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[zombie urist]

Day extended to Tuesday November 26th 9 PM PST.

[Imp]

Prods?  Posts?  Cancelations?

[Squill]

Between homework and visiting relatives, I'm not sure how much I'll actually be able to play.

[Gentlefish]

Ghost-post!

Haha yay Thanksgiving! Might I offer the idea of a Thanksgiving-week-hiatus if anyone is interested at all in doing so?

And wow I did not really stand much chance did I, haha, I tried. 

[Imp]

Ghost-post!

Haha yay Thanksgiving! Might I offer the idea of a Thanksgiving-week-hiatus if anyone is interested at all in doing so?

And wow I did not really stand much chance did I, haha, I tried. 

Puff:

Scum win almost every game.  Your method was rather odd, probably didn't help you.  But I do believe you tried.

Besides, your death doesn't mean you lose, if you're aware of that, maybe not.

If Scum win, dead Scum win too.  Same with Town, if Town win, dead Town win too.

Kleril, this one's for you.  The one for me, that involves something you'd call cheating.


Squill.  There's more than one way to ask you a question.  More than one way to play.  And more than one way to end a game.

It was a hard choice for me, to decide between you and Tiruin.  But I have.  I've decided to believe that you are Town.

Tiruin walked in here without an intention of winning.  She wasn't careful enough in deciding who to vote for.  She wasn't Tiruin enough.

If she's Town, she deserves to lose.  She is an IC.  She knows better.  If not, this might teach her.  People come to BMs to learn.  Apparently the ICs too.  Maybe Tiruin tries harder to be Town when she's Scum.  Alright Tiruin; if that's true, you can die when you are Town because of that.  Deathsword too, who tarnished his role as IC in more than one way, Deathsword too, who if he is Town played so poorly he deserves to lose for it.

Town is hard.  I'm starting to think a lot of players sign up for these games, the experienced players, and not just those who offer to be ICs in BMs, but they sign up for these games wanting to be Scum, and don't care anymore when they find out they are Town.  Very much a self fulfilling prophecy, 'Town's going to lose so why try hard'.

So Squill, you've got a little more play to do, or not.

I don't see me changing my vote.  I'm done too.

So you can not vote and ensure the Scum win.

Or you can vote for me and ensure the Scum win, which will happen regardless of if Tiruin switches her vote from you to me or not.

Or you can vote for Tiruin, and possibly, if you are not Scum, Town might just win.

zombie urist -

if you let this game happen as it has because you thought you were doing the right thing, you were wrong.

If you ignored the lurkiness of Darvi, of Deathsword, of many of the newbie players because you thought you were doing the right thing to do so, you were wrong.

If you allowed this game to be played out under these conditions because you thought you would be wrong if you stopped it - you are wrong.

Squill, as far as I'm concerned, everything is in your hands now.  I'm Town, and I have been all game.  Every choice I've made is a Town choice, no matter if that choice was right or wrong.  You've played beside me this entire game, and if you cannot read my actions throughout as Town, then I guess you need to see that you were wrong too.  I'm not very sure about you.  You haven't worked for a Town win.  But you're not the only one.  And Tiruin -should- have.  And she didn't.

So.  I give you my decision.  You make the final call, whether you want to give Town a chance to win, or whether you do not.

[Squill]

Ok, I managed to get a little bit of time to post this morning.

Squill, you haven't been voting at the end of D for the past two Days.  Do you plan to use your vote this Day?

What do you think about Mafia games in general, is it 'a game for you' do you think?  Do you think most other Mafia games are very similar to a BM?

Now that we're down to Three, what do you think about the alignment of Tiruin and myself?

If the day was ending, and I was voting for Tiruin and she was voting for me - and you have no more information than you do right now - what would you do with your vote and why?

I had a few questions pending for you from before day end, they're in the post immediately before the end of day 3 post.

In answer to your questions, I do plan on using my vote today.
I do not think it is a game for me, as due to the rather poor communication, I usually do not know what is going on two months in advance. On top of that, I cannot entirely promise that I will remain interested in this game for long enough periods of time to play a good game.
As for the alignment of you and Tiruin, I think that despite being a poor IC, I think she is town, and that you are scum. Will discuss below.
I would vote for you, Imp, because that I think that you are scum.

