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[LARD]

Alright PTDfun I don't know how much experience you have (please tell me) or what your game is.  But I thought your predecessor was scum and as follows, you are.

Seriously though, if you could do a few things on this list, that would be great.
1. Tell us your previous mafia experience. I'm pretty new around here, so if you are a regular, I apologize.
2. Read the last few pages thoroughly (if not the whole game) and tell us your suspect list.
3. Start attacking someone.
4. Ask for advice from the IC's
5. Ask for updates on the game.
6. Read people's read lists. For me this is what I use to get the gist of a game.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be an IC, but I want a good idea of you before I put my vote back where it was.
Hope to hear from you!

[Jack A T]

Kansa: Sad to see you go.  You gave it a good try, though, and it is good to see that you are still interested in Mafia.  I hope to see you around here again soon.
PTDfun: Welcome to the game!  After you read through the thread, please give your thoughts on the game so far, including reads of your fellow players.  In addition, would you mind summarizing your previous Mafia experience, if any?

1. You only said I was scum now; your previous reason for voting was essentially a pressure vote where you asked me questions and reads. Why do you suddenly think I am scum now?

TheDarkStar:To answer your question...

I forgot to put an explicit statement of my read on you in.  I shall correct that now: scum lean.  My reasons are in my reads post.

What is it about bold red text followed by "TheDarkStar appears to be trying to give the impression of being here, but without actually saying anything of substance" that makes you only think "pressure vote"?

     -I suspected buddying between borno and Ranger because Ranger was the only one defending borno for a while.

Huh?  Can you give any example of this?  The only defense of borno by RangerCado I can find is the one regarding that baseless accusation about RVS question writing style, and Ranger certainly wasn't alone in pointing out how poor that accusation was.  After the tn5421 mess, Cado began his attack on borno, which clearly isn't a defense of borno.

Furthermore, did you have any reasons to lean towards borno being scum aside from RangerCado's actions?

Jack and Tiruin As the IC's I would like to see you two go head to head because it would be instructive and interesting. If one of you is scum then I would like to know sooner rather than later because later you will be rallying the town to attack itself because that's what good scum does.

LARD: You do realize that you can't just tell two people to attack each other, right?

If that is not an option, then at least answer this: What possible motives are there for killing tn5421 other than avoiding being blocked?

A few posts back, in a spoiler addressed to TheDarkStar (spoilers being a useful way to organize posts.  Do read spoilers not addressed to you.  It's worthwhile.), I listed a few of the many, many possibilities.

Perhaps because he was thought by several players to be town.  Perhaps to cause chaos.  Perhaps because he would be a difficult target to lynch and too risky to want anywhere near LYLO.  I have little reason to lean strongly towards any one of those theories, or any other theory, at this time.

There are a lot of possibilities, and those are just a start.

6. No change, except for a bit more suspicious of you [TDS]. I don't use FoS, but if I did, you would have mine.
[...]
Also darkstar, I am very close to voting for you, so keep that in mind. It is a little threat, but I am still going after Kansa.

Why?  What was it about TheDarkStar's actions after you posted your reads that made you more suspicious of him?  About how strongly do you suspect him compared to Kansa/PTDfun?

One more question to you, LARD: Did Kansa's replacement request have any effect on your read of him?  If so, what?

Was it a bandwagon vote to avoid suspicion?

RangerCado: I notice I missed this reaction test.  The answer is no.  Considering you didn't call me out for failing to answer this, I assume you didn't care much about this question?
MyOwnWorstEnemy: You're fine.  I think prod demands themselves are often enough to get quiet players to speak, when said players are kind of watching the thread.

[Silthuri]

Votecount:

• LARD:
• TheDarkStar: Jack A T (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado: TheDarkStar (1)
• PTDfun:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: PTDfun, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin, LARD

Day two will end Monday at 10 pm EST.

Votes to extend: [0/3]
Votes to shorten: [0/4]

[TheDarkStar]

1. You only said I was scum now; your previous reason for voting was essentially a pressure vote where you asked me questions and reads. Why do you suddenly think I am scum now?

