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[notquitethere]

Tiruin

NQT, can extensions be sent via PMs and on conditional terms?

That'd be fine.

[Scripten]

If I were changelinged (as opposed to power stolen or power swapped) I would definitely claim that I had been.  I see changeling as an extremely useful power for town and too much of a crapshoot for scum, and in a game where we cannot be targeted directly easily it wouldn't hurt to have a claimed changeling/claimed changeling target.

On the other hand, the whole changeling combo move seems like kind of a jerk move on the part of people, because it completely neutralizes someone else for most of the game, particularly if done a certain way (dense-mercenary-unable to vote-changeling or dense-mercenary-afflicted-changeling).  Particularly in a setup where it is hard to directly target the scum, it seems kind of mean to just netralize someone completely with your role without knowing if they are town or scum.

Except, if you've been changeling'd, you target a specific player. As soon as that person claims, you know exactly who you hit. In the case of scum players using changeling, a claim would be a confirmation of your mask color, but only to the mafia.. I can't imagine that you thought this through that far without coming to such a conclusion. The only reason I can imagine for pushing a claim like that would be to do exactly what I just described. That is, you plan to attack a player, then use this to convince them to claim.

4maskwolf, can you explain how changeling is a crapshoot for scum, taking the above reasoning into account?

Because the scumteam player with changeling would have no control over what powers they got: they could end up stealing a vigilante's role when another member has a kill, or they could end up with a role that is powerful for town but useless for scum.  In my opinion, it is far more likely for a changeling to be town than scum, simply because the scum don't get as much out of it.  Frankly, though, I'd be shocked if there was a changeling at all this game, due to the randomness of the masquerade element.  It makes town changelings much harder to aim and scum changelings even less useful to scum.

Except that, as you said, changeling can be used to effectively eliminate a player's ability to use powers. In a way, it's actually more useful than a kill, since you have a chance of "killing" a cop or doctor role, while also giving the mafia that same power role. Hell, no matter who you target, you're guaranteed to get *something*. Nobody in their right mind would set themselves up with flaws and terrible powers on the off chance they get changeling'd by scum.

How is changeling useful to a town player? At best, I can see it used to transfer a power role from a player about to be lynched to another confirmed townie. But, as with most of the town-sided powers, it relies on knowing your target is town.

[TolyK]

Tiruin.
Oh, I see omgus. Alright, lets look at it this way.
Do you normally claim your role in d1 in a "normal" mafia game? I'm guessing not.
Thus, it isn't the first thing you would do - in fact, you would normally refrain from revealing anything about your role. Thus, claiming something the first day (even though it's safer than usual) is more likely to be a more or less thought-out (or calculated) decision. Lets look at a similar problem.

You don't normally jump off of buildings with no great, do you? But what if someone guaranteed (and you believe them) that there's something at the bottom that will slow your fall at the end safely. Is out a given that you will jump off anyways? No, obviously, you'd still weigh the pros and cons, but in the end do it because it's fun.

THAT was my point. It's not that you lose much by claiming info in this case, but it's the fact that you did that shows you thought it out, and calculated decisions of this sort tickle my scumsense (in that scum more often know more about the game status than any town player and thus can calculate using the better data).

Why the outburst, though? And I never said you were town, either, nor that you said you did. Phrasing was meant as "of you were town, it made less sense".

Pfp

Hoo boy, seeing something to be tagged when there is nothing to be tagged; your note of OMGUS is verified by my suspicion on your word of town :v Where is it an OMGUS, if you didn't even vote beforehand?
^{I mean seriously. If you're going to use terms that have a background of being accusatory, USE THEM BLOODY RIGHT :I.}

Did I claim my role? I claimed my mask. I guess you guess. :v
Thus, whatever logical conclusion you follow in that paragraph goes on an assumption that had no foundation at all.

...The orange part did not make sense. Great?
...
Yeah, that whole paragraph lost me. That was analogy right?

The next paragraph just tells me 'I did this because I thought it out.'
...K. And? How does that connect to your next idea of scum knowing more? Rather, how does it work as a scum-ping?

