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[Tiruin]

While I'd love to say that my previous actions here have been in the spirit of teaching, the intent was wholly behind the spur of the moment. Yea, this game is for learning-and Imp places the idea perfectly in her eloquence. I have shortened out of impulse--better to see the day ended rather than cancelled--without taking in the factors and viewpoints of everyone else.

...Checking back, I come off as arrogant, at worst. At best..then lightheaded in thought. There is none I can say to defuse or oppose anything stated in that rant, Imp, as it all falls true to me. (But I have to point out, when things are labeled LYLO - it is the general belief that {in the absence of alignment shifters and all other roles affecting the lynch or life//death of a player} the day MUST end in a scum lynch. No less, or it is game over and the collective {town} enemy, wins. This response directed to the parenthesis..judging by the idea that we /are/ five people with two of whom being scum).

The values and..virtues given, I-...would love to discuss it when the game has ended. T'would look like a good future Imp.
~~~
DETACHING:
However I must agree. With the absence of words from the other players, whether or not the lynched person is scum--the lack of anything just kills the wait off, giving the impression of apathy (active lurking -is- a valid tactic..though I'm glad nobody ever puts the reason to RL stuff and must be proved via the hard route of checking in).

..Anyway, that's all this one has to say for now.

[Squill]

@Imp:

Do you believe I'm trying to look Town by being the loudest one decrying my fate?

I feel like I already answered this one somewhere, but whatever.
I was saying that it was a possibility, but I was not sure that it was true, and I couldn't decide how likely it was. However, I believe that in the spirit of the game, if something can be pointed out as scummy behavior, that, unless it's either very obvious or already mentioned, it should be pointed out. So, I thought that "If Imp were scum, WHY would she be doing this?" I believed that this was the most likely reason. So I pointed it out.

Squill, anything you want to talk about?

Sorry for not answering this one, I was thinking that if the answer was no, then I shouldn't stress it too much.
However, there is now something I want to say: At least once, but if I remember correctly than a few times, you have said now that I am wrong about you not being questioned much. Looking back, maybe that was a bit of exaggeration. But I will maintain that at least relative to just about everyone but post-Deathsword Tiruin, you haven't been scumhunted against too much.

Does this make sense?

I suppose it does, but see above question for more details. I typed that before this one and this is how it turned out.

What is your interpretation, considering your statement that "no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet"?  Do you consider that serious Scumhunting, or do you consider what Puff has done in presenting his case against me this day to be serious Scumhunting?

Another question that can be answered by above responses.

How do you define serious Scumhunting, what do you recognize as serious Scumhunting?

As serious scumhunting, I refer to drawn out conversations with questions and answers coming from both parties, much like this current conversation with you.

Are you considering at all that one vote is almost -never- enough to lynch anyone, especially if players are following the thread?

If I 'turn on someone' - all I can do is type words and place 1 vote.  I can try to be convincing,  I can try anything I please - but if I act wrongly, if I behave counter to reasonable behavior - that is scummy, yes?  There are other players in the game, and each of them has a vote.  If I 'turn on someone' in a way that anyone feels as inappropriate, there are many solutions.  Some involve words, some involve votes.  One person cannot usually lynch anyone, but one person can sure get lynched by behaving wrongly.  It's not possible to turn on 'everyone', is it?  And if that was done, would that not hasten the lynch of that offending and offensive player (well, maybe not in lylo, but certainly before then?)

Not quite sure how to respond to this, do you want answers to each individual question?
For now, here's a blanket answer: One player can make a lynch, because one player, especially one as active as you, has some capability to convince others. That is, after all, one of the main points of playing the game.

Why did you decide that 'pushing for the end' was the answer you supported the most?  Were you giving up on your Wincon, at least for the time, were you 'sort of' boycotting the game, or what?

I think I still am pushing for the end a bit. I decided that taking a tie was preferable to playing past the point where the game could be played as intended at an almost guranteed loss. It was at the point where the game was meant to be played with x amount of people, but we had several less than that.
I think I had more to say on something, but I was interrupted in the middle of typing this and lost my train of thought. I'll post again if I remember.





 

[Imp]

Squill:

@Imp:

Do you believe I'm trying to look Town by being the loudest one decrying my fate?

I feel like I already answered this one somewhere, but whatever.

Here's what you answered:

Motherfuck. Forgot about the whole "Halloween" thing being yesterday when I posted.

@Imp: I think it's possible that you are pretending to be upset to appeal to townies. After all, what better way to look like town than, when the game goes poorly, to be the loudest one decrying your fate?

