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[Scripten]

Thanks for clarifying, even if you answered a question asked to a different player :/

Oh crud. Sorry, I was just skimming the board real quick and missed that you had addressed DA specifically.

[notquitethere]

Deus

NQT, there's one thing I don't like about your case. Scripten, as you pointed out, was trying to get SBC lynched day one. When he failed to do that, SBC went on to get murdered on the first night. Isn't that a terribly stupid thing for Scripten to do as scum?

That's WIFOM and you know it. Scum doing things that you wouldn't think scum should do is what scum should do. Come on, you're better than this.

I'm going to have to vote NQT. I can't give an in depth analysis at the moment, but the short form is that his behaviour just seems off. [1]He was questioning Cheeetar's reasoning for voting on Scintillant until an hour before day's end, then voted for Scin over me because of the same reasoning he was questioning an hour before. [2] The flip flop on the vote and him declaring me to be town today make me think he was trying to set me up for the final mislynch, since leaving Scin alive would have had Scripten still defending him.

[3]NQT, what was your reason for investigating Cheeetar in the first night instead of one of the people who were acting suspiciously day one, like Crusader?

1. I was trying to press my town ally to make the best damn case he could make. I wanted to be confident he was playing at his best so as to maximise the chance of not mislynching. 2. I switched my votes because of a genuine doubt over you being scum, and although I wasn't 100% happy with a Scint lynch, it was the better of the two options. Changing votes is always the right thing to do if you have legitimate doubts. Being afraid of putting yourself in the firing line and keeping quiet is the worst thing to do. 3. Mostly, it was this game. I knew Cheetar was a formidable opponent if he was playing as scum. I had just replaced in, it was night time and I didn't personally have that much time. I had a read through the thread and although other people had found folk scummy, they were all people likely to be lynched by town anyhow. Much better to pick someone unsuspected but dangerous: best case, he would have been scum and then I could get him lynched; worst case and he's town (as happened), I could be sure of having a competent town ally. I thought about investigating Krusader but figured that so many people found him scummy he'd like as not be lynched without my investigation, whereas a scum-cheetar would almost certainly never be lynched. Scripten claims to have made a N1 pick based on his "gut"-- do you find that a more compelling reason?


Scripten

1.Yeah... that's a pretty flimsy reason. 2I investigated Scintillant because I had a gut town read on him and wanted to clear up a case of WIFOM for myself. I'll be pulling up quotes from where I defended his inno yesterday. Of course, since I expected you and your scumbuddy to kill me if I let on too much that I was the cop, I wasn't going to claim without a guilty.

Of course you'd pick an easy target for your N1 investigate. 3.Wouldn't do to have a non-confirmed townie for your result, would it?

1. Investigating the most competent and experienced player is a flimsy reason to investigate? Sorry what? I saw how Cheetar, as scum, won Wuba's last game; I didn't want him as a foe. 2. Talk about flimsy reasons! You had a 'gut' feeling. You expect people to buy that? 3. Completely ignoring the fact that the second person I got a town read on was still alive, but sure, go ahead and spread transparent lies.

RIGHT at the end of the day, to the point that there were only a few minutes left. (That is, less than an hour left for deliberations.) I'm going to pull this post right apart, because I did so before and had to edit out my post because the day had ended by the time I'd finished writing my response.

First, this:

Ah shoot, according to this we're almost at the end of the day. By my count there's currently a tie between Deus and Scintillant.

Okay, fine, we're breaking a tie and avoiding a no-lynch. That's null, maybe slightly pro-town. Causing a no-lynch is scummy, but avoiding one isn't particularly indicative, especially if it's a mislynch that puts us into LyLo.

So you admit my actions weren't scummy. That's good, because they weren't.

I trust Cheeetah more than I do Scripten at this stage.

What? This isn't the town NQT I know at all! NQT does not make snap decisions on lynches based on trusting other players, even if he knows they are town. He votes according to his own scumhunting methods, which are NOT consistent with the vote that follows.

I knew Cheetar was town, and my different methods were given mixed indications for Deus/Scintillant (no mystery, now, as it turns out they're both town).

I hope this isn't some horrible mistake.