This is intriguing. How can an active player influence the game when others just...jump on their assessment rather than give out their own personal ideas? The main points of playing the game also lie in the crux of philosophy--to discover and analyze. While there are common points of agreement, you can't justsay 'I wholeheartedly agree' then hop along the convincing train.

Surely, by due reason, you have ideas of your own. Ideas that, while not exactly conflicting, go askew from the line of thought the 'active' player has, hmm?

The main points of playing the game do not necessarily lie in convincing others, but in being correct in discernment. The convincing is usually after observing/detecting is done.

Is that first question rhetorical? In case it isn't, I think that it is much easier to influence the game if people jump on your bandwagon for no good reason.
Not quite sure what you mean here, but if you're asking whether or not I agree with Imp, then the answer is no. My train of thought just died a tragic and brutal death, so I'm not at all sure if that was what you're asking.

-snip-

@Imp:
This sets serious alarm bells in my head. You are asking me to lynch Tiruin because she deserves it?
Do you expect me to lynch her, just because she's voting on me at the moment?
To me, this seems like a last ditch effort to give me an easy lynch on the person who is trying to lynch me right now.

Also, thanks for telling us all that every choice you've made is town, that helps a lot./sarcasm

[Tiruin]

Intriguing. A melancholic note, Imp. That is a full swing of thought from your previous words. You take a thorough route and deign to support your vote?

I can understand some kind of vexation against DS, and Darvi for their lesser-than-expected performance (one on busy-ness, two on...unexplained leave), but tagging me as

Tiruin walked in here without an intention of winning.  She wasn't careful enough in deciding who to vote for.  She wasn't Tiruin enough.

This?

This underhanded slap to my dignity more than my role as a player? MY INTENT IS TO WIN, BUT TO ALSO TEACH. I DO NOT JOIN GAMES JUST TO THROWAWAY SUCH NOTIONS AND WASTE A VALUABLE SLOT AS A PLAYER.
And to think otherwise of me is no less an insult than an attack to my honor.

If she's Town, she deserves to lose.  She is an IC.  She knows better.  If not, this might teach her.  People come to BMs to learn.  Apparently the ICs too.  Maybe Tiruin tries harder to be Town when she's Scum.  Alright Tiruin; if that's true, you can die when you are Town because of that.  Deathsword too, who tarnished his role as IC in more than one way, Deathsword too, who if he is Town played so poorly he deserves to lose for it.

Ahh, so if I flip town, I deserved my fate? You appeal to some kind of notion that I can't exactly nail down, but seemingly take a overtly-righteous stance that somehow, player ethics or values come in question and denounce others about it. The orange part? Forgive my eloquence, but I call BS on it. It seems you've a diction on what defines town more than how you see people play as town, yes?

Because the bolded portion afterwards seems more related than not. Same goes for relating Deathsword, who, I have to say, isn't playing anymore. Any below-the-belt quips at him can be addressed in personal matters, or post-game. The mere note that you're announcing it in public and looking at the IC role--as compared to what the player announces when playing said role--seems that you've an annoyance with this.

The following statements you give appeal more than to emotions with lacking note. I could understand the deal with frustration, but there are better ways to word it. If I've to take a tup of your style there: You're bringing it into extremes. Either/Or, me or Tiruin? Help town win by voting the other?

I see reluctance and contradiction in the same post.

It was a hard choice for me, to decide between you and Tiruin.  But I have.  I've decided to believe that you are Town.

Why is Squill town?

I don't see me changing my vote.  I'm done too.

Why close all lines of communication? Other than give the gesture of being rude, this isn't town-play and rather gives the notion of 'IT'S EITHER YOU OR ME, PUNK.' with the appended insult being optional.

Town is hard.  I'm starting to think a lot of players sign up for these games, the experienced players, and not just those who offer to be ICs in BMs, but they sign up for these games wanting to be Scum, and don't care anymore when they find out they are Town.  Very much a self fulfilling prophecy, 'Town's going to lose so why try hard'.

