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[Persus13]

-snip-

Sorry, but you to be confusing my question.

My quuestion was this:

why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC?

First of, I'm referring to the first piece of the part of the Behemoth where you lay out your argument against Kleril and his links to SBC. Specifically THE FIRST REASON you attack Kleril:

1)   He was the first to speak of something odd about Superblackcat’s unusual first post, saying “Interesting choice of pronoun there, bud. There something we should know?”  Kleril never followed up on this – never even answered Mr.Zero’s “Even though you asked a little bit more than blackcat, you didn't actively pursue this. Why so? Aren't you curious?”

You start off by mentioning a case of buddying, and by focusing on the fact that kleril didn't follow up about it, are implying it's buddying insteead of an accusation or an attack. Now the post where I asked this question was here:

My current take on 'others buddying me'... as well as on 'me buddying others':]

I don't protest players getting chummy with me (yet - I may learn to, but for now I believe I can use it just like I can use any other interaction).

So if you don't have problems with buddying why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC? Also, what's your opinion of Mr. Zero's odd accusation of SBC buddying Kleril but, as I pointed out earlier, when you look at the context seems more understandable?(as I do here).

If you notice, you took my question out of context since I was relating a piece of your argument to kleril to what you had stated your stance on buddying was, and then pointing out something I regarded as an odd buddying accusation by another player you said you agreed with given your stance of buddying. While your answer helped answer part of my question, it didn't completely answer it and got some facts wrong because you answered it out of context.

[Superblackcat]

MrZero, If you take the time of that post, and subtract the last of your post that was not "OH NOES MY POST GOT EATEN" you get 3 days . I had not been able to thank you for returning until then. So i thanked you then.

[Superblackcat]

@ Squill, Thanks for the clarification, I thought you meant I was sucking up to him.

[kleril]

Throwing down a request for an extend due to impending midterms. Should have a ton of time this weekend to address everything that's happened in the past day or two.

[Darvi]

@Darvi: I've noticed you've been voting people who have been attacking Kleril. This to try and scare off those trying to lynch your scum-buddy? Cause Squill may be bandwagoning, but he does seem to have some valid points. Also, there any special scum tells for ICs? Any previous games you'd recommend for someone interested in getting a read on your playstyle? Also, why are people making such a big deal about the Scum IC? He's not a behind the scenes puppeteer or anything right?

I'm not voting for people who suspect kleril. Not intentional that is, because, as you'll find, almost everybody (well, at least half of them) in the game has a bone to pick with it, so it's nearly inevitable . (Also, I never made that connection, but that's neither here nor there).

I'm not saying that it's a coincidence, though. Scum like an easy lynch, which it undoubtedly is. Much less work for them to do. Unfortunately, other peoples also like easy lynches, so you have to look at how they go about these votes. Scum gets lazy and complacent when they get an easy lynch, which is what I was judging people by. Imp got too sure of its scumpicks, as if it was not going to budge on its decisions, to the point of barely paying attention to other players. Squill, on the other hand, tried suggesting lynching kleril for what basically amounts to "lets lynch it and see what happens", which pushed it from "unhelpful" to "scummy". I also noticed that he said the same thing earlier, while saying that he wasn't sure kleril was scum. While things may have changed, it's highly likely it doesn't vote kleril because it thinks it's scum, but because they just want to see it hang.

Darvi, how the heck are we supposed to catch a squiggle such as yourself if you need catching?

You figure it out. Try a better net. Maybe a bait? They say honey is better than vinegar, but I love the stuff. I really dunno, I never tried to catch a Darvi. Usually I jus' kill 'em on sight.

Pick between Magnificent Bastard and Affable Evil – which one’s less like you and what are you doing to fix this?

The latter. I only do evil if it benefits me, there's nothing affable about me, and I don't plan on changing that. What is the point of this question anyway?

Persus13’s interaction with us all, he sure seems to be quite a few things to me.  What direction(s) do you think his playstyle is leading us towards?  Do you think he seems to be a leader?

I don't think. That much, at the least, should be known by now. And I do hope it doesn't become a leader. Because that requires everybody else to be sheeple, and everybody playing after one person's fiddle only results in scumwins because manipulating town is what scum does. You're individuals and you should behave that way, dammit.

@Darvi, I doesn't make sense to me that they would be partners. There is no point for either of them to Bus each other. But Both of them are very scummy in my eyes.

That is a problem. They cannot be both scum and not be partners. So you better try to get your reads straight because as it is now, should one of them flip as scum, it looks like you will dismiss the other one as town because it didn't look like the other guy's partner.

I suggest you drop the assumption that they cannot be partners. You should judge them by their individual scumminess, not by how you think they're connected. Which, I assume, is a point I already made before. You cannot make assumptions that scum wouldn't be willing to bus each other.

Also, as Persus said, Why do you support kleril so? Does he not seem scummy with his more current posts? If not, why? If so, why are you supporting him?