And then we get this suspicious little gem. It's almost as if he KNOWS he's lynching town and wants to make it look sanitary for the rest of us. This was precisely the scummy behavior that made my read on NQT shift greatly so that I investigated him last night and got a guilty. When I first posted yesterday in response to this post here, I was hoping that the day still had a little time left so I could get some last words in before night came, in case I died. Funnily enough, in my PM to TDS, I actually mentioned that I was worried about being night killed, since I figured my reaction to NQT's post made my role almost a certainty to scum. Luckily they didn't notice, which I hope to have come back around to bite them in the rear.

I often air last minute worries and um and ah when I'm breaking a tie. See this game for instance, where I break a tie and lynch scum but with extreme reticence.

Alright, so here's that look at the NQT slot I promised. We'll start with RangerCado, which shouldn't be too hard considering his lack of content.

I obviously can't speak for Ranger's play but I can respond to your accusations about me:

So here's some classic NQT analysis. (It's almost a parody, it's so classic, in fact.) "Scumreads" Scintillant, a townie I knew was innocent, and tries to set up a mislynch with passive pushes that are meant to lead town. He has barely a sentence on Masked_Krusader, who is his scumbuddy. Why should he have more? He doesn't want to bring him into the limelight. Then we have this nugget of gold. NQT claims that he sees newbie players mislynched all the time, and then brings it up the same day he mislynches Scintillant with blatant scummery. Talk about audacity, eh?

This is nonsense. My analysis was solid, some of the best I've done. I'm pretty sure my conclusions about the voting patterns will draw out, though can't say for certain until we lynch you and your scumbuddy (Dwarf is it?). And further, do you deny that newbie players mislynch one another all the time? Hasn't this very fact been born out so far this game?

Here's where things get even more interesting. NQT bring up some scummy stuff that Deus Asmoth has done and starts a wagon that he doesn't want to end the day on. Considering DA's behavior doesn't really change throughout the day, this is plenty suspicious. Then he's busy for a while so we don't see much of him.  He comes back to continue to subtly manipulate other players' reads on Scintillant while accusing him of doing the same thing, to push Deus Asmoth just a little more with a blatant scumread, and to "find it interesting" that I'm "reading so much" into his posts. It's like he's implying that I'm scum for analyzing his behavior; that is, scumhunting is scummy to NQT this game. He's too busy to play for a little bit. Eh okay.

This is ironic. I found your baseless insinuations scummy. Over-reading isn't scumhunting. And you say I was subtly manipulating, but you can't say who was supposed to have been taken in by this.

Then he finally shows up at the VERY end of the day, scumreading Deus Asmoth, finds issue with Cheeetar's reason for voting Scintillant(Apparently not enough of an issue to keep him from voting him!), soft-defends Scintillant for doing newbie things(Again, not enough of an issue so as to avoid mislynching him!), apparently scumreads me for scumhunting him and Deus Asmoth(You know, the wagon he started!), and then apparently scumreads 4maskwolf. Then there's this lovely little nugget which I have already dug through earlier on.

Again this is nonsense. Changing your mind as you gain new insights is not scummy; whereas sitting on the same case all day like you did is.




Dorsidwarf

NQT seems to have suddenly hopped off his metanalysis high horse, and justified himself via "Gut feeling", which I don't feel matches any other play of his I've ever, ever, ever seen.

Sorry where did I mention anything about gut feeling? Back up your bullshit please.

The Scripten + 4mask scenario makes no sense either. Why turn on his buddy suddenly? They could probbably have lynched NQT pretty easy if they really were both scum.

This is a bit WIFOMY. Scum often bus one another to throw up smokescreens.

As a result, I'm voting NQT as the scum for playing atypically, hammily apologising as he hammers in on a town minutes before day end, and ultimately due to analysis of the situation and possible situations leaving him being lying scum as the only reasonable interpretation.

Please explain how I was playing atypically? The analysis was muddied so I favoured the pick from someone I knew wasn't scum. It was a bad idea, as it happened, but I'm not immune to them. Every game I make some kind of mistake or other. I always apologise when there's a danger of mislynching (see my response to Scripten for a link to another game where a similar situation occurred). I think either you're scum or you're underestimating how dedicated experienced players like Scripten and 4mask are to distancing tactics.

[Deus Asmoth]

Scripten, why did you investigate NQT last night anyway? The last minute vote change was suspicious, but you were certain I was scum for the majority of day 2. Why not check if you were right?