I'd keep my silence and respect your opinion here, but I choose to speak.

To speak on behalf on those who favor one side or another. Contrived bias forms from a playstyle which does so, and to keep on wanting scum-due to the want of manipulation, perhaps-or to want town due to how 'innocent' it appears does not hold the crux of Mafia. What matters is how you communicate, regardless of alignment.

Heck yes. Town is frickin' hard. Yet gloriously satisfying when played well. Scum, in the general notion is frickin' easy. But in how you play your role is the note that matters. For me, I go lone wolf no matter which alignment I am. Looking to the group as always, yet always wary of my path. The bolded note there appears to me that you've taken a sip from the cup of bias, and dictate a pillar of knowledge without the foundation of wisdom.

Meaning: That's a pretty scathing accusation there. Subtly calling me a cheap player who throwsaway the decent notion of scumhunting, even though it was never said--though worded precisely, in your vote and motive.

'Don't care'. 'but'. 'not just'.

All those definitives used in a way to give a concrete stand on your opinion. While I respect that you have an opinion, I have to take a stand and challenge it in its entirety.

Let me round this code of intrigue with a simple question.

What are you doing, Imp? Can you define what makes a Townie, in brevity?

Explain to me your 'mindset' when you joined this game, what your intentions were then.  No really - what did you intend to do in your play, both D2, early D3, mid D3, and late D3.  Explain to me too now your 'mindset' as you play this game, what your intentions are now.

Simple in two words. "Play." "Win."
If you unfortunately expected me, as an IC rather than a player to teach rather than play, then you are wrong.
If you unfortunately expected me, as a player rather than an IC, to play rather than teach, then you are still wrong.
Both go in tandem; both go with the player's character and personality.
What I intended to do is to keep notes. To pursue the scientific Mafia process of checking in and out:
 Firstly, to note if all players in-game have at least conscious knowledge how the game is played, so as to keep voluntariness in playing.
 Secondly, is to play by fire. To play my game as I would a real game. Lacking fervor? Perhaps. Lacking notes? Perhaps. Though I have to detail that there are few times where you--or anyone--can predict my playstyle. I am amorphous. An amalgam of thoughts. What I intend to do is seen by my posts, and despite my RL duties, I try my best to keep up with what I start. And what I start, I see to the thrice damned finish.
 Thirdly, do you take a focus to what I did in exacts during that time, or do you see me explaining myself here--compared to what I posted, and did then--some sort of summary or defense against anything you have? What I said, is what I said. That is why there are no edits in Mafia. Your word is your word, and any interpretation pertaining to it denotes a rational following.

Though I have to note. If I am to be insulted, then bring that trash to my face rather than subtly hint it out.

Scum win almost every game.  Your method was rather odd, probably didn't help you.  But I do believe you tried.

While the statistics don't lie, its in how the game is played that matters and how the set-up is done. All else are up to the players.

Squill, as far as I'm concerned, everything is in your hands now. I'm Town, and I have been all game.  Every choice I've made is a Town choice, no matter if that choice was right or wrong.  You've played beside me this entire game, and if you cannot read my actions throughout as Town, then I guess you need to see that you were wrong too.  I'm not very sure about you.  You haven't worked for a Town win.  But you're not the only one.  And Tiruin -should- have.  And she didn't.

So.  I give you my decision.  You make the final call, whether you want to give Town a chance to win, or whether you do not.

And you give him a decision--something he always had, as an ultimatum, hmm?
You're appealing to the one you rank as 'town'. How sure are you of him being town? How sure are you of me being scum? Playstyle? Fervor? Passion? Number of posts?
The bolded note is a superficial add-on. You have no need to say that unless you're using it as a bargaining token. You don't change roles and come-traitor to the team you're on. What is that even for? Are you giving up after all this time?
And on the underlined part. What kind of reasoning is that?

You state on terminology, but lack how its played out. It's like an alleged zealot professing that their actions are right 'because they stand for the greater good!'. You may be donned in shining armor, with a polished cape and a stern will, but when it is time to kill your foe, do you stay your blade or end their life, because 'what you did was good'? This is rhetorical.