TheDarkStar:To answer your question...

I forgot to put an explicit statement of my read on you in.  I shall correct that now: scum lean.  My reasons are in my reads post.

What is it about bold red text followed by "TheDarkStar appears to be trying to give the impression of being here, but without actually saying anything of substance" that makes you only think "pressure vote"?

     -I suspected buddying between borno and Ranger because Ranger was the only one defending borno for a while.

Huh?  Can you give any example of this?  The only defense of borno by RangerCado I can find is the one regarding that baseless accusation about RVS question writing style, and Ranger certainly wasn't alone in pointing out how poor that accusation was.  After the tn5421 mess, Cado began his attack on borno, which clearly isn't a defense of borno.

Furthermore, did you have any reasons to lean towards borno being scum aside from RangerCado's actions?

1. It seemed to be a pressure vote, since you listed lots of reasons why I should be saying stuff and directed me to questions that I should answer.
2. Hm, I thought I saw buddying going on. I must have misread the name of an author somewhere. However, I did note that my ideas were bad once I looked at thing in more detail, so I mostly just spoke too soon.
3. He and tn were involved in a heated argument, and I tend to see people like that as slightly scummy. I did not vote for borno or tn because I was unsure about them being scum (borno seemed town to me by the end, and there was an explanation for tn's actions).

[LARD]

Jack and Tiruin As the IC's I would like to see you two go head to head because it would be instructive and interesting. If one of you is scum then I would like to know sooner rather than later because later you will be rallying the town to attack itself because that's what good scum does.

LARD: You do realize that you can't just tell two people to attack each other, right?

If that is not an option, then at least answer this: What possible motives are there for killing tn5421 other than avoiding being blocked?

A few posts back, in a spoiler addressed to TheDarkStar (spoilers being a useful way to organize posts.  Do read spoilers not addressed to you.  It's worthwhile.), I listed a few of the many, many possibilities.

Perhaps because he was thought by several players to be town.  Perhaps to cause chaos.  Perhaps because he would be a difficult target to lynch and too risky to want anywhere near LYLO.  I have little reason to lean strongly towards any one of those theories, or any other theory, at this time.

There are a lot of possibilities, and those are just a start.

6. No change, except for a bit more suspicious of you [TDS]. I don't use FoS, but if I did, you would have mine.
[...]
Also darkstar, I am very close to voting for you, so keep that in mind. It is a little threat, but I am still going after Kansa.

Why?  What was it about TheDarkStar's actions after you posted your reads that made you more suspicious of him?  About how strongly do you suspect him compared to Kansa/PTDfun?

One more question to you, LARD: Did Kansa's replacement request have any effect on your read of him?  If so, what?

1. Ok, by attack I meant put pressure on, because in your position, I would feel nervous not knowing whether the other most experienced player was mafia or not. Pressure and discussion was what I was asking for.
2&3. I guess guessing motives for the mafiakill isn't as telling as I thought it would be. Thanks for the help.
4. TDS always plays suspiciously in my eyes. Maybe it's the way he defends himself almost frantically, maybe it is the way he posts and then corrects himself. Those in themselves are not explicit scumtells, but they are suspicious.  I also said earlier that his comment about skimming your posts and forming an idea about you before he read in depth was suspect.   He FoS'ed me for some reason that I had already explained.  Little things like that make me think he is slightly "off"
5. Kansa on the other hand was just fence sitting, like an inexperienced mafia player is wont to do.  He dithered and didn't want to make a decision unless it was based off somebody else's scumhunting, as in, "wait until the mafia slips up".   His requesting replacement was suspect, like a mafia panicking under fire, but it also reminds me of my last game (also my first game) where I came under fire and worried a lot about how much random people on the internet despised me. I don't function well on the internet.  I hope it's not that, which is why I posted my little spoiler to him.  But I'll have to wait to put my vote back until PTDfun posts. If he doesn't post before day end, I will put it back on him.