Squill, your question confuses me.  What fate do you see me decrying?

@Imp: I'm saying that if you were a scum, it makes a lot of sense for you to be the one saying that all is lost for town.

Here's what I'd asked:

Motherfuck. Forgot about the whole "Halloween" thing being yesterday when I posted.

@Imp: I think it's possible that you are pretending to be upset to appeal to townies. After all, what better way to look like town than, when the game goes poorly, to be the loudest one decrying your fate?
@bsnott: Are you here? Why bother replacing if you aren't gonna play?

Squill, your question confuses me.  What fate do you see me decrying?

I have spoken of being depressed by inactivity.  Without more activity in this thread, I'm not going to have much more to give this game - I'm understanding better how players work as a team, and how truly little any one player can do alone.

I am outraged by the lack of rules enforcement and following.  That's not a player issue, as in it's not any player's fault (the absence from play is but the enforcement of that is not a player's fault) and its nothing any player can fix.  I've stated my views clearly on that issue, the Mod has made his decision, and I've also stated that if most of the other players in this game are going to be active then I'm going to play too.

Do you believe I'm trying to look Town by being the loudest one decrying my fate?

So you 'answered it' by answering the first question I asked, with no comment on anything else I said and no response to the second question I asked.  And think that you answered it somewhere else.

Still, Tiruin's made the claim she thought she'd already asked for an extension when she joined the game near the end of D2, but couldn't make her first post until within 24 hours of the day end.  Despite being challenged about it twice, she still said she thought she did - then she said she thought no one wanted an extension so she didn't ask for one.

There's only 2 Scum among us.  No matter HOW SCUMMY everyones actions look to me, there's a hard limit of total Scum in this game. *Punches a wall in her imagination*.

At least once, but if I remember correctly than a few times, you have said now that I am wrong about you not being questioned much. Looking back, maybe that was a bit of exaggeration. But I will maintain that at least relative to just about everyone but post-Deathsword Tiruin, you haven't been scumhunted against too much.

You may be remembering where I spoke of that first - it was to Puff, who appeared to hold an opinion opposite of yours:

One last question I'd like to see if you'd like to answer before I properly respond to your post - and of course, feel free to decline if you see fit - Squill says that I've not been seriously scumhunted against yet.

... that no one has seriously scumhunted against you yet.

That seems to be a very different viewpoint than yours, in how you describe D2 interactions.  Do you agree with what Squill says about my having not been 'seriously Scumhunted against' yet?

Yes. You have been scumhunted, but it took the sideline between you and RPG. I honestly almost missed it had I not been going post by post. Seriously scumhunted? He was serious about the hunt.

Now, you maintain that by 'just about everyone' but Tiruin, I have not been 'Scumhunted against' too much.

But you define Scumhunting here:

How do you define serious Scumhunting, what do you recognize as serious Scumhunting?

As serious scumhunting, I refer to drawn out conversations with questions and answers coming from both parties, much like this current conversation with you.

So maybe I should have asked you what 'Scumhunted against' means - if that's not the same thing as 'serious Scumhunting' to you (consider this a question that requires an answer if you DO have a different defintion for 'Scumhunted against').

But since I didn't know to ask you that earlier, now I need to ask about your perceptions of the whole game.

I've had 'back and forth' conversations with most players this entire game.  Every D of the game.  Especially D1, where I had significant back and forths with every player in the game - and those players who 'clammed up' like yourself and the far-worse Luke I poured -vast- effort into trying to create that back and forth.

D2 I forced there to be back and forth between Cat and myself, he was just flat out goofing off and I -had- to force it.  I tried to have it with Zero, but D2 he went silent after one exchange.  I tried to have it with Darvi who was silent all of D2 save for one brief and utterly non-interactive 'oops' post.  And there was extensive back and forth interaction with both Rolepgeek and Deathsword much of D2.  Why was there so 'little' with you?  Look to yourself for at least half of that answer.  Your behavior and choices influence the outcome of this game for good and ill as much as everyone elses.

D3 I was initally silent, and in deep protest, seeing a certain Scum win from the level of inactivity present in yourself, Tiruin, Mr.Zero.  Once circumstances changed and meaningful play appeared possible again - I have engaged in back and forth interactions - that I assure you on my end are focused on Scumhunting - with every player alive in game.

So I have to ask you, Squill.  What is up with -you-?  What is up with your interpretations of interactions, and 'lack of interaction'?

Why did you decide that 'pushing for the end' was the answer you supported the most?  Were you giving up on your Wincon, at least for the time, were you 'sort of' boycotting the game, or what?