I do not support it, I am giving other people shit for stuff they did. See above.

Also, Why did you not respond to anything kleril said, even though I would say, are much more worthy of response than most of the things you responded to?

I try not to respond to stuff that doesn't directly involve me and that I don't feel require an immediate response on my part i.e. stuff that not everybody else is already nattering about. With eight people, it gets easy to get lost in the clusterfuck, and with how long it takes writing my posts, I try to not waste more time than necessary. Which is why most of my interactions have been with you and Imp, with the occasional oddball towards others who happen to stand out. Which, in turn, often have been people who have committed obvious faux-pas, I guess. I'm trying to stay focused on ICing, after all.
Also, the entire argument is just a blurry mess to me, where one side shouts at the other incoherently because they're utterly convinced they're in the right (Much like politics, really.), so I haven't really paid attention to it. I figured I'd save that for day 2 when the field's cleared up a bit.

So, you say it's scummy, so obviously you have been paying attention to it. Please enlighten me and tell me where it was being scummy and how.

I'm not quite sure I follow. Could you maybe restate some of the wording from the second post? While I don't think SBC's in the best light, I was stating that kleril used what seemed to me like faulty logic. It looks very much to me that kleril was put under pressure, and cracked and tried to pass on as much suspicion as possible to the person who was the second highest suspicion wise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't actually stating that SBC's is trying to suck up to kleril. I was saying that if SBC was trying to pretend to be overly friendly to kleril, that doesn't change the fact that kleril has been scummy, it is just a bit more evidence against SBC if kleril turned out to be right.

This seems like a sound argument to me, could you actually explain how it's not?

I didn't talk about your argument. I was talking about that one assumption that is wrong because town doesn't need to get lynched or killed to let the other person look bad. It does that to itself, usually. And either way, only because somebody flips town doesn't mean that everybody opposing them looks scummy. You can look better for lynching scum (if it wasn't an obvious bus), but lynching town can just as well simply be bad playing. TL;DR I wasn't arguing, I was pointing out how that was a faulty statement. I guess I should have put that in my [IC voice], because that was mostly intended to be informative, and you really shouldn't judge somebody by the town alignment of their targets.

@ SBC and @Darvi: I do not see kleril's view on SBC's behavior, I'm just saying that even if kleril's view was as obvious as he says, his logic is still faulted. This was a largely hypothetical scenario, at least to me.

I never addressed kleril's logic, or argued against your interpretation of it. Except perhaps for the part that assumes that the other person's townness had any influence on the outcome.

Throwing down a request for an extend due to impending midterms. Should have a ton of time this weekend to address everything that's happened in the past day or two.

Hasn't this game been extended, like, ten times already?

[Squill]

Squill, on the other hand, tried suggesting lynching kleril for what basically amounts to "lets lynch it and see what happens", which pushed it from "unhelpful" to "scummy". I also noticed that he said the same thing earlier, while saying that he wasn't sure kleril was scum. While things may have changed, it's highly likely it doesn't vote kleril because it thinks it's scum, but because they just want to see it hang.

I didn't do it to "see what happens." This post just struck me as particularly scummy, and I was convinced where I wasn't before. If that does not seem scummy to you, then could you tell me why?

[Rolepgeek]

No...no, no, shit, I can't do it. I can't get the time and I'm getting too emotional to play. Well, that, and I can't get into the right mindset. I can't look deeply into posts, all I can do is stare at them. It's frustrating. I'm gonna have to ask for a replacement, sorry guys. Should have done this a while ago. I'll still answer questions and such, I just...I can't work up the motivation. Sorry. Unvote.

I think I'll try to play Mafia when I don't have other games going on too. Should help me settle in one mindset and stay there.

To answer the questions directed at me real quick, though:

Top Towns and FoSs were, like I said, preliminary. I had said Mr. Zero because at the time I thought I'd spotted a post he'd made that had raised my hackles, but I can't find it now. And I can't get a good FoS anymore because of what I said above. I can't actually READ the posts in the right way. I'm not making connections and piecing it together in my head, probably because I was gone for so long. Not even sure about Imp anymore because as I've been scanning back and forth, she's not asking asinine questions anymore or taking things out of context(nowhere near as much, at least; the quote-editing she does is still frustrating). Right now...from what I remember, Squill because of how lurky he's been, little content in his posts when he does, what Darvi said about the kleril lynch, and not trying to ask many questions or pressure new people. And nnnnnnn...superblackcat. Holy crap, I just realized. The post he had right before mine was the one I thought was Mr Zero's. Probably. I can't really tell, and I thought it had been on page 15. Certainly looks scummy to me though;

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Congratulations kleril, you just left Imp in the dust on the Scum-o-meter.

