Why is Squill town?
... Cause you're not? Because I analyze you both as appearing strongly to not work towards a Town wincon, but I can say 'he's an introverted newbie and doesn't care very much anymore, if he ever did' about Squill, but I can't 'explain away' your anti-Town behavior with any answer I can imagine.
I questioned you about it. Some of your answers seem and feel false, others aren't answers or I don't understand them. What am I supposed to do then? And don't forget - I only get to make half a decision. If you are the Scum I believe you to be, I can't hang you. It takes 'us' to hang anyone, and I flat out don't have an us. I've done tried my last idea to 'discuss' the issue of 'Tiruin is Scum' with Squill. He didn't like any of my earlier conversations and he didn't like this most recent one either. Alright. I'm out of ideas, and that's a failing I guess I lose for.
What matters is how you communicate, regardless of alignment.
Not always. With a fair listener, yes, always. But when the one you speak to is not a fair listener, no dice, and sometimes flat out no way to communicate.
Meaning: That's a pretty scathing accusation there. Subtly calling me a cheap player who throwsaway the decent notion of scumhunting, even though it was never said--though worded precisely, in your vote and motive.
Yep, you can read clearly, even though you claim unawareness(elsewhere) that you are speaking deeply unclearly. It's one possible explanation that could actually explain your behavior in this game. You haven't offered me an explanation that felt true and made sense yet, and I asked you multiple times.
Thirdly, do you take a focus to what I did in exacts during that time, or do you see me explaining myself here--compared to what I posted, and did then--some sort of summary or defense against anything you have? What I said, is what I said. That is why there are no edits in Mafia. Your word is your word, and any interpretation pertaining to it denotes a rational following.
We have a communication break here. It seems that you feel you have adequately answered my queries and your explanations are reasonable for a non-Scum to have.
Perhaps, go back and reread my questions to you on D3, and reread your answers? Or do all of your words make sense to you, your labrynthine twists and vague mentions crystal clear?
I've asked you elsewhere what some of your sentences meant, after a game was finished. You told me then that you didn't know, but you guessed you meant 'a specific thing you pointed out'. That doesn't inspire my confidence, even to question you more throughly, but I have tried that. You just keep twisting.
Should I badger you, chase you and follow until maybe you stop twisting? That seems... a foolish choice for me. You're clearly having fun with what you do.
And you give him a decision--something he always had, as an ultimatum, hmm?
... It's always his. Always was. I spoke to him as I spoke to him because I'd not spoken to him that way before. Because he had made it clear that none of my other forms of communication were acceptable to him. I offered him a new style. He sees ultimatiums from me in perhaps every post I made, to him and others:
But the thing about you is, in my view, your intentions are so difficult to read. I am near constantly switching between your posts as extensively detailed and thorough attempts to scumhunt, and veiled threats. It seems like no one has really challenged you a whole lot, and if you want to many of the less active players would gladly follow your lead, or risk getting lynched themselves. It irritates me that I can see two different possibilities of your posts, but have so much trouble discerning what it is.
Squill:
Veiled threats, the sort that you see in my writing, do you believe those are exclusively Pro-Town behavior, Anti-Town behavior, or a mixture of both? If it's a mixture, what's the ratio approximately seem to be?
A factor that affects now, which didn't before (in case you see me as a bully or whatever else bad, be I Town or not) - we have no room for a mislynch.
I think veiled threats might have been a poor choice of words, but I think you get what I mean. I think that you're the most aggressive player in the game, which is both good and bad. Good because it probably puts pressure on scum, but bad because it intimidates people from voting on you, out of fear that you, as an aggressive player, will turn on them. This is not to say that you are definitely or even probably scum, it's just to say that no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet. So I want to ask you: Do you think that there can be a thing as too aggressive in this game? Do you think that it is possible that, by being very aggressive, to deflect scrutiny by means of intimidation?
As for a target too high to hit, I mean you are aggressive and thorough in basically every post you make; people do not want to accuse you, because nobody wants to deal with the ensuing scrutiny. As probably the most frequent poster, with the longest posts, nobody wants to spend their time in the game embroiled in conflict with you. Which, if you're a scum, is a very good thing. Do you understand what I am saying?