I think I still am pushing for the end a bit. I decided that taking a tie was preferable to playing past the point where the game could be played as intended at an almost guranteed loss. It was at the point where the game was meant to be played with x amount of people, but we had several less than that.

I agree, your play looks like that to me too.  I don't understand what you mean by "taking a tie" - what is a tie in Mafia games?  I don't believe we can have a tie - unless you mean 'cancel the game'.  I -do- still support that.

But I don't get to say that happens, and neither do you.  Only zombie can.  However - Squill, you can say when you stopped caring about a Town win.  You can point out the exact post in this thread where -you- gave up.  Where you switched from wanting Town to win, to not caring if Town won or not -you just wanted the game over.

I want to go back with whatever time is left and read backwards and forwards from that point.  I want to feel your intention, feel that shift, know that point of change.  That's hopefully going to be a good enough test of you, for me to lock in your 'flavor'- to feel what you wanted before, and compare that to what I feel from you now.

That's probably the best 'clear test' of you I'm going to be able to find to understand your alignment in this game.

[Tiruin]

Are you considering at all that one vote is almost -never- enough to lynch anyone, especially if players are following the thread?

If I 'turn on someone' - all I can do is type words and place 1 vote.  I can try to be convincing,  I can try anything I please - but if I act wrongly, if I behave counter to reasonable behavior - that is scummy, yes?  There are other players in the game, and each of them has a vote.  If I 'turn on someone' in a way that anyone feels as inappropriate, there are many solutions.  Some involve words, some involve votes.  One person cannot usually lynch anyone, but one person can sure get lynched by behaving wrongly.  It's not possible to turn on 'everyone', is it?  And if that was done, would that not hasten the lynch of that offending and offensive player (well, maybe not in lylo, but certainly before then?)

Not quite sure how to respond to this, do you want answers to each individual question?
For now, here's a blanket answer: One player can make a lynch, because one player, especially one as active as you, has some capability to convince others. That is, after all, one of the main points of playing the game.

This is intriguing. How can an active player influence the game when others just...jump on their assessment rather than give out their own personal ideas? The main points of playing the game also lie in the crux of philosophy--to discover and analyze. While there are common points of agreement, you can't justsay 'I wholeheartedly agree' then hop along the convincing train.

Surely, by due reason, you have ideas of your own. Ideas that, while not exactly conflicting, go askew from the line of thought the 'active' player has, hmm?

The main points of playing the game do not necessarily lie in convincing others, but in being correct in discernment. The convincing is usually after observing/detecting is done.

[zombie urist]

Day ends Tuesday November 19th 9 PM PST. ~1 hour 20 mins from this post

Imp - Pufferfish
squill -
bsnott -
Pufferfish - bsnott, Tiruin, Imp
Tiruin -

Not voting - squill

0 to extend, 2 needed
1 to shorten, 3 needed

[zombie urist]

Another day passed tensely here at the cargo bay. The arguments shifted many times, paranoia causing everyone to closely examine everyone else. But at the end of the day, a clear candidate was selected. "Pufferfish must be infected" the robots beep. ZOM-B acknowledges the robots' verdict and prepares the crusher to accept another robot body. Pufferfish is forced into the machine and with a crunch has his shell pulverized.

ZOM-B takes his remains and quickly scans it. It doesn't take long this time. Almost immediately, ZOM-B warns "MALWARE DETECTED IN PUFFERFISH'S MEMORY". A nearby chute opens, and the rest of the robots push him in. His body will be incinerated.

Content with their decision, the robots retire to their chargers.

================

Pufferfish has been lynched! He was an infected robot (mafia goon)

================

Night 3 will end Wednesday November 20th 9PM PST

[zombie urist]

Fresh from a night of sleep and productive day yesterday, the robots eagerly gathered again at the center of the room. Unfortunately they soon realize that one of their compatriots is not present amongst them. A brief search reveals a horrifying sight. bsnott's body was high in the air, supported by a forklift going through the middle of his torso. The robots quickly lower his remains and presents it to ZOM-B to analyze. Another loyal worker down.

===========================

bsnott has been killed! He was a vanilla townie.

===========================

Day 4 will end Friday November 22nd 9PM PST

[Imp]

Squill, you haven't been voting at the end of D for the past two Days.  Do you plan to use your vote this Day?

What do you think about Mafia games in general, is it 'a game for you' do you think?  Do you think most other Mafia games are very similar to a BM?

Now that we're down to Three, what do you think about the alignment of Tiruin and myself?