If you have bothered to read about 3 of my posts, you would see that first, There was NO buddying done towards you, in fact... I argued SEVERELY against any buddying. Second, "I agree with kleril" was indeed very vague, and was cleared up through atleast 3 posts containing the SAME information because I didn't think some people saw it through walls of text. Third, I did not think you were scum, until you replied to the behemoth, and even then, I defended you because I saw that a lot of the accusations had to do with ME acting scummy at the beginning of the game. I then attacked MrZ because of his pure lack of reasoning, and how easily he accepted things others said. As much as I like other people's opinions, I take them all with a grain of salt, he embraced Imp's without any restriction.

That made me think you were scummy, then you continue on to "I'm sorry I've been scummy, it's inexcusable but you guys are wrong thinking I am scummy, in fact, lets just make this all SBC's fault, and vote MrZ". I supported you because you made a lot of the mistakes I made at the beginning, I continued to support you after you attacked me, because it was a valid option, even if you were town, to get yourself out of the predicament. Sadly, I don't support you anymore. I am very tempted to vote you instead of MrZ, but let's see how this plays out.

Next, What is your reason's for voting MrZ? Blowing off one question? He already said he had stuff written up, but it got deleted. It seems like you aren't even taking the time to SKIM through all the posts. Sadly, I do kind of believe Imp that you are scum.
 

On Squill: he was my top town pick, because as Imp said with MrZero, he was mostly down the middle of the line. He said nothing that was actually scummy, and seemed like a mostly busy, putting some thought into it, but not too much, mafia player.


@Darvi, I've already convinced myself of both kleril and MrZero, but I don't think they are partners, which makes my life difficult. I'm still keeping an eye out to see who is more scummy.

My second question was more of a "troll" question in hopes of one of the mafia leaking a "yes".


I agree that stats are not insanely important. But at some point, it's important, and even though people may say "math is a distraction" if you do the mathematically correct way, usually you would win, more often than you would lose.
I believe that the way Luke talked should not be put against persus. Luke's way of talking, because of how overwhelmed he was, could signify that he was either town of scum.

IF I missed anything, could you guys please repost the question, or lead me to it. I think I hit everything, but I could've mis-skimed something.

The interactions with SBC seem like he's really attempting to distance himself and reacting very negatively to being accused of being scum. Town doesn't care about being lynched, as long as they can help find scum. Scum cares. And then, somewhat contrary from what I can see, acts as though Klerils's vote for Mr Zero is a scumtell, whilst simultaneously giving his personal reasons for voting him. And then the 'convinced myself' comment. I hate to rag on semantics, but that just seems like a bad thing to do; ending up focused on just two people without considering others, and believing wholy that they are the scum.
By the way, that's what I meant when I said I was suspicious of everyone. I know I'm very fallible, so I try to keep an open mind as to who's the scum.
Top town...Deathsword, I think, still, since his posts have plenty of good activity and scum-hunting from what I can tell when he posts, and Darvi, I think, for similar reasons, though he's more active. May be that he fits my definition of scum-hunting better is all, though.

Other responses.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Answer: Because you aren't the person I am/was trying to pressure. I was trying to pressure Imp, to get him to do a good play instead of active-lurking like it had appeared he had been(and still may be). And I only have me vote to pressure people with!

That sounds like a lazy excuse for tunneling.

Top scum is actually Mr. Zero now, since I haven't been able to skim Imp's easily now that he's spoilered them. Right next to Imp, right up there. Deathsword and Persus are preliminary town thoughts, but I'm basically suspicious of everyone right now. You all feel scummy in some we or another. That's all for tonight, folks.

What suspicions do you have against Mr.Z? Is Imp's behaviour from back then still reason enough to think it this suspicious? Why are these two town? And that last bit smells like vague handwaving. "Yeah I guess you're ALL suspicious. Somehow. I don't have anything better to say really." I can tell that's the case because it directly contradicts your town-picks right before.

I hope I answered the latter question a bit better up above. The former question, I would have to agree with that, but that's not what it is. It's a lazy excuse for me being lazy. If I was more active, like I was last game, I would hope to be dealing with at least 4-5 people and pressuring them. But basically, the reason is that I wanted to have pressure on Imp more than words, since she can obviously handle that pressure just fine, and return it in kind.

@All things Rolepgeek:

I'm not tempted to pick this apart line by line and 'feed it to you'.  I'll keep my comments as vague, polite, and short as I can without risking losing their meaning.

It was pretty impolite. So was mine, to a point, and I apologize for that, but yours was quite a bit worse.

Huh. Thought there'd be more questions.

[Rolepgeek:  Why?  You think anyone else really wants to talk to your attitude, or because of it, you?[/size]

No. I thought there'd be more questions because I figured people would rag on me more for not being active enough.

Oh, and it got me pissed off as a player(OOC, so to speak) about how he was talking to Lukeinator. HEY IMP; don't tell people not to play the fucking game because you think they're playing badly. That's the point of a goddamn beginner's mafia.