You may stand on an alignment, one way or another, yet it is by your action in itself which keep you to that alignment. I hope you're familiar with that given a history of D&D?

I will cease to speak for the latest bolded portion, as it is a direct attack against the person. I only have to ask...Why.

Why would you resort to such low means, that all sorts of logic frown upon to do that? Such a flippant act is...disgusting. You judge before the hammer is given, and the verdict is layed. You speak behind my back, yet all your vote entails is a shallow stab at me. And not just me, but everyone before me. You carry a vendetta against them? So be it.

But when you make it into the area of argumentum ad hominem, then I am lost for words. Have I taught wrong? Am I lacking? Does my playstyle not carry even a note of learning in it--if so far that I've done evil, then let your acts be opposite to mine, and learn from it! Why must you address another and denounce me that way, when I am no farther than where Squill stands in listening to you?


Squill:

Is that first question rhetorical? In case it isn't, I think that it is much easier to influence the game if people jump on your bandwagon for no good reason.

It is only rhetorical if it concludes, in that matter.
...
So how are people jumping on a bandwagon an influence to the game? Does it not matter their intent or how/why they do so? Why do you use the 'bandwagon' as a term there? You do know that it has a negative meaning when used in Mafia, yes?

[Tiruin]

As for the alignment of you and Tiruin, I think that despite being a poor IC[...]

Wait, this just seals it. I...ask only one thing.

I will ask on why you think I am town in contrast to Imp, but then I fear that it'll be taken wrong.

I do not think it is a game for me, as due to the rather poor communication, I usually do not know what is going on two months in advance. On top of that, I cannot entirely promise that I will remain interested in this game for long enough periods of time to play a good game.

What communication is there that is lacking?
In RL mafia, you have verbal as well as body language--the other side of the coin which speaks when words are not spoken. Here, you have textual--akin to verbal communication that you may relay all words constructed in your mind, and may also look back on what you and others have said, that the memory does not wane.

I fail to see how poor communication relates in this scenario, or if at all, in this mode of presenting information. Can you explain?

...Why am I a poor IC, that you only take mention of it now rather than before?

[Squill]

Squill:

Is that first question rhetorical? In case it isn't, I think that it is much easier to influence the game if people jump on your bandwagon for no good reason.

It is only rhetorical if it concludes, in that matter.
...
So how are people jumping on a bandwagon an influence to the game? Does it not matter their intent or how/why they do so? Why do you use the 'bandwagon' as a term there? You do know that it has a negative meaning when used in Mafia, yes?

People jumping on a bandwagon influences the game by blindly following people, leading to the lynch of people without proper investigation.

I fail to see how poor communication relates in this scenario, or if at all, in this mode of presenting information. Can you explain?

Sorry for being unclear, I meant poor communication with my family IRL; for example, I didn't know we'd have relatives over for a week until a few days before they came.

On that note, this is probably the last post I can make here today.

[Imp]

No Squill.

Keep in mind, if I'm Scum, I know you're Town.

Tiruin's willing to lynch you.  I'd need to dance, maybe.  I could pick on your not very good Towniness.  Then Tiruin and I 'shake hands' and lynch the 'most probable Scum', that being you, and I win.

It actually would have been -way easier- to get a Town win if I believe you're the Scum.  All I have to do is look into Tiruin's play, forgive her Scummy choices as Scummy choices, and we kill you.  That's easy - if only Tiruin's Town and you are Scum.

Unfortunately, I fear that's not the case.  And I'm sure enough - I've played beside Tiruin in a now finished game.  I have seen how she talked in the game thread, and how she talked in Scum chat.  I've also seen her vote in a situation that was way more pressured and confusing than our end of D2 situation that she replaced into, though I don't know if she's what alignment there and it's not over so I shouldn't discuss it - but I have -seen it and felt it-.

If Tiruin's Town, she's playing terribly, and she tries harder everywhere else.  That's not the Tiruin I know.  She -can- and -does- play to her Wincon, even under emotional distress, even under pressure and emotional distress.

