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[Tiruin]

So MOWE lives in a timezone which is 13 hours behind me o-o
That works! I've ~1 day left!

...Ohgods I'm a horrible IC >_>

[Jack A T]

Tiruin: When you've been able to post, you've been fine.  Nobody can perfectly predict what impact RL will have on their play.

Kansa's male.  I asked.

A few questions:
*I notice that when you started giving your reads, TDS had not yet posted and your null-town read on him was based purely on Fniff.  What has TDS done that has kept that read as it was?
*How about with LARD (formerly Darkpaladin), who had not yet replaced in when you started giving reads?
*Can you give examples of Cado's transparency?

[LARD]

LARD

Tiruin: Same as Jack but vice versa.  Also moderate town. But I can't read experienced players very well. I would like to see her opinions on Jack.

What's holding you back from reading experience? Any details on that?

Jack and Tiruin As the IC's I would like to see you two go head to head because it would be instructive and interesting. If one of you is scum then I would like to know sooner rather than later because later you will be rallying the town to attack itself because that's what good scum does.

If that is not an option, then at least answer this: What possible motives are there for killing tn5421 other than avoiding being blocked?

Ok? So let's say I'm scum--what can you infer from my words since before?
Note: Nobody would declaim themselves directly as scum--while it may be done in jest, its...more of cheap play. >.> Hard to descrbe.
Query on the orange part: Yes that's what good scum does, so take in my first sentence here--what if one of us was scum? What would you--or possibly the rest of you who aren't ICs, do?

Also possible motives? I have no idea where you got that notion of avoiding being blocked (where did you get that idea?) but possibly to narrow down...townies. :v
I have no idea, sincerely. If I was scum, I'd delegate my choice to my partner (though obviously giving my opinion on the matter) but let them choose--because it would be teaching them how to make a decision. Like that ol' adage of teaching a man how to fish as opposed to giving them fish only.

Oh hi Tiruin, I wish you all the best.  In response to your queries. . .

1. I don't read experienced players very well right now because I still feel like a newb. I feel that anything I throw at Jack by way of scumhunting he will just deftly throw right back.  The only other game I've read with him in it was Kingmaker IV and that was hardly a normal game. You and he just seem to be playing a standard game, scum-hunting normally. But I worry that one of you is mafia and I want to get clues about that.  That's why I asked you to interrogate him, so I could watch the sparks fly (hopefully).

2. I can't infer much from your previous posts, other than a few jokes and trying to teach things. Your assessments are detailed and your rationale strong, but since you haven't got yourself into any scrapes with other players because of RL stuff, I don't have a strong read on you.  I don't learn all that much from lists of reads, but from arguments between players, another reason that I want you and Jack to have discussions. 

3. What would I do if one of you were scum?  I'm doing it right now.  I am trying to get you two to interrogate each other so we can get dirt on one of you, if you are scum.  If you refused to do that, I would have to resort to interrogating you myself, something I was hoping to avoid as it would likely only make me look foolish.  I will probably have to start soon.


In the meantime, I would like everybody to consider my case against PTDfun.
1. Kansa's dithering and not making a call, waiting until something would happen that he could bandwagon on.
2. Buddying me.
3. Targeting TDS.  Because of Jack's case on TDS, he is arguably the easiest target.

This isn't a terribly strong case, but it is the one I feel best about.

[Silthuri]

Votecount:

• LARD:
• TheDarkStar: Jack A T (1)
• Deathsword:
• RangerCado: TheDarkStar (1)
• PTDfun: LARD (1)
• Jack A T:
• Tiruin:

Not voting: PTDfun, Deathsword, RangerCado, Tiruin

Day two will end tomorrow at 10 pm EST.

There are no more extends available today.

TheDarkStar has requested replacement!

RangerCado has been prodded.

[Silthuri]

RangerCado has also requested replacement.

[Jack A T]

Well, fuck.

[LARD]

My sentiments exactly

[4maskwolf]

I OFFER MYSELF AS TRIBUTE! BY WHICH I MEAN A REPLACEMENT.

[LARD]

YES! I get to play with 4mask again! Hi there!

[Silthuri]

4maskwolf has replaced TheDarkStar!

[PTDfun]

TheDarkStar is gone. I am torn between the fact that he can no longer defend himself and the fact that the town would benefit from me responding nonetheless. So I respond:

You have an odd way to count. Why do you call my main question post something other than offensive? If you include that important one (especially what I ask the people I suspect), I have about as many offensive posts as defensive ones. Also, it doesn't have to end in a question mark to demand a response. Why did you make it seem like I was being much more defensive than I was?

I don't believe that I am counting his posts in a weird way, but if someone wants to correct me, then I am open to it. Does anybody know which post he means when he says "my main question post"? I grant that a statement doesn't have to end in a question mark to demand response, but in his words:

You can say whatever you want, but it is useless unless you include evidence.

I am not deliberately misrepresenting him, and I am trying to be true to the way I currently see it. I am not trying to make him seem more defensive than he was. I saw his actions as defensive.