Rolepgeek:  I quoted the OP and then applied portions of it that were being ignored by that player with pressure.  First time that's been done in a Mafia game, to your knowledge?

It was in your behemoth. The part dedicated to Luke. Where you were calling him childish, or implying it at the very least? Saying he shouldn't play until he's more mature? That is what I disliked. That is what I was calling you out on. Not the suggestion to ask for a replacement if he can't play.

Feces, fool.  If you're going to tunnel on me, despite...

Mostly Imp because he's been annoying me and as you could probably guess, I haven't been paying as much attention to the game as I'd like. Now that I've set myself on doing this

...at least attempt to use an illusion of scum hunting, rather than 'Imp makes me annoyed, whaa, so I'm going to use him as a verbal punching bag while occasionally interlacing my personal attacks with references to Scumhunting while occasionally admitting I'm just here to kick people around and otherwise not really paying much attention'.

Yawn.  In case my intentions towards Luke and Squill were opaque, it's sometimes called pressure.  My goal was not to drive either from the game (though I did know we had an apparently eager-to-play replacement who I happened to already know I wanted to be in a/many game(s) with, thus this would not be a particularly unfortunate result in my sights should it occur).  I used most of the tricks I know to attempt to increase interaction with and from both of those initially massively lurking players, 'spending' significant time and effort on this goal and releasing that pressure when it was achieved (in Squill's case) or I realized my goal was unachievable (Luke).  And I believe I did so in a highly pro-Town and 'least harmful for Mafia the Game overall and its current and hopefully returning someday players' fashion as well.  I deem this responsible play.

It seems interesting that Rolepgeek may be protesting, in this one area, only my aggressive, hostile tone combined with the pressure I used.  *snort*

Rolepgeek:  Pot calling the kettle black, much?  Got any cleaner glasses to see this game through?  Any of them happen to be rose colored?

Curious. You, for whatever reason, leave out the last part of the sentence. Mostly because it provides context, since I was in fact referring to setting myself on trying to be active in the game, not on some idea of tunneling. Again, my problem wasn't with the pressure, it was with the insults. Kinda like how you're insulting me now. Passively and actively alike.

Oh wait! Darvi's question as to why I'm not voting him.
Answer: Because you aren't the person I am/was trying to pressure. I was trying to pressure Imp, to get him to do a good play instead of active-lurking like it had appeared he had been(and still may be). And I only have me vote to pressure people with!

Rolepgeek: Lie much?  Words don't pressure?  Your intense and intensely focused hostility is not actually a form of pressure to you?  Have you had your blood pressure checked recently, or are you afraid that visiting a doctor would raise questions about possible drug abuse?

Hey look insults about my OOC behavior hurrah! No. It's called additional pressure.

continued tomorrow

[Superblackcat]

Darvi, Who do you find the most scummy? Second scummy? Can you list everyone? (Including, not including yourself, I don't care)

Also, I can see that they could be partners, But if they are, they pushed it too far, and they brought it out too early.

@RPG. I don't vote people for voting others, I vote people for their reasons for voting others.

[Imp]

Hey all!  My posts are later than normal because extra sleep was needed.  Thursday is my most time-pressured day, in terms of minimal computer access.  From about noon to about 8:30 PM PST I'll probably have no computer access.  We're currently set for D1 end at 9 PM tonight, with 3 votes for extend - Imp, Superblackcat, and Kleril.

Darvi talks about extensions:

Hasn't this game been extended, like, ten times already?

It hasn't.  If we extend again, this'll be the 5th, and one of those first 4 was a mod extend.  Linksies for proofies, spoiled for brevity.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Day 1 has begun!Day 1 will end Friday, September 27th at 9 PM.

Day 1 extended to 9 PM PST, Tuesday October 1st.

DAY MOD-EXTENDED
Day 1 will end Tuesday, October 2nd at 9 PM.

Day has been extended to Monday, October 7th at 9 PM.

Day has been extended to Thursday October 10th 9PM PST. I have another midterm on Wednesday so this extension is longer.

Working in reverse order, and yeah, disregarding Rolepgeek's response for now because I don't think I can effectively scumhunt regarding him atm, or that what he's doing is scumhunting either:

Persus13 has asked this of me most recently:


That portion of Behemoth is subtitled,

This is my assessment of Kleril, and his links to Superblackcat:

The first portion that I describe is not buddying - if it is anything that shows a link between Kleril and SBC, then this is distancing.  Kleril's not speaking supportively of SBC.  Instead he comments on something he says looks suspicious, then drops the topic despite pressure to probe further.

Keep in mind - this 'link' between them is the weakest of all possible 'evidence' chains.  To me, the strongest piece of evidence for their buddying comes from what SBC said about Kleril and how he said it in his top FOS/Town post, followed by the nearly simultaneous tone change shown by posts made by SBC and Kleril only 2 hours apart (SBC's top picks, Kleril's change from vote Imp to support Imp), and most weakly by the second post Kleril made, which could be distancing himself from SBC.