So I wrote to him this last time with a tone and posture I believe was absolutely not aggressive. Deferential, you called it? More or less:
This is a dangerous mode of pseudo-deference in talking to Squill.
He's reading my words, but it seems for one thing only, and that's to throw broken-off pieces of them back at me. None the less, he's what I have to work with - all the others are already dead. I tried another method. It failed too. I'm out of ideas.
Every choice I've made is a Town choice, no matter if that choice was right or wrong.
And on the underlined part. What kind of reasoning is that?
Honest reasoning. Asking him to look. Not break pieces off to throw at me. Look and think. I've messed up this game, I've lead a mislynch, I've been wrong about many things. But I did try to distinguish Town from Scum, even in viewing others errors and weird choices. I fought mislynches too - I fought to save Luke (though only because I saw two far better targets, and not because I believed Luke Town), and after much interaction I came to believe Cat Town and stopped hunting him. Not stopped teaching - oh Tiruin, who walks into the game with a freely bestowed vote upon Darvi, but oh, you read my words enough to know to ask me:
Imp: Query. Why're you asking definition of terms on SBC? How does that help your eye on him?
Teacher, is my attempt to teach so poor it cannot be recognized as teaching?
... I can barely bring myself to type these words, but none the less I shall. How can you so selectively read my words, to notice things like the questions I ask Cat, but miss my votes and vote changes, and the reasons given? I have trouble typing this because I cry, because I feel so betrayed, so tricked, so set up. Foul, foul Tiruin. These lies are ugly things. It hurts to be toyed with to death by a cat.
What are you doing, Imp? Can you define what makes a Townie, in brevity?
I already had:
The newbie Townie cannot help but do right and wrong things, but will be trying to do right things. Will reach towards trying to do right action and on the level of their understanding will reach towards dropping wrong actions and reach towards right ones.
That's a description for a newbie Townie - but the experienced Townie is much the same, only less inept. A Townie is working, consistently and the best they can for a Town win. Or they really shouldn't have signed up for the game - sure, as I come to understand more recently:
I'm starting to think a lot of players sign up for these games, the experienced players, and not just those who offer to be ICs in BMs, but they sign up for these games wanting to be Scum, and don't care anymore when they find out they are Town. Very much a self fulfilling prophecy, 'Town's going to lose so why try hard'.
That's not a punch at -you-. That's a punch thrown to anyone whose nose gets in the way. Anyone whom that describes.
You may stand on an alignment, one way or another, yet it is by your action in itself which keep you to that alignment. I hope you're familiar with that given a history of D&D?
Yeah, it's your actions that I feel show your alignment, yes. Familiar, and seen.
As to what I was doing, I was trying to talk to Squill and be heard, instead of triggering another auto-slap reflex.
Why would you resort to such low means, that all sorts of logic frown upon to do that? Such a flippant act is...disgusting. You judge before the hammer is given, and the verdict is layed. You speak behind my back, yet all your vote entails is a shallow stab at me. And not just me, but everyone before me. You carry a vendetta against them?
Nope. Stripped down translation of my words would be "The players shared a role, they're both Town or both Scum. Hey, they both seem to be Scum."
But when you make it into the area of argumentum ad hominem, then I am lost for words. Have I taught wrong? Am I lacking? Does my playstyle not carry even a note of learning in it--if so far that I've done evil, then let your acts be opposite to mine, and learn from it! Why must you address another and denounce me that way, when I am no farther than where Squill stands in listening to you?
You're a fine teacher. I just wish you walked into the game and took consistant action towards a Town win. But you very much didn't, your explanations why not sound like lies and I had to repeatedly ask you to get them, you claim to not understand stuff - but I know from elsewhere your courage, intelligence, and something of your cunning - Sure I can learn from you, and I can be a nice and respectful student as well. But I never said I was here to learn. I even told you that you stopped being seen by me as a mentor in any game once we both become players in it. So yeah. Yucky lies. And it's hard to talk to Squill. I was hoping not impossible. But how to talk to Squill? I thought I'd try that new way.