If the day was ending, and I was voting for Tiruin and she was voting for me - and you have no more information than you do right now - what would you do with your vote and why?

I had a few questions pending for you from before day end, they're in the post immediately before the end of day 3 post.

Tiruin:  What are your thoughts about this game now?

[Tiruin]

Tiruin:  What are your thoughts about this game now?

That I'd give my superficial note as a player and attack Squill due to spurious process of logic in his acts, most notably of D3 and emphasis goes on how he pegged you down due to a technical expression of the self.

Squill: I await your answers to my queries. I will also indulge in the thinking game.

Say, if I'm voting Imp and Imp is voting me, what would be your response to this situation?

[Tiruin]

Tiruin:  What are your thoughts about this game now?

Now onto the neutral side!
..My thoughts are jumbled and mostly scattered. Some of them blame me for my lack of motivating the people given how activity...took a sharp curve. Like DF's difficulty curve.

Imp has a special mention for doing the motivating despite being a player, and in my sight, has exceeded expectations in being quite notable in her acts. She has appeared Towny to me through most things I judge by, though..I get a niggling feeling about her. Bleh, must just be my doubt. Whether scum or town, I can't peg much or at all on the former and would be proud to see her as the latter.

..Though I did not like the note on 'scum, please kill me!' -- it didn't come off as goading back then. Something to refrain from saying, if town or scum. I..would probably not want to discuss how that works with me as I guess the effect others would interpret it as is subjective, but..as a player, I don't think that's a reasonable way to say stuff (despite it being a rant) :s
^{Also I'd like any other people to voice out their viewpoints on the players and the ICs given how our discussion in that one BM thread is going, to be placed here.}

Tiruin:  What are your thoughts about this game now?

That I'd give my superficial note as a player and attack Squill due to spurious process of logic in his acts, most notably of D3 and emphasis goes on how he pegged you down due to a technical expression of the self.

Expounding: While it could be said that others stand out on how scummy Squill is, what keeps on being stuck on my mind when I think of his role here is that one time what he did. It didn't speak well of the intent. It's like the principle of double effect-1 good and 1 bad, inverted. Yes you may be voting out a person--however the context of using that vote lay purely on a technical (and analytical, given how it was worded) basis.

Something I really doubt any townie would do.

Imp: Have I missed anything which you'd like to ask me?

Squill:
Apologies for my lack of teaching. I'm not the best teacher; not good in motivating, persuading or encouraging others-as what my self-esteem says to me-nor do I seem to inculcate the glory of learning or the thrill of discovery despite my own knowledge and pursuits within that field.

But let me level my inquiries into this list. Disregard all else:
One, being this scenario.

Say, if I'm voting Imp and Imp is voting me, what would be your response to this situation?

Two, being my note on your attack on Imp. If you had to post to show activity, then why hit Imp on what she said at that time?

Edit-realization:
..Squill has announced that he needs a replacement. Argh.
..

...Y'know I am in favor of what Imp's proposal is given that notion (player is favoring to be replaced due to probably external factors).

just cancel the game, do role flips, open the chats

As of another thought: This...is a prime example of how activity works out in a forum mafia game. Any details specifying how, explained, would probably lead to me unintentionally giving dishonor to anyone else.

[Imp]

Tiruin:

I get a niggling feeling about her

It's possible you -always- will.  Always.  There's an 'evil' called up by games of this sort, at least potentially.  I have a lot of 'potentials'.  Not 'potential' - potentials.  I 'could be this, could be that' quite easily.  I'm a transmute, a metamorph, inside myself.  I'm a fractured mind, a multiple personality.  And an eager mirror, you show me you and I'll show you 'you' right back.  Despite that, I'm highly functional; I can easily hold a job for years, easily complete classes, easily remember where I live, where I parked my car and what I've said I'd do each day, and I conscientiously learn and obey the laws and rules of what I must or choose to participate in (rules of a game, laws of the land.... the difference is only in punishment for breaking any, and how likely each is to be enforced).  What I might not be is the same 'person' over time, heck, most of them time I'm probably better described as a crowd.  And some of the crowd is exactly the sort that people meet once in dark alleys, once because there isn't exactly a chance for twice after that once.  It's quite useful to be so for me - after all, one of the best ways to survive meeting one of those people who hunt the alleys is to have in your head a small pack of that sort of people.  It's worked for me at least.