That Persus13 says 'Kleril buddying SBC is my first point' helps me understand that I've explained my concerns very poorly.  Kleril looks like Scum to me all by himself  without any links to SBC that may or may not also exist.  SBC also looked super Scummy (but not as) and so I looked for possible links.

Note Darvi points out this is something I should have saved for later -

you shouldn't judge people by whatever link you see between them. Save that for if one of them flips scum.

Though he does say this in player voice, not {IC}.

Now back to:

Specifically THE FIRST REASON you attack Kleril:

You're right about the beginning of my first point, but wrong about what I meant to express as my interpretation - kinda like 'That jaywalker stole the lady's purse!' - even thought the subject of the sentence is descriptive of one thing, "jaywalking", the issue is "thief".

So here's a hopefully quite clear list of why I highly suspect Kleril as Scum.... Persus13, back to you again after I do so - it'll be next post...

Strong reason:  I believe he lied about the thought process he claimed about why he saw my vote on Deathsword as bandwagoning.  I believe this because I tried to see how he could have made the mistake he claims,

I screwed up and thought the vote Deathsword had placed was in fact a vote against him, and so when you voted for him after his, I thought you were placing a second vote against him.

And following the posts, including the votecount, which is what confused -me- originally, I cannot see what Kleril even could have been thinking to draw this conclusion for true reasons.  But Kleril says the issue isn't the votecount - in fact he says in his defense,

Every time I passed by one of the mod posts, I would raise an eyebrow, but not much came of it until you all started giving me hell for it.

3) It's day one, and where votes have been placed has been established as more of a scumhunting tool than anything. Using the votecount alone, and not the posts to justify them, is useless.

So Kleril did narrow the source of his confusion - it's not votecounts.  Somehow, in the posts made between start of play and his statement of suspicion of my jumping on a bandwagon against Deathsword - there's only 23 posts, including OP and one votecount.

Now - I was confused about the exact same thing Kleril later claims to be confused by.  I posted about it immediately, as soon as I saw the first votecount.  My question was answered, an explanation of how to understand votes and read the votecount was provided.


Thus my identification of Kleril as a liar, and thus Scum.  I believe Kleril had no desire to vote for me, but pressure placed upon him from other players made him decided he'd better or he'd look too bad.  I believe it was something of a panicked choice, because he'd already made two other'you look scummy' soft accusations and was getting heat about two of the three, and that heat included a vote from Deathsword.  I believe he felt it made sense to press his vote on me, because he'd said his closest to strong (and most recent) accusation about me.  I challenged his logic and he unvoted and started his 'I'm certain you're Town' gambit.  When pressed further about failure to answer questions and explain his reasoning, he responds with having figured out why what he did wasn't making sense - he was wrong.  I believe he picked that to lie about because I'd posted of making that same mistake real life days before, so I'd probably believe him pretty easily.  I would, too, if I could find a reasonable evidence chain that is supported by all the things he said before and after - which by the way, is why I DO believe Superblackcat about his 'I thought there were 7 players' claim. (doesn't mean Cat is not scum, but I believe that was not a lie).

There's a lot of secondary supportive evidence, from how he talks and how he shows his thinking... hey, I'll just point out this from one post -

I'm not sure if it's the smart thing to do, but I think you deserve an Unvote.

Imp, I do not believe that you are scum. Really, you have me completely convinced that you are town

Look at them waffles!  If he doesn't believe I'm Scum, if he's completely convinced I'm Town - why isn't it a smart thing to do to unvote?  Oh, because he's not sure he can find a path through this that doesn't make him look like Scum.  And his attention's there because he is Scum, far more than it is on Scumhunting, because he isn't, he's just trying to look like he is.

[Imp]

My current take on 'others buddying me'... as well as on 'me buddying others':]

I don't protest players getting chummy with me (yet - I may learn to, but for now I believe I can use it just like I can use any other interaction).

So if you don't have problems with buddying why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC?

Answered more fully here, to sum up, you misunderstood me/I explained poorly, and what you highlight shows distancing (link) not buddying (link) if it shows any link at all.

Also, what's your opinion of Mr. Zero's odd accusation of SBC buddying Kleril but, as I pointed out earlier, when you look at the context seems more understandable?(as I do here).

My opinion of Mr.Zero's words:  He means what he says.  He sees that as buddying from SBC (regardless of Kleril's role, I have to assume because Zero has not stated his opinion of that).  He sees a ton of scummy stuff from SBC, this is yet more, and that is his point.