And distance - well. Yes there is a difference. One of you is Scum. One of you is very, very far from me, not even playing the same sort of game really.
Tiruin's willing to lynch you. I'd need to dance, maybe. I could pick on your not very good Towniness. Then Tiruin and I 'shake hands' and lynch the 'most probable Scum', that being you, and I win.
Willing? My dear. Is it that I keep my vote on him that I am willing? I question the both of you, with varying levels of trust in between, and to me, you taking the holier-than-thou path of...denouncing my play, being disgusted without drawing any tangible note, and in general spitting at everyone else--only apparent of this time being--dictates one thing.
That you, are scum.
Yes cat, you have claws. Yes, you strike hard when you please. Yep, you gots a temper. Classify me all you want - if you're Scum it's -all a lie-. You're teaching, but.... I don't know how to explain it satisfactorily if I haven't already.
Wherein you believe one game is enough to judge me like so and then discard me as some plaything to insult and then pull the strings to tout the lines of emotional appeals?
What we're playing right now is also one game. So that made two games to judge you from. And now I've got a significant portion of a third too for evaluating. But no, you're not a plaything. I was -not- saying play with you. I was saying 'kill her, she is Scum'.
(1)Then who is the Tiruin you know? (2)What wincon do you think I'm playing under? (3)How terrible am I doing that you begin to insult me as a person rather than a player?
1 You.
2 Scum.
3 Doesn't apply - was trying to talk to Squill in a way that he might accept more than my previous forms.
My play wherein I state my errors and take it like a (wo)man? Wherein I debate with you in full respect and what I get back is a misinterpretation that bogs the line between mudslinging and utter denouncement? Wherein the arguments toe the line of sharp-offendedness?
What play is it that you poke at? My errors to which I admitted full honesty to, or perhaps you're seeing things back there which you aren't stating but rather, generalizing?
Umm. Scum ploy, to take a possibly less offensive track of explanation.
In which you don't even expound on
why. If I was ~5% likely to be town, where was
your vote to usher in the tide of vindication for all the dead who have died, and all the silence in between?[/quote]
Err, it was on Rolepgeek/Pufferfish. He seemed even more likely to be Scum than you. Wasn't that obvious? *bemused shrug*
And like this would be something set in stone? Squill is a player, just like you. Players may distrust players, but there is--or has never been any, as far as my memory goes--situation wherein a player becomes purely blinded that total distrust occurs.
...Well, until you sounded your attack on me given that you will not change your vote.
yeah there is. Toonyman to Imp, early-to-mid D1 S6. Chased me with an axe, near enough, until somehow Toaster the Terrifying backed him off with one question. Others had asked the same question, so clearly Toaster's Terrifying or something.
So too, S6 D3. Wasn't any way I was going to change my vote from Max, unless I could get support for a lynch on the player I thought was probably the Charismatic Cultist, though I didn't know what name the role had (and I was wrong about who had it)
Remember how you outed Bsnott? Now let me bring in that superficial notice to how I extended. Doesn't that make me towny~?
No. Timing matters. You -didn't- do it (perhaps couldn't be there) during an extended time period when it actually mattered. When you -were- there and it did matter, you DIDN'T ASK TO EXTEND. When I challenged you about it you started to claim that you THOUGHT YOU ALREADY HAD. Then you changed your story -again- and said that you thought no one else wanted to extend - that one burns me the most, because you ARE AN IC, AND SINCE WHEN DOES OUR IC NOT DO THE RIGHT THING BECAUSE SHE THINKS NO ONE ELSE (the newbies) ARE NOT DOING IT TOO?
Ahem. *steepled fingers, deep breath* Do not shout at the Scum, Imp. Sit and wait calmly until the cat is ready to bite down to kill.
Where doth power stem but from the heart and choice of its wielder?
How powerless are you, but to convince the other against the other, if not scum persuading a brother?
Every player is powerless, when they sit alone, when their team, known to them or not, does not recognize them as being on the same side. Some games have powers that can temporarily change that balance. This one does not, so this one that applies for.