[Dorsidwarf]

NQT
Firstly, upon reading back, it turns out you were referring to cheetar, your claimed inspection, when you said you trusted " the opinion of my fellow town." My apologies for misinterpreting that,  and badly. I might also have gotten you mixed up slightly with Scripten's reference to gut feeling.

In response to "You have no idea how good experienced players are at distancing the self as scum": I think that basically throwing away an easy, easy win with justifiable votes against a reactive cop claim that 4mask was previously voting, siding with their 'strongest scumread' against their public townread While at LyLo?

Can you explain why you think an insane, dangerous, pointless, unnecessary gambit like that accurately represents the actions of two (three, counting their IC) "experienced" scum players?

Additionally, in your last sentence you manage to really outdo yourself by insinuating that Scripten, 4mask and me are somehow scum all at once? Saying that I'm scum because I don't think wilfully sabotaging their own easily won game is likely? Can you please clarify that statement, in case I've misunderstood?

[Scripten]

NQT

I'm going to have to vote NQT. I can't give an in depth analysis at the moment, but the short form is that his behaviour just seems off. [1]He was questioning Cheeetar's reasoning for voting on Scintillant until an hour before day's end, then voted for Scin over me because of the same reasoning he was questioning an hour before. [2] The flip flop on the vote and him declaring me to be town today make me think he was trying to set me up for the final mislynch, since leaving Scin alive would have had Scripten still defending him.

[3]NQT, what was your reason for investigating Cheeetar in the first night instead of one of the people who were acting suspiciously day one, like Crusader?

1. I was trying to press my town ally to make the best damn case he could make. I wanted to be confident he was playing at his best so as to maximise the chance of not mislynching.

This is hilarious bad. I realize our newbie players may not be quite as entertained as I am, but yeah... Basically, NQT is saying that he was foregoing scumhunting to focus on confirmed town. Why? To make sure that this player was scumhunting well.

But he claims to have investigated Cheeetar due to Cheeetar's experience. Wat?

If Cheeetar was so experienced, then why did you see the need to coach him, NQT?

2. I switched my votes because of a genuine doubt over you being scum, and although I wasn't 100% happy with a Scint lynch, it was the better of the two options. Changing votes is always the right thing to do if you have legitimate doubts. Being afraid of putting yourself in the firing line and keeping quiet is the worst thing to do.

Doubts you apparently didn't decide to air until... actually, you never aired these doubts.

Your last post before the series in which you mislynched Scintillant. That doesn't look like doubt to me. In fact, right before you vote Scintillant, you wrote this post here. Can you show me the doubt you claim you had? Because I'm seeing less doubt here than in my own play, and I still found Deus Asmoth the best place for my vote! Thankfully, you showed that I was wrong to be voting him -and- outed your entire team. I consider that a pretty awesome situation.

3. Mostly, it was this game. I knew Cheetar was a formidable opponent if he was playing as scum. I had just replaced in, it was night time and I didn't personally have that much time.

So... you investigated a player not on their actions in this game but on shaky metagame analysis? The game you're posting was a chaotic role mania game where the majority of the gameplay was happening off-screen! How in the world can you consider that good, let alone better, justification?

I had a read through the thread and although other people had found folk scummy, they were all people likely to be lynched by town anyhow. Much better to pick someone unsuspected but dangerous: best case, he would have been scum and then I could get him lynched; worst case and he's town (as happened), I could be sure of having a competent town ally. I thought about investigating Krusader but figured that so many people found him scummy he'd like as not be lynched without my investigation, whereas a scum-cheetar would almost certainly never be lynched. Scripten claims to have made a N1 pick based on his "gut"-- do you find that a more compelling reason?

Oooh, so this time you had time to read through the thread? I thought you just said that there wasn't much time so you had to rely on metagame analysis?

It's like you're just building a web of your own lies that you can't even keep consistent from sentence to sentence or something.

1. Investigating the most competent and experienced player is a flimsy reason to investigate? Sorry what? I saw how Cheetar, as scum, won Wuba's last game; I didn't want him as a foe. 2. Talk about flimsy reasons! You had a 'gut' feeling. You expect people to buy that? 3. Completely ignoring the fact that the second person I got a town read on was still alive, but sure, go ahead and spread transparent lies.

