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[Persus13]

Oh, can you include a link to the Lurker tracker in either the OP or in the vote-counts?

[Imp]

Posting from work, it's incomplete.  I'll say the rest later.

Hey everyone!  We’ve currently got about 2 days on the clock again.  This seems to be the point where I go from feeling ‘oh, we got time’ to thinking ‘oh, we don’t really got time’.  I’ve learned a heck of a lot recently.  Loving the overall change in activity level and a few people have commented they’re trying to catch up, so I’ll be the first this time to vote to Extend, instead of just offering to supporting others’ requests in this direction.

Darvi, how the heck are we supposed to catch a squiggle such as yourself if you need catching?

Pick between Magnificent Bastard and Affable Evil – which one’s less like you and what are you doing to fix this?

Persus13’s interaction with us all, he sure seems to be quite a few things to me.  What direction(s) do you think his playstyle is leading us towards?  Do you think he seems to be a leader?

[Rolepgeek]

Posting to show I'm not ignoring this. Put it off too long to be able to post it tonight, but I've got the post saved on my computer. Will finish it and post it tomorrow. It has all my answers and such, and more.

Unless one of you knows how to copy/paste from it to my IPad, of course.

[Superblackcat]

@MrZ

Spoiler Below is What MrZero's Post contained of.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 02:27:00 pm
Oh man, do I feel stupid. I thought this was a 7/2 game, and I just now, noticed this is a 9/2 game.

So now, let me clear things up. I only believe in the NL in a 7/2 game, as a 9/2 game, the chances of hitting a mafia is much higher, in a sense, because we get 2 days to lynch. Also, that means we can RL twice without much consequence.

Thus, I completely support Lynching today. Also, just saying, I don't think a 9/2 game is very balanced for the mafia.

You just did not. Looking at the game set-up is the first step of joining a Mafia, if it were in the beginning then sure. But a week or 2? have passed and you then say this... You shat on your shoe's. Washing it won't make the smell go away.

Also the underlined part.
Why would you say that? You wouldn't be bothered by it as town, i can see it as a good point in a Mafia-related discussion ( Not a mafia game) but it absolutely holds no value in the game itself.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 02:27:00 pm
@MrZero, I didn't vote you for giving your foses, I voted you for, as you can see in my post, not questioning anything Imp said.

I can't vote someone for... Not doing what I ask, I can for pulling out several scumtells when answering what I asked.

I'm pretty sure you didn't even read through my whole post, because you just pulled out tiny parts of it, and decided that was my whole post.

Lol, I like the underlined part as it applies to you as well on a more regular basis.

Quote from: Superblackcat on October 05, 2013, 02:27:00 pm
Quote
Quote from: Superblackcat on October 04, 2013, 06:50:46 pm
You seem to understand Imp very well... Might you be getting clarifications, or just frankly status updates with eachother... in a certain thing called Scum chat?

You two seems to be working together. It wasn't very apparent in the previous posts, but because of that post, I've noticed you guys have basically agreed on everything.

Totally, and you?
What do you mean by that? Do you agree that you guys are in Scum chat, Do explain exactly what you mean by "Totally and you?"

Also, what are you looking for me to answer.

Sarcasm and redirected the question at you, i should have put [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags in it as i forgot that it's hard to transfer sarcastic comments over the Internet.

Ok, It's quite easy for me to be confused, everytime I open this game, it says 7/7. I'm not used to ICs, There has never been ICs, in my life before this game. I thought there were 7 players. Sadly, this also means I never drew charts or anything with all the players in them.

Also, Except for the game before this one, every single game I've played thus far with 2 mafia, has been 7/2. I played a 9/2 game before this one on another forum. I was mafia, it was insanely sad that I won. As I'm good at math, and no matter how much you guys don't like math, It's there. There was over an 70% chance for town to win, if the cop outted day 2, town did not lynch anyone cop cleared, and town lynched scum when cop found scum. Otherwise, they mislynched, unless it was impossible. Of course the setup was different, cop could be protected by cop, no role seeker on mafia. I'm sure it will make this game a lot more balanced, but it was just an observation.

I have read every single post (except for Imp's long post with different fonts) after page 2, I mostly did not read page 1 or page 2.

You deflect an question that not applicable to me back to me without answering it? And as many other people pointed out... You deftly did NOT answer a lot of their questions.

If you would go through and answer them, or give us a good reason that you don't answer them... Well, I'm just going to say : ~Scummy~

No you have not answered every question, No there is too many for me to repost, Yes you can go back and find them.

@Imp, I will not torture my eyes to read through a long post with different sized fonts. I just won't. Please rewrite it or something, I can't stand it....