This is no rant--and if it be a rant, then I have little hope in persuing this matter. You play the role of a victim, grieving when grief isn't due, or bereave a fate which hasn't even occurred. I can forgive the context of it being inside a rant--for sometimes games take an emotional toll on the person that they do oft forget that any kind of post is a permanent and tangible sign of how you felt, and even then it would be public, for all to see--but here? Repeatedly? Again?
There's question marks here, but I don't get your question unless you're asking to confirm that I know and understand that my words are part of permanent record. Umm, yeah. I will note though that I faced a great deal of abuse as a child, and some of it in the form of bullying. Rolepgeek, bleep that he was because he was Scum and thus had a world of options; he chose to do to me what he did because he wanted to. And -he- claims that what I did to him was worse than anything he did to me - oh no. He cut me and he cut me deep. I -still- bleed. I'm going to be bleeding for some time. There's quite a few reasons why I want this game -stopped-. Mental and emotional health issues are among them.
...You have plenty much to learn. And plenty much to drop off your ego. You think I'm blindsided to not consider--sans the personal insults you may or hopefully may not have stated directly at me--the core principle of the time? That I would be stoopidly enraged by these notions to not consider who exactly is scum or not? You attack like a cornered person, only aware of her own survival.
Do you consider that of the other two? Did you state why you consider one or the other?
I've stated my case on you. You've answered it, sure. Your answers don't 'fit'.
And no, you misread three things, my emotional reaction to Rolepgeek, which was only worsened as I learned he actually -was- indeed Scum, and then read things like this:
Has there ever not been a nice scum team?
When you aren't feeling all frustrated at having to build a case and make it actually work out, and can instead just view the game from above, it is a lot more relaxing.
Yeah, bleep was a choice, one he didn't need to make but did. And now bleep is locked into my impression of the game, this game specifically, and my impression of this game's Scum specifically. Oh, and the other two things - your style of Scum is, of course, deceitful as it must be. And I was trying to talk to Squill, briefly and in a new way, in case it was manner of speaking, not speaker, that has offended him so.
You beg the other person as if your target is bereft of communication. As if I am already dead in your eyes, that you see the only other person worth talking to. You put yourself in the hypothetical proposition that, if scum, would do otherwise given the tellings of recent time, yet fail to notice how this path leads to damnation. That is another appeal to the player on probability, inticing WIFOM yet again! "Why wouldn't I join this attack on you, Squill? If I am scum, then I would." Even if you were scum, I believe that you would consider the arguments based in front of you and not backtrack on your suspicions, no matter how subtle they are, yes?
However I do note yet again, your tell of repeating 'Town' as if its a banner to rally under--despite any Townsman not knowing who the other Townsmen are--and then repeating it ad nauseum that it loses its meaning is of scathing note. This is something you should not do in any game.
No. It's not that I'm Scum. If I were, my arguments, reasons, everything I said would need to be just that little bit twisted (or simply wrong, perhaps).
But Squill has talked to me about how he cannot tell if I am Scum or not, and how anything I've said and done in game could have been done with Scum motive. That's.... Rather hard to argue against. Occam's Razor comes to mind, Luke that wasn't mislynched, Cat that wasn't mislynched, I fought to prevent both of those (needless fights were I Scum). But Squill did claim to accept my reasoning on bsnott being Town. So I tried to offer my best to him along similar lines. He's not having any - any reach towards him from me is getting bits of my posts chopped off and flung back at me - introvert in a type of defensive mode, -leave Squill alone-.
I will not flinch from what I see as the last hope of a Town win.
And here you stand your ground. Tell me, would a Towny consider all prospects and leave questions to her 'enemy', and after leaving the question answered, attack her without any regard to the question she asked?
So too would I not flinch, but I will not use the sanctity of this 'Town' you bother on repeating endlessly. You need notice that your truest proof is contradicting, as you did have a valid case of suspicion against me.
You did not pursue it.
What are you doing.