Again, totally different game, with a totally different gamestate. You're literally just appealing to your accomplishment as a veteran mafia player here, by saying that your supposed gut read is more valid than my gut read. Hypocrite.

By the way, you've ignored the elephant in the room. If you were going by experience and likelihood to be lynched, why didn't you investigate me on Night 2? Sure, I'm not an IC, but if you had been following the game, you would have seen references to my experience and the way in which other players were reacting to it. The closest I ever came to being lynched was when Dorsidwarf accused me and Scintillant of being scumbuddies, which was invalidated by Scint's town flip. And it's not like you weren't pretending to be suspicious of me.

So please, elucidate us.

So you admit my actions weren't scummy. That's good, because they weren't.

I said that avoiding a no-lynch was a null action, not that your actions weren't scummy as all hell. They totally were, especially for a player that purports to play from such a high-minded logical stance. What you're selling here is that town!NQT came into the game at the very end of the day, voted a player with no wagon on them, then came back mere minutes before day's end to purportedly break a tie, voting for a player because you had a "trusted town read" that you apparently didn't find competent enough to play without your "coaching" earlier in the day. That just doesn't work.

I knew Cheetar was town, and my different methods were given mixed indications for Deus/Scintillant (no mystery, now, as it turns out they're both town).

Yeah... the only difference between Scintillant and Deus Asmoth you knew about was that you thought you could push me into lynching DA, but not Scintillant. Your actions were blatant, sir. Nobody's fooled.

I often air last minute worries and um and ah when I'm breaking a tie. See this game for instance, where I break a tie and lynch scum but with extreme reticence.

You mean the game in which you were a newbie and were deferring to the two ICs?

Because that's totally relevant to your play now.

(In case anyone is wondering, that is massive sarcasm.)

This is nonsense. My analysis was solid, some of the best I've done. I'm pretty sure my conclusions about the voting patterns will draw out, though can't say for certain until we lynch you and your scumbuddy (Dwarf is it?).

*BZZZT* I'm sorry, that's not the answer we're looking for.

Thank you for your qualitative opinion on your own play. Johnny, tell him what's he's won!

Spoiler: "A speedy drop and a sudden stop!" (click to show/hide)

And further, do you deny that newbie players mislynch one another all the time? Hasn't this very fact been born out so far this game?

Since when are you a newbie?

This is ironic. I found your baseless insinuations scummy. Over-reading isn't scumhunting. And you say I was subtly manipulating, but you can't say who was supposed to have been taken in by this.

Tsk tsk. Over-reading, is it? Here, let me pull up a handy dandy quote (I like having evidence for my claims, have you noticed?) and we can let our fellows make their own conclusions:

NQT:

Scintillant offers a number of reasons to vote Shamrock and backs them up in reference to actual posts. This case is formed in reaction to Scripten's questioning, and the vote on Shamrock is buried in the response rather than directed at their target. A great way to to get inexperienced players mislynched is to not directly question them when you're trying to lynch them.

What exactly are you implying here? Are you implying that I was trying to get Comrade mislynched? You seem to be saying at first that my case against Comrade was good, but then go into observations about it and describe a possible scumtell. How do those three things relate?

Poor Scintillant must have been very scummy to you, NQT. I mean, he thought you were making implications and being subtly manipulative. Tell me, what did that get him?

Oh right. You mislynched him.

Oh, and as for who was supposed to be taken in by your implications, I'm pretty sure scum can't lynch town without at least one townie joining them on a wagon. It's almost as if you pushed that Scintillant was scummy and didn't hop on the wagon until late in the day, when it had already formed without your help, and guaranteed the mislynch of a most inconvenient player. Or maybe that's exactly what happened.

Again this is nonsense. Changing your mind as you gain new insights is not scummy; whereas sitting on the same case all day like you did is.

Ah, yes, because nailing in a mislynch mere minutes before the end of the day isn't scummy, silly me! How silly I am to forget that actually scumhunting instead of being a manipulative, underhanded scummer is absolutely the worst way to play as town!

What would we do without your masterful insight, NQT?

Deus Asmoth

Scripten, why did you investigate NQT last night anyway? The last minute vote change was suspicious, but you were certain I was scum for the majority of day 2. Why not check if you were right?

