they don't try to prop up Russia, they just focus on showing the West's failing, and putting all the Ukrainin dirt they can find in the spotlight. And god knows the West is full of failings.

A prime example of that would be Russia Today's American channel. They're doing some great reporting on America's problem (I like Abby Martin for example). And they don't make stuff up. Their goal is not to make Americans enthusiast about Russia, is to make them as cynic as Russians.

Interesting. I never thought about it this way, but it sounds plausible - sowing dissent and dissatisfaction in the enemy's ranks by bringing out all the dirt on them. That said, I am not going to revise my, as it turns out, western liberal position in the light of this discovery, as both Russia and the West are still bastards of the highest calibre, and I still can sympathise with the Donbass rebels, if only because their opponents are Nazis (cultural thing, really, stemming from ~17mil. dead civilians the last time Nazis appeared around here).

[Ukrainian Ranger]

How likely that Russia sends their newest version of T-72 without their own crews?

[Knit tie]

tank pic

How likely that Russia sends their newest version of T-72 without their own crews?

Considering that T-72 is second-generation tank and that Russia has T-80 third generation tanks and is trying to ramp up their production as part of its military modernisation, I think it's possible that either some of the worst, most obsolete T-72s got sent to Ukraine to "die in battle" or that a bunch of new, modernised T-72s got equipped with Russian-trained crews in order to undergo battlefield testing.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

It is not most obsolete T-72.... That is 2013 modernization of T-72. http://www.military-today.com/tanks/t72b3.htm

I see you are completely OK on battletesting tank on Ukrainians, right? Noted
And I think that in your mindset that is still Ukrainian civil war with Russian tank crews


I wish you to have war at your home.

[Sergarr]

I wish you to have war at your home.

how about no

we have an actual army that can defend our territory from that

[Ukrainian Ranger]

I said it before, and I'll repeat it now, when German aviation bombed European cities they were absolutely sure that Luftwaffe will not allow anyone to do the same with their cities. They were wrong

[Erkki]

I wish you to have war at your home.

how about no

we have an actual army that can defend our territory from that

Russian army actually is for defending something?

[LordSlowpoke]

I wish you to have war at your home.

do we wish people to have wars at their home now

is this what we're doing

well shit, even if i wished that it wouldn't change your situation and you have my condolences for that

but i'd like to wish war upon the american midwest, uzbekistan and the northern kurils

[Sergarr]

I wish you to have war at your home.

how about no

we have an actual army that can defend our territory from that

Russian army actually is for defending something?

Chechnya and South Ossetia?

I said it before, and I'll repeat it now, when German aviation bombed European cities they were absolutely sure that Luftwaffe will not allow anyone to do the same with their cities. They were wrong

Germans did not have the Bomb and they had to fight the war on two fronts against two to-be-superpowers.

Nobody is going to invade Russia, relax.

[smjjames]

I wish you to have war at your home.

how about no

we have an actual army that can defend our territory from that

Not to mention HUGE amounts of territory to move around and hide in. Plus home territory advantage.

Also, I don't want a nuclear war, no thanks. Though a nuclear war would be extremely counterproductive to all sides.

Also, what is vata? Is that like vat or tank or something?

[Knit tie]

I wish you to have war at your home.

I wish for Ukraine to reach peace as soon as possible and for all of your friends and loved ones to come home safely.

@Smjjames. Vata is Russian for cotton wool, which was the main filling of Soviet proto-puffer coats that were part of Red Army's and gulag prisoners' winter uniforms. Those jackets were called vatniks and nowadays vatnik is also used as a derogatory term for a stereotypical dumb Russian jingoist. The corresponding term for Ukrainian jingoists is salnik.

[mainiac]

A prime example of that would be Russia Today's American channel. They're doing some great reporting on America's problem (I like Abby Martin for example). And they don't make stuff up. Their goal is not to make Americans enthusiast about Russia, is to make them as cynic as Russians.

Reaction against this propaganda is probably why I get so pissed off and aggressive towards Knit Tie.  As an American you are taught to always look back to the last government self serving propaganda.  Bush and WMDs, the many lies of Vietnam like Gulf of Tonkin, Iran-Contra, etc.  In typical American-centric fashion I assume that this would be the case but even more so in Russia.  So for me it's just about a pattern of deception.  By the time that Putin says that he is not going to annex Crimea while he's already actively annexing it I conclude that it's obvious that everything coming from Putin and Putin aligned press is propaganda.  (I say press too because in American politics Fox News wasn't a mouthpiece of Bush but they would always give the pro-Bush propaganda.

So you get some little story about the West lied about this that and the other and I'm thinking "why the fuck does that matter?"  Of course they get shit wrong but that's not the big story.  It's like how Saddam Hussein was lying his ass off non-stop his entire political career but that's not what the Gulf War was about.  Both sides were lying but Bush was lying with a goal, starting a conflict.  I see that pattern here again in Ukraine.  Maybe the west lies a lot maybe they lie a little.  But those lies are really irrelevant to all this.  The Russian government wants to get shit from Ukraine and they have lied over and over and over again to get what they want.  When I see people try to justify based on this or that or the other premise of the day it just reminds me as the stupid fucks we have here in America who say that there were WMDs in Iraq but they were moved to Syria or clung to "evidence" like "mobile bioweapons factories".  Of course they're going to keep coming out with new propaganda!

