GlyphGryph - there was never a serious discussion. there were just deflections, like there are now. no one cares that neo-nazis played and still play a major role in Ukraine politics? well, thats THE problem.
You've certainly yet to provide a reason we should.
And yes, there really was. Your side had a terrible showing, mostly due to the continuing failure to demonstrate what ideas we should change, to what, and why, and instead gave us a bunch of dishonest motivations and equivocating.
For example, of the sort you are doing now.
When you are ready to make a coherent, complete argument, feel free to send me a PM, and I'll help you shape it up to a point where it might be worth posting in the thread, because if you have an actual useful information and a position you think we should adopt with evidence to support it, I want to hear it. But so far you've only managed to do is the equivalent a whole bunch of hand-wringing on how we shouldn't vote for the Democrats come next because the California rep is REALLY TERRIBLE.
And if you can't see the immediate an obvious problems with putting forward that sort of incomplete argument, THAT is the problem.
I am willing to help. I value your contributions. But they need to be of a
significantly higher quality than what you've put out so far, or I'm going to have to ignore you and stop wasting my time and the time of others by responding.