Thus she -was- playing to it, even here.  And if my analysis is wrong - Shame on Tiruin, not just me.  Tiruin -failed- this game, if she is Town.  And I can live with losing because that means that -she- loses too.  Because she -is- an IC.  She -asked- to replace in.  And she knows what that means, period.

But there's the other side of the coin.  Tiruin is Scum.  In that case, she -is- playing to her Wincon.  It's just not a Town wincon.

Tiruin:  I do as I do because your play has disgusted me.  You are clearly playing to your Wincon, and that wincon is not Town.  You're offended?  I'm offended too, and you can have that offendedness right back.

I viewed Squill alone as ~40% likely to be Town.  I viewed you alone as ~5% likely to be Town.  When I view you both together, that's why I pick Squill to be Town.

This game -should- have been stopped.  It was not.  It is a garbage travesty of what a BM should be, of what any game should be.

I have decided that I feel NO SHAME in losing this game, so long as I use my vote as it should be used.

I have known for about the entirety of D3 that Squill has no trust or liking of me.

That Squill believes that I would, being -Scum- waste Lylo on a long and protracted fight with my partner, a fight that could end only in the death of one Scum or the other - that proves only that Squill doesn't think very clearly, or that he thinks WAY to much of my craftiness and way to little of my desire to win, especially when the win is at hand.
I'm essentially back in 'early D3 again', powerless except for my vote.  With no one to join me, to help me, to also vote and make there be any chance of a Town win.  So be it.  I can't fight that situation.  I have -no power-.  So be it.  I've been here before, and I expected to die then and see my game lost.  I expect the same here.  There is -nothing- I can do to change this.  The power to change it exists, but it is not in my hands, and not under my control.

It's not in the hands of the Scum either.

It's in Squill's hands.  The confused, but clearly not Scum newbie who -if he were Scum- would know he could safely vote for either me or Tiruin.  At the point of my failure, of my powerlessness, of my utter helplessness, I look into my would-be killer's mind again, as I stared into bsnott's.  And I see Town.  That is Town with their gun to my head, Town with their hands on my throat.

That makes me remain powerless.  If I switch my vote to Squill, in lylo, there is no possible chance of a Town win.  The only possible chance of a Town win is for Squill to switch his vote to Tiruin.

I now view Squill as confirmed Town.  Since I know my alignment there's only one choice left for possible Scum.

Squill, do as you do.  You -know- if I were Scum, I need only paint you as Scum and join Tiruin in voting for you.  Game over, Scum win.  But I -cannot- do that.  That is proof I am Town, the best, most direct, truest proof I can offer you, that I am Town.

I ask you to do as you do, Squill.  But I hope you consider deeply why I would, Being Scum, insist on voting for Tiruin and refuse to join her in voting for you - if I am Scum, the death of -either- Town wins the game for me.  I tell you that I do what I do because I believe you are Town, and I am also Town.  The only possible Town win here is to lynch Tiruin.

I will not flinch from what I see as the last hope of a Town win.

[Tiruin]

Ahh, I do love my tactics. Let us round this train.

Tiruin's willing to lynch you.  I'd need to dance, maybe.  I could pick on your not very good Towniness.  Then Tiruin and I 'shake hands' and lynch the 'most probable Scum', that being you, and I win.

Willing? My dear. Is it that I keep my vote on him that I am willing? I question the both of you, with varying levels of trust in between, and to me, you taking the holier-than-thou path of...denouncing my play, being disgusted without drawing any tangible note, and in general spitting at everyone else--only apparent of this time being--dictates one thing.

That you, are scum.

I have seen how she talked in the game thread, and how she talked in Scum chat.  I've also seen her vote in a situation that was way more pressured and confusing than our end of D2 situation that she replaced into, though I don't know if she's what alignment there and it's not over so I shouldn't discuss it - but I have -seen it and felt it-.

Wherein you believe one game is enough to judge me like so and then discard me as some plaything to insult and then pull the strings to tout the lines of emotional appeals? You see, but do not state the differences which back your case. This is a dangerous mode of pseudo-deference in talking to Squill. If at all, dangerous that you try to make differences without stating what they are, exactly.