Umm. Cause Squill's Squill. And there's not exactly much I can do with Squill at this point except get things thrown at me. -More words- from me, be they words towards you or words towards anyone else or words towards him.... no desire to offend him here but he's rather like a dog in attack mode, he -is- going to defend the area from that stranger who got to close to his fenced yard, and he's not going to stop because that's what he does.
'Proper Scumhunting' of you from me cannot possibly convince Squill of anything at this point. I think my best chance was backing off as much as I could and letting Squill decide for himself, without any further words from me. Sounds like he has, bummer. But it's not like I had any better chances.
...This is what I've been trying to tell you. You want me to pull up other games to reinforce an idea? Here it is. I've noted that you've an ostensible sense of where you put your belief. Just like you 'outed' NQT in the Supernatural--note that you listened to him at the time--you seem to be doing the same to me.
Yet problem being that you close all fronts of communication yet continue your ploy with Squill. Any Townie would not do such a thing, such as disregard what the target has to say.
Have you given your basis on why I'm scum? No. You have not.
Umm. D3, yeah I did. And I dunno what to tell you about a Townie in my situation talking to someone who appears to be reacting to them as Squill is to me. My behavior's not my first choice either. You got any suggestions that actually take Squill's reactions (as they are, not as they 'should be') into account?
Squill doesn't trust me (or Tiruin) but he's decided I am Scum and Tiruin is not. On the surface that's not so different from how I've decided that Tiruin is Scum and Squill is not - but in the depths of certainty it possibly is.
Squill trusts either of us. Trust meaning that he's open to listen. You're unnecessarily complicating the matter by pushing it to the extreme.
Umm... no he doesn't, doesn't trust either of us and doesn't really want to listen to either of us, and he doesn't even want to play, he's just agreed that he 'should', so he is going through the motions he feels he must. Or I'm wrong, or even if I'm right, maybe I am unnecessarily complicating matters. Hadn't realized, whoops.
How do you decide whether a person is town or not? You check their posts from dawn till dusk.
Agreed. Not everyone is willing. Maybe most people aren't.
...I really am unsure whether you're really thinking I'm keeping my vote on Squill, or on whether you really think that this day will end in a tie (hint: it won't.)
... Sure it could. Squill refuses to vote. I refuse to switch my vote from you. You... don't vote either then? You vote for yourself? Or you place a vote and create a tie?
But you're right. If it came to -that-, I don't know that I could avoid bending. That's a game of 'chicken' I think I am glad we're not playing.
But perhaps I'm the blind one and you are correct.
What makes Squill town. What makes me scum. I believe you missed those questions above all others in my post, and that you're ignoring all other questions there?
Oh, I could build a pretty decent case against either of you I think. Squill does look seriously Scummy to me too. It's just that I know one of you is Town, and I have the 'handy excuse' to consider - Squill's newbie, and it's more believable that he walked in here like he is as Town, then that you, being experienced, walked in here but didn't charge for a Town wincon, in fact stumbled and tripped and fumbled in directions persistently away from that Town wincon on D2 until the clock ran down.
But this is lylo. And I don't get to build cases against the both of you. I don't get to accept a mislynch. Your actions, already described, mark you as Scum, more likely Scum than he.
I've already walked passively to the slaughter once, like a domestic cow believing it was just going to the barn for another night, in the Town loss of S6. I didn't like that taste and I'd prefer not to repeat it.
You speak as if totally certain, huh. That's quite a huge leap from your past note. However I will indulge you by making my motive apparent, Imp. Regarding your play, it has been spot on..until the end. I cannot fathom why you're dipping into the realm of insult in order to carve out your name and denounce the other, however I have to note how dangerous it is to completely shut off a line of communication with a person when its a one or the other situation.
Unless you're scum, that is, because by then, it won't matter. You just have to convince the other townie to go lynch alongside you.
Have you yet replied to my query on your 'truest proof of townyness'? I have to prod, everyone learns. You seem to be denying yourself that.
Yeah, I replied to it on D3. You're allowed to ask again, it's answered again above. And yeah, I imagine Scum would be a really comfy role to have right now.*
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Topic: Beginner's Mafia XLIII: Robot Mafia - GAME OVER - TOWN WIN! (Read 136390 times)