Also what outburst? I'm poking your wording in particular. Your exact wording in particular, to specify. Somehow you've a thing with words and their feelings. Why use the term 'outburst'?
[/quote]
Alright, point by point.
I didn't leave a vote, but I said that you seemed scummy. Sorry for misusing terminology.
You claimed a part of your role, that is, your mask. So it does.

It was an analogy, yes. And that was a typo, I meant "You don't normally jump off of buildings with no gear, do you?".
The mere fact that you decide to give info the first day was suspicious to me because it seemed overly planned.

Same thing goes with 4mask's claim - it seemed to preemptive. As in, to use later in argument for towny-ness.

And "outburst" wasn't the correct term, I agree.

[4maskwolf]

Except that, as you said, changeling can be used to effectively eliminate a player's ability to use powers. In a way, it's actually more useful than a kill, since you have a chance of "killing" a cop or doctor role, while also giving the mafia that same power role. Hell, no matter who you target, you're guaranteed to get *something*. Nobody in their right mind would set themselves up with flaws and terrible powers on the off chance they get changeling'd by scum.

How is changeling useful to a town player? At best, I can see it used to transfer a power role from a player about to be lynched to another confirmed townie. But, as with most of the town-sided powers, it relies on knowing your target is town.

Changeling is useful if you have a good idea of who the scum are, because it can be used to neutralize a scum player.  Due to the masquerade aspect, however, it is basically worthless in this approach.  Which is why I say I doubt there is a changeling in this game.

yes, you are guaranteed to get *something*.  That something could also be less useful to the scum then a well-bought role could have been.  That's the reason I doubt that the scum are running it.

[Scripten]

Except that, as you said, changeling can be used to effectively eliminate a player's ability to use powers. In a way, it's actually more useful than a kill, since you have a chance of "killing" a cop or doctor role, while also giving the mafia that same power role. Hell, no matter who you target, you're guaranteed to get *something*. Nobody in their right mind would set themselves up with flaws and terrible powers on the off chance they get changeling'd by scum.

How is changeling useful to a town player? At best, I can see it used to transfer a power role from a player about to be lynched to another confirmed townie. But, as with most of the town-sided powers, it relies on knowing your target is town.

Changeling is useful if you have a good idea of who the scum are, because it can be used to neutralize a scum player.  Due to the masquerade aspect, however, it is basically worthless in this approach.  Which is why I say I doubt there is a changeling in this game.

yes, you are guaranteed to get *something*.  That something could also be less useful to the scum then a well-bought role could have been.  That's the reason I doubt that the scum are running it.

I don't. It's an easy way to neuter town, and you're not risking points if you take a bunch of flaws and use changeling on day one. It's basically a free power that, at best, can eliminate a powerful town role and, at worst, eliminates a slightly powerful town role. It's a free night kill-equivalent that doesn't use up the mafia's single allowed night-kill. I'm pretty sure you know that quite well.

Also, you're not -just- getting a set of powers. You're getting a set of powers, effectively "killing" a power role and/or removing a townsperson's ability to vote, and all of that for free, if you take the right flaws.

[4maskwolf]

Except that, as you said, changeling can be used to effectively eliminate a player's ability to use powers. In a way, it's actually more useful than a kill, since you have a chance of "killing" a cop or doctor role, while also giving the mafia that same power role. Hell, no matter who you target, you're guaranteed to get *something*. Nobody in their right mind would set themselves up with flaws and terrible powers on the off chance they get changeling'd by scum.

How is changeling useful to a town player? At best, I can see it used to transfer a power role from a player about to be lynched to another confirmed townie. But, as with most of the town-sided powers, it relies on knowing your target is town.

Changeling is useful if you have a good idea of who the scum are, because it can be used to neutralize a scum player.  Due to the masquerade aspect, however, it is basically worthless in this approach.  Which is why I say I doubt there is a changeling in this game.

yes, you are guaranteed to get *something*.  That something could also be less useful to the scum then a well-bought role could have been.  That's the reason I doubt that the scum are running it.