If Tiruin's Town, she's playing terribly, and she tries harder everywhere else.  That's not the Tiruin I know.  She -can- and -does- play to her Wincon, even under emotional distress, even under pressure and emotional distress.

Then who is the Tiruin you know? What wincon do you think I'm playing under? How terrible am I doing that you begin to insult me as a person rather than a player?

Tiruin:  I do as I do because your play has disgusted me.  You are clearly playing to your Wincon, and that wincon is not Town.  You're offended?  I'm offended too, and you can have that offendedness right back.

My play wherein I state my errors and take it like a (wo)man? Wherein I debate with you in full respect and what I get back is a misinterpretation that bogs the line between mudslinging and utter denouncement? Wherein the arguments toe the line of sharp-offendedness?
What play is it that you poke at? My errors to which I admitted full honesty to, or perhaps you're seeing things back there which you aren't stating but rather, generalizing?

I viewed Squill alone as ~40% likely to be Town.  I viewed you alone as ~5% likely to be Town.  When I view you both together, that's why I pick Squill to be Town.

In which you don't even expound on why. If I was ~5% likely to be town, where was your vote to usher in the tide of vindication for all the dead who have died, and all the silence in between? The same scenario could be said in where you are scum--where you pull up numbers and adjectives as your case--to which I ask where it started, and where the errs lie at its end.

I have known for about the entirety of D3 that Squill has no trust or liking of me.

And like this would be something set in stone? Squill is a player, just like you. Players may distrust players, but there is--or has never been any, as far as my memory goes--situation wherein a player becomes purely blinded that total distrust occurs.

...Well, until you sounded your attack on me given that you will not change your vote.

That Squill believes that I would, being -Scum- waste Lylo on a long and protracted fight with my partner, a fight that could end only in the death of one Scum or the other - that proves only that Squill doesn't think very clearly, or that he thinks WAY to much of my craftiness and way to little of my desire to win, especially when the win is at hand.

Ah, but let me bring up a note that you yourself used to push the border. Remember how you outed Bsnott? Now let me bring in that superficial notice to how I extended. Doesn't that make me towny~?
This, is WIFOM. Why would you probably fight down your partner at the time being? He was scummy--you do notice that suspicion was on him for both his acts and responses to people, and his predecessor prior to him, yes? I do note that you fought with Rolepgeek, and in turn pressed against him as a glorious Townie would, but here?
..Here, it is a very different fight of a very different character under the same name. You clear yourself on that complexity, yet I have to note that there was a sense of apprehension. Of fear between Puff and you--how the attacks were made, they did not strike true, but struck at odds to lies and how the presentation was done.

I'm essentially back in 'early D3 again', powerless except for my vote.  With no one to join me, to help me, to also vote and make there be any chance of a Town win.  So be it.  I can't fight that situation.  I have -no power-.  So be it.  I've been here before, and I expected to die then and see my game lost.  I expect the same here.  There is -nothing- I can do to change this.  The power to change it exists, but it is not in my hands, and not under my control.

Woe be the poet! Whom melancholic sights seek ready dues! You doubt as doubt begets the doubter, and seek failure like a long lost friend! Where doth power stem but from the heart and choice of its wielder?
How powerless are you, but to convince the other against the other, if not scum persuading a brother?

You state too much of a 'town' perspective, stating it as if its a future that would exist. Meaning: I do note that you keep on, KEEP ON repeating the essentiality of a 'TOWN' anything, without bothering to reinforce your case or bring up a modum of attack which has its foundation in rational or logical law. You tout the nature of something being 'town', and then seemingly push the possum and play dead, dying or hopeless.

This is no rant--and if it be a rant, then I have little hope in persuing this matter. You play the role of a victim, grieving when grief isn't due, or bereave a fate which hasn't even occurred. I can forgive the context of it being inside a rant--for sometimes games take an emotional toll on the person that they do oft forget that any kind of post is a permanent and tangible sign of how you felt, and even then it would be public, for all to see--but here? Repeatedly? Again?