[PTDfun]

Alright PTDfun I don't know how much experience you have (please tell me) or what your game is.  But I thought your predecessor was scum and as follows, you are.

Seriously though, if you could do a few things on this list, that would be great.
1. Tell us your previous mafia experience. I'm pretty new around here, so if you are a regular, I apologize.
2. Read the last few pages thoroughly (if not the whole game) and tell us your suspect list.
3. Start attacking someone.
4. Ask for advice from the IC's
5. Ask for updates on the game.
6. Read people's read lists. For me this is what I use to get the gist of a game.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be an IC, but I want a good idea of you before I put my vote back where it was.
Hope to hear from you!

1. This is my first time to play mafia online. I've played it in person about 10 times. My brother used to play mafia online and tell me about it. I've played before with more roles than cop and doc.
2. I'll be rereading the full thread tonight - got work today.
3. Will do.
4-6. Sounds good and thanks. (btw, what does IC stand for?)

[TheDarkStar]

1. Ok, by attack I meant put pressure on, because in your position, I would feel nervous not knowing whether the other most experienced player was mafia or not. Pressure and discussion was what I was asking for.

Why didn't you just put pressure on them yourself? They might be experienced, but it's a good idea to put pressure on people you find scummy to see how they react. You'll also learn a lot from pressuring experience people.

[TheDarkStar]

PTDfun:

(btw, what does IC stand for?)

Inexperience Challenged. On these forums in beginner Mafia games, it refers to the experienced people who have signed up to help new people along with playing (except the mafia IC, who just advises them). The ones for this game are Jack A T and Tiruin, which you probably already know.

Also, what are your reads?

LARD:

1. Ok, by attack I meant put pressure on, because in your position, I would feel nervous not knowing whether the other most experienced player was mafia or not. Pressure and discussion was what I was asking for.

Why didn't you just put pressure on them yourself? They might be experienced, but it's a good idea to put pressure on people you find scummy to see how they react.

EBWOP.

[Silthuri]

Votecount:

• LARD:
• TheDarkStar: Jack A T (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado: TheDarkStar (1)
• PTDfun:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: PTDfun, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin, LARD

Day two will end Monday at 10 pm EST.

Votes to extend: [0/3]
Votes to shorten: [0/4]

[PTDfun]

I read the first 100 posts tonight.

I am surprised tn5421 was killed by mafia. His use of misdirection and lack of asking questions in those posts made him look scummy. Mafia should have kept him alive as a decoy. (I'll come back to this when I finish catching up)

TheDarkStar and Tiruin: What do you think the best way to play mafia (as in scum roles) is?

[Jack A T]

Extend.  Day ends in two days and we have little to no content from 3/7 players.
Alright.  I think TheDarkStar's strange, aimless Day 1 read list was likely a result of rushing through the thread after replacing in.  Evidence particularly backing this is the thing about Ranger defending borno, a significant mistake in thread examination.  However, the fact that it took as much effort as it did to get that information out of him is disappointing, and troubling.

More troubling is some behaviour I'm seeing this day.

TheDarkStar: You are voting for RangerCado, and you asserted that you lean moderately towards him being scum.  With that vote, you asked him a set of questions.

You have not done a single thing to improve your read of or advance your case against your stated top suspect since then.

Soon, RangerCado responded, both answering your questions and asking you a set of questions.  You haven't responded.  Cado later addressed a statement to you regarding one of your points against LARD (who you are focusing on but not voting for).  No response.

So, after you answer Cado's questions, I want you to answer two of my own:
*Most players who care about catching scum care about the answers to questions they ask, especially when dealing with their suspects.  Why don't you care?
*Most players who care about catching scum care about the actions of their top suspect.  You're clearly not looking at your top suspect.  Why not?

His requesting replacement was suspect, like a mafia panicking under fire...

LARD: Alright, I really have to wonder how this notion is in the heads of so many newbies.  Replacement requests should be assumed to be in good faith, and I've never seen scum quit the game to give the team they would no longer be on an advantage.