My opinion of your words:  I think you're more than 95% likely to be correct in how you assess SBC's answer, to be a response to Kleril's question that you bolded.  Taken in that context, I see reason for Cat to say it, and to say it exactly with the words he did.  I do worry about Cat's faith in Cops/roleblockers - we don't know for sure that we have a cop or a roleblocker in the game on the town side.  We got one, maybe both, but it could be either, and I'm very, very leery of basing plans on hope.  Heck, I'm not even basing any of my plans on the 'hope' of being in play come D2.

My opinion of this, over all:  I think Zero's focused too tightly on Cat and Cat's scumminess.  Presuming that Zero is Town, I would like Zero to be more focused on Scum, rather than scumminess, and upon trying to find that fine line between the two, as I intend to try and find.  Why don't I say so earlier:  Busy with other things and considered this an interesting way to examine Mr.Zero's motives and methods, and further examine Cat's as well in interaction.  Zero has played pretty solidly Town overall, enough that I'm going to have to use 'other things' like what I can see of the depth of his thought and his motives and methods over time to feel him out.

My biggest sadness about him is that he doesn't appear to prefer to hunt deeply for 'why'.  Biggest example: 'why' Cat makes a believable 'I thought there were 7 players'; Zero hasn't even looked, I believe with about 85% certainty.  But that's a null-tell to my mind, and I'd like to watch more of it so I have something better to judge.

[Imp]

Persus13:

Imp: Now that Kleril seems to be attacking SBC do you think that they're trying to bus SBC or you were just incorrect about the two being scumbuddies?

I think Kleril's still showing himself to be Scum.  His reaction to pressure is interesting, but the main way he trapped himself he hasn't explained in a way I find even slightly believable.  (Maybe he hasn't had enough time yet.  I only started asking about it on the first of this month, and I'm not adverse to hearing his defense if he has one yet).

I think it might make good sense to Kleril; if I/we think they both are Scum and he knows SBC is not - if he can get us to lynch SBC first and see that Cat is Town after all, then that might look very very tempting to Kleril, to support a 'wrong about us both, see!' defense to make on D2.

I am not convinced that Cat isn't Scum, however Cat's doing a great job convincing me that he may very well be Town and just unable to avoid looking seriously Scummy yet.

@Rolepgeek, no answers as of now.  I don't really have time left to talk to you now, I don't want to in either case, and with luck one of us won't be here come D2 so I'll never have to.  If we're both alive and you haven't been replaced yet, I suppose we might have to interact again then.

@Darvi - Point of question, I never RVSed you, somehow during start of play was like you weren't even here or something.  Missed my chance, realized it, took it then.  I'll use it somehow, perhaps for a feel to weigh other things against, if opportunity allows.

@Superblackcat - Still like you, be you Scum or Town.  Only advice for you now:  Don't let yourself get caught into petty.  Like that 3 days thing... remember weekends don't count against someone, if they don't post (but I say weekends count for someone if they do).  Weekends are time off.  Double check Mr.Zero's post times if you must - but he's FAR from the lurkiest of us.  I think you're putting too much weight on the feel of anyone attacking you (right or wrong) being Scum, and far too little attention on everything else going on.  Forgiven, just hope you buck that trend soon.  DO go for people that attack you (and everyone else) but do so with as much thought as you do emotion, if not more.  This is NOT to say that I think Zero's Town, though he has been on my 'not very scummy' list most of the game.

About this question of yours:

Secondly, You are telling me not to focus only on you (And frankly, I haven't) But they you continue to focus, solely, on me and kleril. Might I ask what is this contradiction doing?

I agree you haven't.  I disagree about my focus, but agree my POSTS have been highly focused on you and Kleril.  Swung me around to 'not proof' about you.  Hasn't changed my opinion of Kleril yet.  Everyone else mostly, just watching.  It's hard work to multitask, for me too.

@Mr.Zero:  I don't have advice for you.  I think you're playing pretty strong, you have weaknesses and a good head on your shoulders.  I do hope that everyone remembers that should I be proved Town at some point, that doesn't clear you because you obviously weren't my scumbuddy that I don't have.

About Persus13:  As I see it, Persus is doing everything right - he is not scummy at all - except!  He has made multiple reference to his predecessor being Town.  I hate that because it's manipulative in some very subtle ways.  Additionally he makes the claim that he felt that way about Luke because of what I said - I'm not sure that is a lie, but did I ever, EVER say Luke was town, even when I was saying we shouldn't lynch Luke?  NO.  Even in Behemoth I say that Luke is third scummiest to me - and of course, if there's two other scum, that means he can't be Scum.  Do not, please do not, take any proof that comes from me - be it my words, or from my flip should I die at any point - to have ANY bearing on Persus's possible innocence.  The one thing Persus has done that looks scummy to me is to suggest that he's town because Luke was town.  That was NEVER established, and seems deeply manipulative to say.  So especially remember please, should I end up proved to be Town, that says NOTHING about Persus13 being Town or not - and I do NOT support anything that says that Luke was Town.