I asked only one thing, out of all others, on what you were doing, Imp. I get only a retort; a slathering and vile retort. That because of my deeds, you react as such? I can understand you labeling me as scum, but in acting both with anger to the person as well as the player and pulling all kinds of appeals to emotion, wincon, possibility, probability and telltale notion? Repeating the past as if its something relevant to base upon--when said past has little to no connection to the essence of Mafia at all?!

It's in Squill's hands.  The confused, but clearly not Scum newbie who -if he were Scum- would know he could safely vote for either me or Tiruin.  At the point of my failure, of my powerlessness, of my utter helplessness, I look into my would-be killer's mind again, as I stared into bsnott's.  And I see Town.  That is Town with their gun to my head, Town with their hands on my throat.

That makes me remain powerless.  If I switch my vote to Squill, in lylo, there is no possible chance of a Town win.  The only possible chance of a Town win is for Squill to switch his vote to Tiruin.

I now view Squill as confirmed Town.  Since I know my alignment there's only one choice left for possible Scum.

...You have plenty much to learn. And plenty much to drop off your ego. You think I'm blindsided to not consider--sans the personal insults you may or hopefully may not have stated directly at me--the core principle of the time? That I would be stoopidly enraged by these notions to not consider who exactly is scum or not? You attack like a cornered person, only aware of her own survival.

Do you consider that of the other two? Did you state why you consider one or the other?

Squill, do as you do.  You -know- if I were Scum, I need only paint you as Scum and join Tiruin in voting for you.  Game over, Scum win.  But I -cannot- do that.  That is proof I am Town, the best, most direct, truest proof I can offer you, that I am Town.

I ask you to do as you do, Squill.  But I hope you consider deeply why I would, Being Scum, insist on voting for Tiruin and refuse to join her in voting for you - if I am Scum, the death of -either- Town wins the game for me.  I tell you that I do what I do because I believe you are Town, and I am also Town.  The only possible Town win here is to lynch Tiruin.

No.

You beg the other person as if your target is bereft of communication. As if I am already dead in your eyes, that you see the only other person worth talking to. You put yourself in the hypothetical proposition that, if scum, would do otherwise given the tellings of recent time, yet fail to notice how this path leads to damnation. That is another appeal to the player on probability, inticing WIFOM yet again! "Why wouldn't I join this attack on you, Squill? If I am scum, then I would." Even if you were scum, I believe that you would consider the arguments based in front of you and not backtrack on your suspicions, no matter how subtle they are, yes?

However I do note yet again, your tell of repeating 'Town' as if its a banner to rally under--despite any Townsman not knowing who the other Townsmen are--and then repeating it ad nauseum that it loses its meaning is of scathing note. This is something you should not do in any game.

I will not flinch from what I see as the last hope of a Town win.

And here you stand your ground. Tell me, would a Towny consider all prospects and leave questions to her 'enemy', and after leaving the question answered, attack her without any regard to the question she asked?

So too would I not flinch, but I will not use the sanctity of this 'Town' you bother on repeating endlessly. You need notice that your truest proof is contradicting, as you did have a valid case of suspicion against me.

You did not pursue it.

What are you doing.

[Imp]

Tiruin, I do believe I have nothing left to discuss with you until after this game is over.

Squill will make it clear if he wishes any of these points discussed further.

I think Tiruin is Scum.  I think everything Tiruin is and has been saying this game is Scum ploy/teaching.  It's not possible to convince Scum of anything.  Debating Scum is rather pointless, unless it's to make their Scumminess clearer to others.  Squill's the other.

Squill doesn't trust me (or Tiruin) but he's decided I am Scum and Tiruin is not.  On the surface that's not so different from how I've decided that Tiruin is Scum and Squill is not - but in the depths of certainty it possibly is.

The only way for this game to end with a Town win is for the two Town to either recognize each other and agree, or for the two Town to recognize the Scum and agree.

I have a terrible track record of identifying Scum - I don't trust I can.  But I -have- successfully picked out Town.  So I have placed my Trust in that.