Not exactly the answer I was expecting (I was expecting something about earlier apparent nervousness about Mafia and the stated reasons for a replacement request), but I guess that's an answer.

[Silthuri]

Votecount:

• LARD:
• TheDarkStar: Jack A T (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado: TheDarkStar (1)
• PTDfun:
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: PTDfun, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin, LARD

Day two will end Monday at 10 pm EST.

Votes to extend: [1/3]
Votes to shorten: [0/4]

[LARD]

1. Ok, by attack I meant put pressure on, because in your position, I would feel nervous not knowing whether the other most experienced player was mafia or not. Pressure and discussion was what I was asking for.

Why didn't you just put pressure on them yourself? They might be experienced, but it's a good idea to put pressure on people you find scummy to see how they react. You'll also learn a lot from pressuring experience people.

Simply because pressure from an IC means a lot more and carries a lot more weight than anything I could offer.  If I put pressure on one of them, they would calmly refute it because it would probably have to be about some stupid wording or interpretation error.  Not to say I won't try. Things are going slow around here though and it's the weekend.

-snip- I want a good idea of you before I put my vote back where it was.
Hope to hear from you!

PTDfun:   OK, I heard from you.  I still think you are mafia because of your unwillingness to post anything long and detailed.  Your posts have been short and generic. I realize this could just be because you are still reading and getting the gist of the game.  I would be completely open to being convinced by you about your not being scummy.
RVSP

[PTDfun]

My head hurts from reading all this. So much to sort through. Below are two reads. I will try to post more of them tomorrow morning. Extend

PTDfun: Welcome to the game!  After you read through the thread, please give your thoughts on the game so far, including reads of your fellow players.  In addition, would you mind summarizing your previous Mafia experience, if any?

TheDarkStar: You seem scummy to me. Please give the reasons for the following:
1. You avoided doing much for the first 6 days you were playing. By looking at your forum profile I can see that you were quite active posting on other things at the time.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Posted his reads May 28th

Time for my reads, based on reading the thread. Also, if Darkpaladin gets modkilled, it's MYLO.

darkpaladin109: Null read due to inactivity. I'll probably ask more things to his replacement if there is one.
borno: Active, but tunneling. Slight scum lean. If scum, then RangerCado is probably also scum.
TheDarkStar: Confirmed town for me  .
Deathsword: Scripten was inactive, so null read for now.
tn5421: Slight scum lean due to odd behavior, but (as Jack says) that could be unrelated to scumminess. If scum, then Jack A T is probably also scum.
RangerCado: Slight scum lean. Possibly borno's scumbuddy if borno is scum.
Kansa: Just started being active, but there isn't any reason to suspect him. Slight town lean.
Jack A T: Slight scum lean due to waving away problems with tn5421's argument. Probably tn5421's scumbuddy if tn5421 is scum.
Tiruin: Active now, and was inactive due to RL. Town lean.

I'll detail the reasons for why I think Jack A T and RangerCado are scum later, but at least one if not two of the scum are in the list of tn5421, borno, Jack A T, and RangerCado.

His post on the 30th was a cop out.

Well, it looks like I took too long to get around to looking at the four people I mentioned in detail. Because of the lack of time, I'll delay finishing looking at stuff until tonight, since I'll be able to see the lynch results. If I die tonight, though, take a look in detail at the three remaining people.

First post containing questions was on June 3rd. That's 6 days after joining the game.

As I said, here are my reads:

LARD:
Slight scum lean, due to post 213 where he decides that borno is scum rather than tn for unclear reasoning and post 203 for voting borno despite saying that he things that tn is probably scum. However, in those same posts, he questions people and scumhunts to an extent. He also replaced in at the end of the day, so there's a reason for him having less. As for darkpaladin, there is barely anything to go off of (but his reads list will be useful later in this game).

LARD, why did you think borno was scum (or scummier) rather than tn? What are your reads?