I don't. It's an easy way to neuter town, and you're not risking points if you take a bunch of flaws and use changeling on day one. It's basically a free power that, at best, can eliminate a powerful town role and, at worst, eliminates a slightly powerful town role. It's a free night kill-equivalent that doesn't use up the mafia's single allowed night-kill. I'm pretty sure you know that quite well.

Also, you're not -just- getting a set of powers. You're getting a set of powers, effectively "killing" a power role and/or removing a townsperson's ability to vote, and all of that for free, if you take the right flaws.

I can see where you're coming from, even if I don't entirely agree with you.  Perhaps I was too quick to write it off as a scum power, but I don't think it would be a high-priority choice either.  I put in some thought about being both scum and town and, before I left (which happened before the game started) I sent in roles to give me if I was scum and if I was town (they were different roles).  I never really considered changeling as scum: perhaps I will consider it the next time one of these is run (and I hope another one is run, I love this setup, even though it is fairly townsided).

You, however, seem to have put a lot of thought into how to use changeling as scum, Scripten.

Varee: Why such a specific question?  And why directed at me, specifically?  Were you maskfishing after messing with someone's role?

[ToonyMan]

@4maskwolf:

Why did you pick nonvoter? Do you realize how harmful that could be if you don't buy it off?

Yep.  That's why I'm running self-targeted cleanse.  Unfortunately, it removed my magnetic flaw instead of my unable-to-vote flaw, but I should be able to vote tomorrow if nobody maskswaps me (I'm going to target myself again).

You took magnetic flaw as well? How many points are we building up here? I do not like the amount of power you're gathering.

Think about it, if you're town then woo great, but then mafia are going to want to find out who you are and steal your shit through swapping. There's a level of discretion involved here, and by choosing nonvoter you basically forced yourself to reveal this. If you're mafia you don't even necessarily have to self-cleanse yourself, one of your buddies could have done it today.

Let us not forget two very important things the MOD mentioned:

If anyone was going to disrupt the Doge's party, they'd choose three assailants as that number is most auspicious.
[...]
They retain their chat so long as they're all alive.

There are three mafia. They have a group chat and always will until the game is over. They can easily plan anything together.

You chose 'Unable to vote'. Was the extra two points really worth losing your largest weapon as town, 4maskwolf?

Yes, see above.  I don't lose it for long, unless I get cursed or mask-swapped.

Have a plan to stop that from happening?

[4maskwolf]

@4maskwolf:

Why did you pick nonvoter? Do you realize how harmful that could be if you don't buy it off?

Yep.  That's why I'm running self-targeted cleanse.  Unfortunately, it removed my magnetic flaw instead of my unable-to-vote flaw, but I should be able to vote tomorrow if nobody maskswaps me (I'm going to target myself again).

You took magnetic flaw as well? How many points are we building up here? I do not like the amount of power you're gathering.

Think about it, if you're town then woo great, but then mafia are going to want to find out who you are and steal your shit through swapping. There's a level of discretion involved here, and by choosing nonvoter you basically forced yourself to reveal this. If you're mafia you don't even necessarily have to self-cleanse yourself, one of your buddies could have done it today.

Fish fish fish, I'm not going to tell you how many points I had.  But it has to be nine or ten, since I took two -2 flaws and the maximum flaw count is -5.  And good for you?  I like having powerful roles.

I suppose they can try, but I'm not claiming my mask, am I?  That gives me a level of immunity to targeted attacks, specifically those targeted on me as a person.

They could have, sure, but I'm not sure how that makes me scum.

Also, I'd like to note that I chose my role before I received my team and was out of town until Friday afternoon with no way to access the forums.  So how could I have planned on my scumbuddies having cleanse exactly?

You chose 'Unable to vote'. Was the extra two points really worth losing your largest weapon as town, 4maskwolf?

Yes, see above.  I don't lose it for long, unless I get cursed or mask-swapped.

Have a plan to stop that from happening?

Sending in my action for tomorrow early and the anonymity of masks, mostly.  If I get mask-swapped, oh well, I'll just figure out my new mask.  I'm pretty flexible in my plans, to be honest, so I can adapt to things as they come up.