..Though I did not like the note on 'scum, please kill me!' -- it didn't come off as goading back then. Something to refrain from saying, if town or scum. I..would probably not want to discuss how that works with me as I guess the effect others would interpret it as is subjective, but..as a player, I don't think that's a reasonable way to say stuff (despite it being a rant) :s

I guess it belongs in the category of 'rant'.

For now only those who are Scum know if I was Scum or Town when I said this:

Scum, should you not be totally idle and ignoring this thread; we're going to N2 (maybe).  You've got a night kill.  Be merciful.  I think I'm suffering more than anyone here.  Do me a favor, mmm?  End my pain.  Removing me as a living player: if the game does not get cancelled, that is the fastest way out of this game for me.

However I will tell you, now and later (should you ask again) that what I said was not a 'goad' in the sense of a challenge, a dare, a trick.

I was not talking to Town, other than that both Scum and Town read this thread.

Town reading it or not was inconsequential to me.  What I typed was not a goad, it was a request.  I meant every word I typed.  I meant every word I typed above it too.

I almost cannot bring myself to express or explain my emotions remembered as I recall that post.  To say that this game has 'Effed with my head' in more ways than one is accurate - I'm choosing not to try and explain what I felt then, and why.

Some of it's older than this thread anyway, older than some of the people who play here.  I have a dark past, I've faced a lot of 'bad tricks'.  This game seems to touch certain things in me, certain ways some people play seem to affect me 'more than you'd think'.  That's not all bad.

Possibly because I almost reflexively open my mind to try and reach to the other players to 'better understand each'.  I may or may not imagine I have reached them - but I sure have opened my mind.  It's closed for my own good, most of the time.  Hostile touch is hostile.

However, there's players with class too.  I'm pretty much a mirror, long as there's some good to reflect too I'm not going to head off to any major psychological extremes.

So, about a reasonable way to say stuff, or something.  What I -meant- was 'I am done with this bleeping game.  My last nerve has been cut, my last hope has been dashed, I'm done feeling betrayed and I'm done seeing the rule spat on.  Get me out of here.  Now.'

It's about two-three small steps away from saying 'bleep this game, bleep these players, bleep the time I wasted here, bleep the bleep I tolerated from the bleep I played beside'.  However, I don't agree I was ranting.  I do however possess close to 0 tolerance of bullying, and it's an odd circumstance indeed that involves me tolerating, at any time and in any way, observation or interaction with such.  If it's on TV, I turn the TV off.  If it's in a story, I close the book.  If it's in real life, be me the target or not, I -stop- the bully, sometimes scaring them severely in the process.

And perhaps, to you, there's no right way to say what I intended to say, which was, literally and sincerely within the limits of this game - 'It's time, I'm ready, I'm done.  Kill me.'

...Y'know I am in favor of what Imp's proposal is given that notion (player is favoring to be replaced due to probably external factors).

just cancel the game, do role flips, open the chats

*eyeroll*  Now you're just teasing, right?  I haven't -stopped- being in favor of this game ending.  I feel some weird 'something', guilt maybe and confusion certainly about Kleril thinking that ending the game would be -cheating-.  Bizarre.  Incomprehensible.  Except he was the player that talked about faith in me and all the rest he said.  Kleril, I ain't god and I'm too newbie to even be good.  This is a real -mess- to try and sort through and even down to only -two- to pick between I'm not sure I can find you a win.

Otherwise I don't understand 'cheating' as a result of 'the game should have been stopped a long time ago'.  But I can say that I've learned enough that I don't think I'd work to off a player such as yourself on a D1, even if we looked at each other and 'it happened again' - that player walked off with their trust and mine and I walked off with my suspicion and theirs.  Or whatever the heck happened that weird time back on D1.  And for sure I'm not going to 'hit' people like yourself that hard again in these games.  Other people not like yourself, maybe.

Imp: Have I missed anything which you'd like to ask me?

Sort of.  But that's because I haven't asked it yet.

Aha.  Here's how I'll ask.

Explain to me your 'mindset' when you joined this game, what your intentions were then.  No really - what did you intend to do in your play, both D2, early D3, mid D3, and late D3.  Explain to me too now your 'mindset' as you play this game, what your intentions are now.

[Squill]

Sorry, too busy to post today.

[Imp]

Sorry, too busy to post today.

From this, it appears we need an extension?

[zombie urist]

Day ends Friday Nomeber 22nd 9 PM PST.

Imp -
squill - Tiruin
Tiruin -

Not voting - squill, Imp

1 to extend, 2 needed
0 to shorten, 2 needed

[Tiruin]

Sorry, too busy to post today.

From this, it appears we need an extension?

Yay Squill!

Extend it up!