Deathsword:
Null read due to almost no real posts excused due to RL and replacing another nearly non-active person. Also, to answer his question, I had two main ideas for scumteams because of the way that people seemed to be cooperating, but later things made this doubtful. However, I still see Jack A T as scummy.

What are your reads, in light of last night's events? Please be more active.

RangerCado:
Moderate scum lean. Post 158: Seems to be interpreting what borno says differently, where he takes a random question as bad scumhunting and votes borno for this. Also, he is the only one who is really defending tn for a while, which could mean that he has insider knowledge. Also, post 156 (just use the previous link): He states that he is voting against the evidence that he sees. In (post 144), he shows all these reasons that tn is scummy and then unvotes him and focuses on someone else.

Why did you not vote for tn? Why did you interpret borno's post the way you did? What are your reads?

Kansa:
Null read due to near-inactivity.

Get in here and tell us your reads!

Tiruin:
Moderate town lean. In post 229/230, she seems like town due to trying to figure things out and asking questions. However, I have trouble getting a good read for her in general.

What do you think of yesterday's events? What do you vote now? What are your reads?

Jack A T[/color]:
I thought this was going to be a strong scum lean, but then I read through your posts, so you're leaning town. In the post just above this one (238), he votes for me rather than RangerCado, who he gives a scum lean, or LARD, who he gives a minor scum lean. However, this could simply be there to pressure me into giving my reads. You voted for borno at the end of the day, possibly for credit in post 218, and you use some reasoning that has mostly been used already. Because there is new reasoning there (and you have been doing some scumhunting throughout the game), though, I think that you found it on your own.

Thanks for the reads. What is your non-pressure vote? What do you think the scum killing tn implies?

2. Your posts since have been mostly defense.

Also, Fniff was fairly inactive. His posts were either

Oh hey, I'm here, don't worry.

type statements, responses to others, or vague theory about not voting for someone without sufficient evidence. He spent more effort on theorizing on when not to vote for someone than he did on how to actually identify scum. This seems scummy because the mafia benefits by convincing other players to doubt. He was requested to ask questions by tn and Jack A T and never did. I know you don't have any control over that, but since your are playing his slot, it's a point against you.

Tiruin: I know that RL keeps getting in the way, but I also think you are slightly on the scummy side. Difficulties in RL serve as legitimate grounds for lurking (which benefit the mafia). You have managed to make a few posts, but I did not find them to contribute much.

PTDfun:   OK, I heard from you.  I still think you are mafia because of your unwillingness to post anything long and detailed.  Your posts have been short and generic. I realize this could just be because you are still reading and getting the gist of the game.  I would be completely open to being convinced by you about your not being scummy.
RVSP

LARD: The post from MOWE that announced me joining the game was around 10am on the 5th (for me). I worked on the 5th all day and got home around 11pm and hit the sack. I made sure to check the forum the next morning - hence my first post.  I worked the 6th and 7th too for long days. I'm gutting a house right now (ripping out floors and walls) so I hope you'll understand I'm a bit tired when I get back. I was gone all day today as well, but for other reasons. This is why my posts have been infrequent since I joined. The shortness of those posts had to do not only with being tired and it being late, but also for lack of information (since I had to catch up). As of now I have read the 267 previous posts, and I hope to be making a bit of a contribution. Note that I am the same slot as my predecessor, and the main complaint with him was his passiveness, which he defended on the grounds of being confused about what he could contribute. So my defense to your voting for me is my above reads and my future aggressive activity in the game.

[Jack A T]

Day ends tomorrow, and we have a tie, an absolute newcomer just becoming active, and two inactive (but not yet prod-level inactive) players.

We really should extend.
PTDFun: A quick question with regard to your attack on TheDarkStar: When looking at his early inactivity, did you take into account the fact that 2 of those 6 days were during the night, when nobody could post?

LARD: If you had just replaced in, and had only read early posts in the thread, do you think you would be able or willing to post anything long and detailed about the game?