[flabort]

I don't like the massive tie we're building up. If it's still tied by the time the lynch comes, and that's pretty soon, it's going to be a no lynch. Which only helps scum. Because anonymity and roleflips. Ugh, that particular bit about lynches always bugged me, I kinda wish that a no lynch would be acceptable.

4mask has the right idea of queuing up actions early. I myself am doing that, too.

4mask, scripten What are your opinions on the Innate modifier? It mentions that the affected power cannot be changeling'd, so if there IS a changeling in this game, would either of you have made your powers innate?

[flabort]

I forgot to say this:
I need to use my vote, but I'm not certain of anything yet, so I'm going to flip a coin to see if I vote for someone who DOESN'T have a vote on them yet, or someone who DOES. Then I'm going to roll an appropriately-sided die.

Spoiler: table of possibilities (click to show/hide)

Code: (HEADS) [Select]

1. Reverie
2. Tiruin
3. Toaster
4. Toonyman
5. Silthuri
6. Jiokuy

Code: (TAILS) [Select]

1.Deathsword
2.Varee
3.4maskwolf
4.Scripten
5.TolyK

[TolyK]

You what? You need to use your vote?

Also of note. 4maskwolf. Just got to me. XD

[Scripten]

I can see where you're coming from, even if I don't entirely agree with you.  Perhaps I was too quick to write it off as a scum power, but I don't think it would be a high-priority choice either.  I put in some thought about being both scum and town and, before I left (which happened before the game started) I sent in roles to give me if I was scum and if I was town (they were different roles).  I never really considered changeling as scum: perhaps I will consider it the next time one of these is run (and I hope another one is run, I love this setup, even though it is fairly townsided).

You, however, seem to have put a lot of thought into how to use changeling as scum, Scripten.

Varee: Why such a specific question?  And why directed at me, specifically?  Were you maskfishing after messing with someone's role?

Unvote

Or you could consider the prospect of scum changelings in this game and stop trying to write it off to cover the scumbuddy of yours who's used it today. Since you weren't able to vote earlier, I know it wasn't you. Perhaps it was Varee, since he brought it up. He may just be a poor town player, but you two were a little obvious here and here. That's some excellent maskfishing there, by the way. Don't you think it's a little useless now, though? After all, you and your scumbuddies know what powers I have now and that I can't buy any more this game.

Town Players: Oh, and just for a little insurance, here's a mostly foolproof strategy for rooting out the scum. If anyone has points enough for gossip, try using it on Varee or another scummy player (besides 4maskwolf, since he cannot have used the changeling power and the unable-to-vote flaw). One of them has virtuous, hardcore, and resurrection. They won't show up when gossiped about, so trying a fake report on them should get a read. Also, since the scum know it now, I got an ultramarine mask and was targeted by a scum changeling. I'm currently set up with dense, one-shot, and lover(Toaster). Right now, I'm basically a liability to the town if I don't reveal everything I know. If Toaster goes, I go. I'm also pretty sure that I'm set to be stabbed, unless Toaster is scum, in which case it doesn't really matter.

If I think of anything else to add, I'll try to get it in before my inevitable demise.

Flabort: I wish, for the sake of myself, that I had taken it. I didn't really have enough points and I figured my powers would be weak enough that being changeling'd wouldn't be TOO good for the scumteam. Hopefully, I was right.

4maskwolf

[TolyK]

Oh wow. Alright, uh. How many points do you have, Scripten? 0?

[Scripten]

Yeah. Here's a sheet of my points usage. If anyone with scan wants to confirm, go ahead, but it's a moot point now.

5 : Starting Points
+1 : Hardcore
-1 : Virtuous
-5 : Resurrection

I was changeling'd with the following (Keep in mind that flaws given after creation don't give you points):

0(+2) : Lover(Toaster)
0(+2) : One-Shot
0(+1) : Dense

Since I've got dense, I can't gain xp, so I'm stuck until death or through help of another player, which I feel would be a waste of a power at this point. However, look at the points here. That gives the person who originally bought these traits an extra five points. They only spent four on changeling, so that means they have my powers plus an extra point with which to buy something else.

[ToonyMan]

Shit, looks like scum have made their first move already.