To everyone else, and to all, if you wanted me to answer something and I still haven't, I missed it; ask again and if an extension or miracle of schedule juggling allows you'll get your answer.  Otherwise, good luck all, good play all, and maybe see most of y'all D2!

[Imp]

Oh man.  Well, off to school I go.  Final words until RIGHT before D1 end, unless I get more computer access than I expect, or another extend happens:

Looks to me like this is our current board.

Squill, 1 vote - Darvi
Superblackcat, 2 votes - Deathsword, Mr.Zero
Kleril, 2 votes - Imp, Squill
Mr.Zero, 2 votes - Kleril, Superblackcat
Darvi, 1 vote - Persus13

Not voting: Rolepgeek

Look-look well, oh wolves.  Remember that tie=No lynch, and use that in your decisionmaking should you choose.

[Persus13]

Mod Question: Is an extension happening or not? and if there are say three votes to extend and one to shorten does that do anything?

Spoiler: Response to FOS (click to show/hide)

About Persus13:  As I see it, Persus is doing everything right - he is not scummy at all - except!  He has made multiple reference to his predecessor being Town.  I hate that because it's manipulative in some very subtle ways.  Additionally he makes the claim that he felt that way about Luke because of what I said - I'm not sure that is a lie, but did I ever, EVER say Luke was town, even when I was saying we shouldn't lynch Luke?  NO.  Even in Behemoth I say that Luke is third scummiest to me - and of course, if there's two other scum, that means he can't be Scum.  Do not, please do not, take any proof that comes from me - be it my words, or from my flip should I die at any point - to have ANY bearing on Persus's possible innocence.  The one thing Persus has done that looks scummy to me is to suggest that he's town because Luke was town.  That was NEVER established, and seems deeply manipulative to say.  So especially remember please, should I end up proved to be Town, that says NOTHING about Persus13 being Town or not - and I do NOT support anything that says that Luke was Town.

Well, first of I don't want to talk about my predecessor as he isn't playing anymore and isn't important. However my judgement of Luke was when I wasn't playing. Not only did I view Luke as town, I viewed EVERYONE as town and didn't really think about who was scum and who wasn't. I just saw a bunch of players attacking a poor player. Now that I'm playing, my mindset has changed. And secondly, I felt that Luke was town because of parts of the Behemoth about how you think Luke may be a kid, which judging from what I've seen elsewhere on Bay12 seemed to be true and reinforced my perception of Luke as a poor town player not a poor scum player. I only answered your questions on why I thought Luke was town, because you asked, and several of those reasons are not valid now that I actually have an impact game-wise.

Also: Unvote on my Darvi pressure vote, and back to Kleril. Kleril managed to diffuse some of my suspicions and raise new ones in the same post, so I'm going to stick with voting for him.

At this point I'm going to have to agree with Darvi that not extending and going into Day 2 may be a good idea. The arguments are getting stale, and other than Rolepgeek most of the votes haven't shifted (besides mine, and that was a pressure vote).

[Darvi]

[Alright, this is the home stretch. The time for pressure votes is over, and you should put them on whomever you think is the most scummy asap.
You'll also notice that we have a three-way tie, which of course is a bad thing. So somebody will have to change their votes to one of these three. However, doing so carelessly will just look like bandwagoning, so consider your options. You should vote somebody who you think is suspicious and have said so earlier, as to give your vote credibility, and of course somebody who's part of the tie. Unvoting somebody who's part of the tie, however, is stupid, even if there weren't two other people upholding the tie. It indicates that you don't care about the lynchee, and that yoyu are willing to let your highest suspicion live in exchange for killing somebody who you think as less scummy. That is, naturally, not a town move. Mind you, that isn't the case if their new target is one of the tying votees.

Example:Imp stops voting kleril and votes, say, RPG instead. Even if that had broken the tie, it's still scummy since it lets its highest scumpick (kleril) live and condemns somebody else who is less scummy to Imp than either kleril or RPG (in this case, SBC or Mr.Z) to a lynch.
Example:Imp stops voting kleril and votes SBC instead. Provided it has had a case against SBC prior, that would not be scummy. It's basically a compromise, "He's not as scummy as kleril, but as you know I think SuperBlackCat is scummy too so I'm okay with breaking the tie by lynching him first".

This isn't meant to be representative of its actual opinions, naturally.


You can (and should) also still answer questions before the day ends. Even if you die, the others can (and should) still answer it on the next day, so at least the survivors have something to go on.]

Squill, on the other hand, tried suggesting lynching kleril for what basically amounts to "lets lynch it and see what happens", which pushed it from "unhelpful" to "scummy". I also noticed that he said the same thing earlier, while saying that he wasn't sure kleril was scum. While things may have changed, it's highly likely it doesn't vote kleril because it thinks it's scum, but because they just want to see it hang.

I didn't do it to "see what happens." This post just struck me as particularly scummy, and I was convinced where I wasn't before. If that does not seem scummy to you, then could you tell me why?