What the heck did Kleril do, back on D1?  He and I -danced-.  We went into this weird mental thing.  I had Kleril 'in my hands' and I felt this keenly.  And Kleril changed.  Kleril came out of that 'claiming to know' that I was Town.  That seemed -insane- to me then.

Then it happened to me.  I sat in Bsnott's hands, and I knew his intentions.  I didn't then realize the connection to what might have happened between Kleril and myself then.  But now it's happened a second time.  I think I'm starting to understand Kleril, at least something of him.  Sorry again, Kleril.

Anyway, Squill.  If you've got questions, ask or repeat them (assuming you want to hear me answer something that Tiruin asked).

Otherwise this game's pretty much done, I think.  Squill does or does not change his vote; Tiruin does or does not change hers.  We go to end of day as a tie, giving a certain Scum win (because I am not changing my vote, I am certain I vote for Scum and there is no other possible way for me to vote which could allow for or create a Town win), or we go to end of day with either a Tiruin lynch or an Imp lynch.

It's Squill's vote that matters.  Tiruin is Scum, at this point in play her vote does not matter.

[Tiruin]

...This is what I've been trying to tell you. You want me to pull up other games to reinforce an idea? Here it is. I've noted that you've an ostensible sense of where you put your belief. Just like you 'outed' NQT in the Supernatural--note that you listened to him at the time--you seem to be doing the same to me.

Yet problem being that you close all fronts of communication yet continue your ploy with Squill. Any Townie would not do such a thing, such as disregard what the target has to say.

Have you given your basis on why I'm scum? No. You have not.

Squill doesn't trust me (or Tiruin) but he's decided I am Scum and Tiruin is not.  On the surface that's not so different from how I've decided that Tiruin is Scum and Squill is not - but in the depths of certainty it possibly is.

Squill trusts either of us. Trust meaning that he's open to listen. You're unnecessarily complicating the matter by pushing it to the extreme.

The only way for this game to end with a Town win is for the two Town to either recognize each other and agree, or for the two Town to recognize the Scum and agree.

*Tiruin nods at Squill, then at Imp.
Good observation, but a basic observation nonetheless. How do you decide whether a person is town or not? You check their posts from dawn till dusk.

Otherwise this game's pretty much done, I think.  Squill does or does not change his vote; Tiruin does or does not change hers.  We go to end of day as a tie, giving a certain Scum win (because I am not changing my vote, I am certain I vote for Scum and there is no other possible way for me to vote which could allow for or create a Town win), or we go to end of day with either a Tiruin lynch or an Imp lynch.

...I really am unsure whether you're really thinking I'm keeping my vote on Squill, or on whether you really think that this day will end in a tie (hint: it won't.)

But perhaps I'm the blind one and you are correct.

What makes Squill town. What makes me scum. I believe you missed those questions above all others in my post, and that you're ignoring all other questions there?

It's Squill's vote that matters.  Tiruin is Scum, at this point in play her vote does not matter.

You speak as if totally certain, huh. That's quite a huge leap from your past note. However I will indulge you by making my motive apparent, Imp. Regarding your play, it has been spot on..until the end. I cannot fathom why you're dipping into the realm of insult in order to carve out your name and denounce the other, however I have to note how dangerous it is to completely shut off a line of communication with a person when its a one or the other situation.

Unless you're scum, that is, because by then, it won't matter. You just have to convince the other townie to go lynch alongside you.

Have you yet replied to my query on your 'truest proof of townyness'? I have to prod, everyone learns. You seem to be denying yourself that.

[zombie urist]

Day ends Tuesday November 26th 9 PM PST.

Imp - Tiruin, squill
squill -
Tiruin - Imp

Not voting -

0 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 2 needed

[Tiruin]

I think Tiruin is Scum.  I think everything Tiruin is and has been saying this game is Scum [...]teaching

Also hell no. In general, I try to be the least manipulative I can be if scum, and if town, to be transparent as possible unless the situation needs a bit of shadow, and even then I explain myself.

...

I really suck as an IC, huh. Can't anyone get the damn guts to say it to my face so that at least my traumatically-cynical-and-skeptic self would stop wishing a horrible death on you all and utter distrust of your names? Please?