I did not think Jack A T and RangerCado were scum; I thought they (along with others) were scummy. It wasn't as much specific things as the general feel I got from reading things; my results from reading things in detail are already posted. I've said this several times; why do you ask me again?

My mistake. I should have typed 'scummy' (adjective) instead of 'scum' (noun). But despite the flaw in the grammar of my post, I asked again because I wanted his prior reason, not the one in the posted reads. I have now been answered by:

It wasn't as much specific things as the general feel I got from reading things

Tiruin:

People tend not to have too much control over some things in RL - if he doesn't have time, he doesn't have time. Why do you see this as scummy?

Tiruin: I know that RL keeps getting in the way, but I also think you are slightly on the scummy side. Difficulties in RL serve as legitimate grounds for lurking (which benefit the mafia). You have managed to make a few posts, but I did not find them to contribute much.

Valid, though it is wrong.
Assuming someone would use RL as a scapegoat is a...universal NO. in Mafia. It is disgust on the player, the principle, the role and the spirit of the game.

The normal (and yet unspoken) rule regarding people asking for a replacement is: Assume it is for legitimate reasons despite ANYTHING the player acts in game (even if said player is an immature jerk, leave it be...at least they have the...dignity to ask for a replacement).
If the player states RL as the reason--then it should be assumed that RL is giving heck for delaying in playing a game. However, notes of concern should also be posted so in such a case that RL is too much--the player would still know people care [like in this game :-[]

I'd ask what exactly isn't it contributing? Yes, I agree that it isn't in some ways, but what.../isn't\?
On that note: No, an IC or a player [IC is just a tag for me :v] will not use RL as grounds for lurking--that's just scummy, in out-of-mafia context of the word.
HOWEVER, lurking in the case of posting everywhere else? That is legitimate grounds for suspicion--howeve,r should be followed up by a query at first, if ever the case happens.

I am sorry for my mistake. I will take all further remarks concerning RL in good faith. This is my first game of mafia in text format. I am trying to learn. Thank you for correcting me for my crass behavior.

When you say "lurking in the case of posting everywhere else?" are you saying that it is a legitimate grounds for suspicion when a player is posting elsewhere (often) on Bay 12 and yet not posting in this game?
LARD:

Why did you ask that question about the best way to play scum?  Was the scum IC not responding in mafia chat?  Seriously, it just seems like you're asking how you should play scum.  As I said though, it's not a bad piece of evidence against you because if you were scum, you would just ask talk in scumchat.

1. I asked that question about the best way to play scum to Tiruin and TheDarkStar because I suspected them.
2. I asked that question because I thought that Tiruin's experience might give me a good explanation on what mafia are trying to do during the day (to help me scum hunt).
3. I asked that question because I thought that TheDarkStar had a small chance of slipping up in answering it (if he were mafia).
4. I asked a question because I just joined a game and my nooblet eyes read earlier in this game that being proactive about asking questions gives you data to work with. That even if I don't know how to analyze it, it's still content that wasn't there before, and thus will help town.

Could you state your reasons for accusing TDS that haven't been said by the other players, or more specifically, Jack?

Jack A T's reasons were
1.

TheDarkStar appears to be trying to give the impression of being here, but without actually saying anything of substance

2.

His first post, as read lists go, is strange.  He declared that he suspected every single consistently active player in the game, each for vague reasons (except RangerCado, who didn't even get a reason), and he declared that at least one of the scum was probably among that half of the players.

3.

No vote was made.

4.

So, there we got TheDarkStar taking little in the way of a position.

5.

He did, at least, say he would give more reasons later.

That never happened.  Two days later, about 3 hours before the end of the day and with numerous questions to answer, he posted that he'd taken too long to get detailed reasons together and that he decided to wait for the lynch results.  Still no solid position taken, and no questions answered.

My reason is that I see his actions as primarily defensive as detailed in the spoiler on post 274. As opposed to Jack A T's remark #1, I think that TheDarkStar's posts have been substantial, but primarily about his own neck.

When you give your reads, the one you are least suspicious of, it seems, is me. Now to me that seems like you are buddying me. You're just making yourself seem more suspicious.

I listed both you and RangerCado as town leaning. I didn't specify degrees. The quotes in the spoiler of my read of you are all pro-town. I don't care if you like me or not. I want to win. You are inquisitive. That helps town. Your directing attention at Jack A T also helps town. As I put in my reads, I'm having trouble reading him. I'm blanking out on what to even ask him about. Your efforts are helping me read him. That makes you look more townish.
(more coming)

[PTDfun]

EBWOP
Vote 4maskwolf

[4maskwolf]

Are there any outstanding questions leveled at me?

[Jack A T]

PTDfun: You do realize that my attack on TheDarkStar has changed over time, right?  I'm now focused on the bizarre behaviour regarding his vote: he either didn't care about his case enough to bother reading responses to his questions, or he deliberately refused to answer questions about his vote on RangerCado.

I await the rest of your intended content.