What a vague reply. Which part of that post is it that struck you as scummy?

Also I never said it didn't seem scummy. Stop putting words in my mouth. Fingers. Keyboard. Something. Thingy. Not since my very first post since way back.

I hope I answered the latter question a bit better up above. The former question, I would have to agree with that, but that's not what it is. It's a lazy excuse for me being lazy. If I was more active, like I was last game, I would hope to be dealing with at least 4-5 people and pressuring them. But basically, the reason is that I wanted to have pressure on Imp more than words, since she can obviously handle that pressure just fine, and return it in kind.

I'm not happy with that answer. Like, not at all. But I can tell you can't handle the stress and are unlikely to reply to anything so I guess I'll have to drop you for now.

Darvi, Who do you find the most scummy? Second scummy? Can you list everyone? (Including, not including yourself, I don't care)

Oh no you don't. You answer my question first:

So, you say it's scummy, so obviously you have been paying attention to it. Please enlighten me and tell me where it was being scummy and how.

Thus my identification of Kleril as a liar, and thus Scum.  I believe Kleril had no desire to vote for me, but pressure placed upon him from other players made him decided he'd better or he'd look too bad.  I believe it was something of a panicked choice, because he'd already made two other'you look scummy' soft accusations and was getting heat about two of the three, and that heat included a vote from Deathsword.  I believe he felt it made sense to press his vote on me, because he'd said his closest to strong (and most recent) accusation about me.  I challenged his logic and he unvoted and started his 'I'm certain you're Town' gambit.  When pressed further about failure to answer questions and explain his reasoning, he responds with having figured out why what he did wasn't making sense - he was wrong.  I believe he picked that to lie about because I'd posted of making that same mistake real life days before, so I'd probably believe him pretty easily.  I would, too, if I could find a reasonable evidence chain that is supported by all the things he said before and after - which by the way, is why I DO believe Superblackcat about his 'I thought there were 7 players' claim. (doesn't mean Cat is not scum, but I believe that was not a lie).

Thanks for that case of your summary against - I mean, that summary of your case against kleril. That was quite enlightening and I see why you vote for him.

That doesn't mean you don't get to answer, though, SBC.

@Darvi - Point of question, I never RVSed you, somehow during start of play was like you weren't even here or something.  Missed my chance, realized it, took it then.  I'll use it somehow, perhaps for a feel to weigh other things against, if opportunity allows.

You don't have to RV everybody. That is silly, pointless, and a waste of time and energy (of course, if you have time and energy to waste, go ahead. More questions is better than fewer question). Just make sure everybody in the game is covered, maybe with a preference for people whom you think would be good to get reactions from. The other players will hopefully be covered by somebody else. And either way, I joined what I felt was after the RVS anyway. Asking questions related to the game, or my starting post, should be enough.

I also noticed that I missed most of Perseus' questions.

Also, there any special scum tells for ICs?

No. The only thing you should take in mind that anything said in the IC's IC voice of choice should not be held for or against them, as that is strictly OOC and meant for everybody else to learn. Otherwise, we're just normal players. For a given value of normal.

Any previous games you'd recommend for someone interested in getting a read on your playstyle?

Lemme see. Town games, there's BYOR 7 and the literal Vanilla Mafia (that's one of my first games, but I haven't really improved since then) that I can remember (because one had me getting killed more often than Kenny, and the other apparently ended with me finding tru luv?

Scum games, on the other hand, were much more fun. I also haven't lost a single (fair) scum game that I've played to completion, like, ever. Case in point, RL Mafia 1 and 3.

Also, why are people making such a big deal about the Scum IC? He's not a behind the scenes puppeteer or anything right?

It shouldn't be. Thing is, SBC made some questions about the game regarding scumchat and stuff, which some people took the wrong way.

So, my current tally:
Squill is up there in terms of scumminess. I still don't like his attitude towards the kleril vote, and his early lurking isn't doing him any favours.
Mr.Z is even higher, but I never got to vote for him since I was busy with other people. This is because of his inconsistent reads and his failure to answer even after acknowledging that he's been asked a question.
Imp has worked to fix the issue I voted it with. Still keeping an eye on it, though.
I'm not happy with RPG, but it evidently isn't in a shape to play at the moment, so there's not a lot I can do about that.
Ditto with Sword, concerning his lack of activity. Again, not much I can do about it.
SBC is a case where I had to work a lot to get my point across, which mostly is due to its newbishness.

That all being said, Mr.Z is whose lynch I can live the most with, especially considering that SBC still has a pressure vote in it.

[Darvi]

Oh for crying out loud, Perseus. I am supposed to be the ninja hereabouts.

Voting Squill again. I wouldn't have switched votes had I noticed Perseus' post. [I could unvote, which would have the same effect on the lynch, but it does get a message across.]