This is pertinent. I was not sure that you were scum by day's end, though, until NQT showed up with his scummy move onto the Scint wagon, I didn't have any better options for a lynch. Seeing NQT, an experienced player, do something so blatant made me massively suspicious. Sadly, the post I wrote with regard to that was struck from the record, but I still have my investigative result on him. To be totally honest, NQT's lynch choice was not terrible scum play, considering he probably thought Cheeetar was the cop, due to the slightly quieter way he was playing. If he'd realized I was the cop, he definitely would not have lynched the guy I was defending all day in such an audacious and scum-sided manner.

[Deus Asmoth]

NQT, your play today seems very reactive. You're answering questions put to you, but you don't really seem to be doing much to convince the town Scripten deserves a lynch. You want the town to bring their A game, but you don't seem to be doing much to help.

Scripten, why are you acting so agitated? NQT has the most votes on him, but I just get the feeling that you're worried about something.

[Scripten]

Scripten, why are you acting so agitated? NQT has the most votes on him, but I just get the feeling that you're worried about something.

I tend to play this way in general. It's how I garner a lot of information from other players.

There's also the fact that I'd really like town to win the game. Scum still have two days to work, while I have the rest of today before I am guaranteed to die. Outed cops have a pretty short lifespan, you see. I'm just trying to be as thorough as I possibly can while I have the chance.

[Deus Asmoth]

To clarify, Scripten is answering NQT's points in his own posts, but he also seems to be trying to make the points he's answering seem ridiculous, as though he doesn't want other people considering them.

[Scripten]

To clarify, Scripten is answering NQT's points in his own posts, but he also seems to be trying to make the points he's answering seem ridiculous, as though he doesn't want other people considering them.

The majority of his points are ridiculous. You're free to make your own conclusions from his posts, as well. Just because I say something doesn't mean that the rest of the town can't also do their own independent scumhunting. Posts are permanent, after all.

[TheDarkStar]

No one has posted in the last 24 hours, but I'm busy IRL and am extending this game until at least tomorrow.

Starting now, the day ends if the votecount doesn't change in 24 hours or people vote to shorten.

[Scripten]

Considering 4mask and NQT have given up posting, I'm pretty sure the scumteam is caught.

[notquitethere]

Pfp.

Sorry guys, I'm really busy and won't be in front of a computer until Sunday. As such, extend.

Town are forever losing these games and I'd like it not to happen again-- I really counsel the two of you on my side to look back at Scripten's cases: you'll see there's no way he's a cop. You're making a terrible mistake here. Sorry I don't have time to address outstanding questions.

[Deus Asmoth]

Scripten, Dorsi hasn't been posting much either. Couldn't he just be bussing NQT? (Though I realise that this is unlikely considering there's only one vote in the difference at the moment)

[Scripten]

Pfp.

Sorry guys, I'm really busy and won't be in front of a computer until Sunday. As such, extend.

Town are forever losing these games and I'd like it not to happen again-- I really counsel the two of you on my side to look back at Scripten's cases: you'll see there's no way he's a cop. You're making a terrible mistake here. Sorry I don't have time to address outstanding questions.

Appeal to emotion. Classic scum strategy.

Tell me what you think of 4maskwolf this game?

Scripten, Dorsi hasn't been posting much either. Couldn't he just be bussing NQT? (Though I realise that this is unlikely considering there's only one vote in the difference at the moment)

This is a possibility, true. I consider it a little less unlikely due to the way 4maskwolf and Dorsi have been playing all game. Dorsi's play reads very town to me, while our venerable Super Mask Bros. have pretty cautious, scum-consistent play. Of course, if you do see something, feel free to bring it up. Even if you're wrong, being pro-information is being pro-town.

[Dorsidwarf]

Hey guys! Sorry for not being so active. Mafias a brain drainer, and I had a few important tests.
The game seems to have stagnated, in fact. There's very little questioning and a lot of statements, so to get the ball rolling... (and information flowing)

4maskwolf
How, in a maximum of two sentences, would you describe your reasoning for jumping off your scumpick and onto your town pick as soon as they accuse each other of mutual cop-faking?

Because your posts on the matter have been exceedingly wordy, and I'm interested to know whether you actually have a defining reason, or whether you've just pulled your arguments out of hot air.

Deus Asmoth
As someone vouched for by NotQuiteThere, how do you feel about his impending lynch? Do you feel that you have to work extra-hard over this day to make up for being vouched by a suspicious/scum player? The next?