4maskwolf: Thoughts on the game?  Your predecessor, TheDarkStar, was under quite a bit of fire, particularly from PTDfun and I.  Questions have been directed at him for his behaviour, and have tended not to be generally applicable.

In the meantime, I would like everybody to consider my case against PTDfun.
1. Kansa's dithering and not making a call, waiting until something would happen that he could bandwagon on.
2. Buddying me.
3. Targeting TDS.  Because of Jack's case on TDS, he is arguably the easiest target.

LARD: Meh.  I don't read Kansa's behaviour as waiting for a wagon, but as a nervous and clueless newbie, trying to figure out the game.  Looking at the attack you made against Kansa...

To LARD: Honestly because I'm not entirely sure who is and who isn't mafia at this point, I probably should have cast a vote earlier on to add pressure to somebody but as we are really close to the end now it wouldn't do anything.
I would probably wait for them to slip up and contradict something or do something that makes them seem suspicious, I'm not really sure what questions to ask to make them slip up though. As for the actual method of that I would probably as them a question to clarify the part that contradicted something else or made them suspicious in my eyes.

This doesn't sit right for me. You just seem to be acting confused and unsure of yourself. That in itself is not a bad thing, but you use it as an excuse for not hunting or voting.  Don't worry about that, you are far more suspicious when you sit on the fence than when you start hunting and savagely tearing people apart for their smallest verbal blunders.
Oh, and waiting for mafia to slip up and contradict themselves is something that will keep you waiting for a while.  When somebody does contradict themselves, it is more often than not just an honest townie mistake.

So Kansa, You are sitting on the fence, confused and unsure, while afraid to make a move against anybody for fear of looking suspicious.  You should probably have cast your vote, it would have taken the suspicion off your head.  But you didn't. And now bad things will happen. 

... there isn't much.  You say a lot about him trying to avoid looking suspicious, but there isn't much I see to indicate that.  Can you explain?  The fence-sitting and confusion I think is due to his inexperience more than alignment (see me way back in Supernatural 3, for instance).

PTD's read of you was unimpressive, and he seems to be having difficulty explaining it, but he still has my questions about it to answer and says he has more post to come.  Let's see what he gives there.

The TDS targeting thing...meh.  His arguments aren't all that good (a less well made version of my original attack that I've abandoned, plus some stuff about defensiveness...), I will say.  However, there's nothing here pushing him above TDS/4mask in as a suspect for me.

[PTDfun]

I'm going through the posts in chronological order for my responses. Sorry that somethings end up out of order.
Jack A T:

*I noticed in your reads that you say you like several of LARD's posts.  It doesn't help much to just say you like certain posts.  Why do you like the ones you like?

I "like" the first two quotes because they answer my question about why tn5421 died (I question I posed in my second post). The disruption he caused helped the town by shaking things up - thus extracting more information. Now, LARD seems to be an aggressive player. This seems to help the town. If LARD is mafia, then his explanation would make him look more towny and thus help him. On the other hand, the information he uncovers will hurt him. If, upon rereading through LARD's posts I find that the content he is shaking up is unproductive (and aggression for aggression sake) then I would look on him with more suspicion.

I "like" his posts about you because they articulated something I noticed intuitively, but I did not have words for.

*You seem comfortable using Fniff's low activity against TheDarkStar.  Considering Fniff quit due to finding the game too advanced for him, is Fniff's inactivity worth all that much against TheDarkStar?

As I stated in post #295, I will take statements about RL in good faith. Thus, I must rescind this point against TheDarkStar. But, as in my reads, I still think he is mafia for another reason.
Tiruin:
What is a "logical smokescreen"?

Jack and Tiruin As the IC's I would like to see you two go head to head because it would be instructive and interesting. If one of you is scum then I would like to know sooner rather than later because later you will be rallying the town to attack itself because that's what good scum does.

If that is not an option, then at least answer this: What possible motives are there for killing tn5421 other than avoiding being blocked?

Ok? So let's say I'm scum--what can you infer from my words since before?
Note: Nobody would declaim themselves directly as scum--while it may be done in jest, its...more of cheap play. >.> Hard to descrbe.
Query on the orange part: Yes that's what good scum does, so take in my first sentence here--what if one of us was scum? What would you--or possibly the rest of you who aren't ICs, do?

Also possible motives? I have no idea where you got that notion of avoiding being blocked (where did you get that idea?) but possibly to narrow down...townies. :v

What does it mean to be "blocked"?

Like a poisoner--you hit a guy at night, they die next...time tmorrow after day but before night. So you plan in advance who to pick, and 'scumhunt' on the others that aren't your target--usually said target is the one you'd choose as a 'safecard' or someone you don't necessarily suspect but isn't Mafia so you won't kill your own people.

Would you mind elaborating on the green part? The way you word it, I can read it two ways:
1. You hit the guy at night. They die next time after tomorrow ends.
2. You hit the guy at night. They die next. Time tomorrow after day but before night.
Both of those do not make sense to me.