But like I said that's the American-centric take.  You aren't just born with this outlook and I shouldn't go around assuming that Knit Tie should think this way just because he lived in England for a few months.  So yeah, upon reflection I was assuming a whole lot of shit and sorry I got pissed rather then thinking about why.

[Sergarr]

A prime example of that would be Russia Today's American channel. They're doing some great reporting on America's problem (I like Abby Martin for example). And they don't make stuff up. Their goal is not to make Americans enthusiast about Russia, is to make them as cynic as Russians.

Reaction against this propaganda is probably why I get so pissed off and aggressive towards Knit Tie.  As an American you are taught to always look back to the last government self serving propaganda.  Bush and WMDs, the many lies of Vietnam like Gulf of Tonkin, Iran-Contra, etc.  In typical American-centric fashion I assume that this would be the case but even more so in Russia.  So for me it's just about a pattern of deception.  By the time that Putin says that he is not going to annex Crimea while he's already actively annexing it I conclude that it's obvious that everything coming from Putin and Putin aligned press is propaganda.  (I say press too because in American politics Fox News wasn't a mouthpiece of Bush but they would always give the pro-Bush propaganda.

So you get some little story about the West lied about this that and the other and I'm thinking "why the fuck does that matter?"  Of course they get shit wrong but that's not the big story.  It's like how Saddam Hussein was lying his ass off non-stop his entire political career but that's not what the Gulf War was about.  Both sides were lying but Bush was lying with a goal, starting a conflict.  I see that pattern here again in Ukraine.  Maybe the west lies a lot maybe they lie a little.  But those lies are really irrelevant to all this.  The Russian government wants to get shit from Ukraine and they have lied over and over and over again to get what they want.  When I see people try to justify based on this or that or the other premise of the day it just reminds me as the stupid fucks we have here in America who say that there were WMDs in Iraq but they were moved to Syria or clung to "evidence" like "mobile bioweapons factories".  Of course they're going to keep coming out with new propaganda!

But like I said that's the American-centric take.  You aren't just born with this outlook and I shouldn't go around assuming that Knit Tie should think this way just because he lived in England for a few months.  So yeah, upon reflection I was assuming a whole lot of shit and sorry I got pissed rather then thinking about why.

The reason why this propaganda is working is because in 90s, propaganda from mostly our homegrown liberals told that the West is good, has always been good and never wished evil for anyone.

That's one of the reasons why the current propaganda is working. It's "anti-90s".

[Knit tie]

A prime example of that would be Russia Today's American channel. They're doing some great reporting on America's problem (I like Abby Martin for example). And they don't make stuff up. Their goal is not to make Americans enthusiast about Russia, is to make them as cynic as Russians.

Reaction against this propaganda is probably why I get so pissed off and aggressive towards Knit Tie.  As an American you are taught to always look back to the last government self serving propaganda.  Bush and WMDs, the many lies of Vietnam like Gulf of Tonkin, Iran-Contra, etc.  In typical American-centric fashion I assume that this would be the case but even more so in Russia.  So for me it's just about a pattern of deception.  By the time that Putin says that he is not going to annex Crimea while he's already actively annexing it I conclude that it's obvious that everything coming from Putin and Putin aligned press is propaganda.  (I say press too because in American politics Fox News wasn't a mouthpiece of Bush but they would always give the pro-Bush propaganda.

So you get some little story about the West lied about this that and the other and I'm thinking "why the fuck does that matter?"  Of course they get shit wrong but that's not the big story.  It's like how Saddam Hussein was lying his ass off non-stop his entire political career but that's not what the Gulf War was about.  Both sides were lying but Bush was lying with a goal, starting a conflict.  I see that pattern here again in Ukraine.  Maybe the west lies a lot maybe they lie a little.  But those lies are really irrelevant to all this.  The Russian government wants to get shit from Ukraine and they have lied over and over and over again to get what they want.  When I see people try to justify based on this or that or the other premise of the day it just reminds me as the stupid fucks we have here in America who say that there were WMDs in Iraq but they were moved to Syria or clung to "evidence" like "mobile bioweapons factories".  Of course they're going to keep coming out with new propaganda!

But like I said that's the American-centric take.  You aren't just born with this outlook and I shouldn't go around assuming that Knit Tie should think this way just because he lived in England for a few months.  So yeah, upon reflection I was assuming a whole lot of shit and sorry I got pissed rather then thinking about why.

So you just assumed I tried to spew the usual american "us is good, they is bad, look at all the bad they did" gibberish, and not just express my distaste at the Anglo-American high-nosed claims of moral superiorty?

I am sorry for being so confrontational as well, mainiac, but I have to say that being so caustic that people want to disagree with you based solely on your attitude does not help win arguements. I honestly didn't intend to defend Putin's actions, but after you called me stupid for the nth time I assumed a diametrical to yours position out of sheer spite. Sorry.