@Squill, Did you not read my post last page, or 2 pages ago, explaining why I supported kleril until now? (as you say, sucking up to him).

@Darvi, I doesn't make sense to me that they would be partners. There is no point for either of them to Bus each other. But Both of them are very scummy in my eyes.

Also, as Persus said, Why do you support kleril so? Does he not seem scummy with his more current posts? If not, why? If so, why are you supporting him?

Also, Why did you not respond to anything kleril said, even though I would say, are much more worthy of response than most of the things you responded to?

@Persus, I feel left out, I'm the only one you didn't talk to >: (

Why didn't you talk to me? Did you want me to hate you? ;-; ()

@RPG and MrZero , Hope you its get a lot more activity!

[Superblackcat]

Also. Extend

[Imp]

@Imp, I will not torture my eyes to read through a long post with different sized fonts. I just won't. Please rewrite it or something, I can't stand it....

Wow!  Gladly done.  And glad you asked for a rewrite, until then I'd just decided 'won't do that again', and never even thought that there'd be any reason for a rewrite. 

@All things not-Rolepgeek, namely 'Where's that promised analysis of Mr.Zero's posts'

I'm delaying sharing that for now, I prefer not to explain why yet.

I have two questions directed towards Mr.Zero that I'd like to see answers of before I provide that analysis.

Whether he answers or not I will be providing my analysis before D1 ends.

@All things Rolepgeek:

I'm not tempted to pick this apart line by line and 'feed it to you'.  I'll keep my comments as vague, polite, and short as I can without risking losing their meaning.

I really have no desire to talk -to- Rolepgeek.  I understand I should question more.  I'll do so, and I'll do it in size 14 font to make it distinct, but I'm talking about him, not to him, except for the stuff in that size font.  There, I feel slightly more comfortable now.

Said it before, say it again; I'll be pleased if anyone happens to want to take it upon themselves to do the scumhunting in regards to this so focusedly anti-imp player.

Then again,

Huh. Thought there'd be more questions.

Rolepgeek:  Why?  You think anyone else really wants to talk to your attitude, or because of it, you?

None of the rest of you want to, huh?  You're not waiting for later because of any reason other than that you'd rather not either?  Not like I can blame you.  Maybe that anti-imp just happens to be anti-all-with-imp-focus.  Would that be a scum-tell, to be so unpleasant that no one really wants to interact with you?

Now I'd like to write off my and his differences as 'very different playstyles' (and earlier had, because it's comforting and I do like my comforts), but that's not going to successfully Scumhunt, especially if he happens to be one of the Scum.  If I -must-, I will dig into the pit of... I'm not going to currently describe this/him, but I trust my meaning is clear enough.

Oh, and it got me pissed off as a player(OOC, so to speak) about how he was talking to Lukeinator. HEY IMP; don't tell people not to play the fucking game because you think they're playing badly. That's the point of a goddamn beginner's mafia.

Rolepgeek:  I quoted the OP and then applied portions of it that were being ignored by that player with pressure.  First time that's been done in a Mafia game, to your knowledge?

Why focus on my interactions in this direction with Luke?  Did you miss this, which happened -first-?

@Squill:

I'll make sure to do some questions at some point, but for now I'm just answering questions while I'm at my computer

We've heard nothing from you in over 48 hours.  Are you actually interested and able to play?  If not, why have you not already requested a replacement, especially since we have one handy and apparently eager to get into his/her first game?

Feces, fool.  If you're going to tunnel on me, despite...

Mostly Imp because he's been annoying me and as you could probably guess, I haven't been paying as much attention to the game as I'd like. Now that I've set myself on doing this

...at least attempt to use an illusion of scum hunting, rather than 'Imp makes me annoyed, whaa, so I'm going to use him as a verbal punching bag while occasionally interlacing my personal attacks with references to Scumhunting while occasionally admitting I'm just here to kick people around and otherwise not really paying much attention'.

Yawn.  In case my intentions towards Luke and Squill were opaque, it's sometimes called pressure.  My goal was not to drive either from the game (though I did know we had an apparently eager-to-play replacement who I happened to already know I wanted to be in a/many game(s) with, thus this would not be a particularly unfortunate result in my sights should it occur).  I used most of the tricks I know to attempt to increase interaction with and from both of those initially massively lurking players, 'spending' significant time and effort on this goal and releasing that pressure when it was achieved (in Squill's case) or I realized my goal was unachievable (Luke).  And I believe I did so in a highly pro-Town and 'least harmful for Mafia the Game overall and its current and hopefully returning someday players' fashion as well.  I deem this responsible play.

It seems interesting that Rolepgeek may be protesting, in this one area, only my aggressive, hostile tone combined with the pressure I used.  *snort*

Rolepgeek:  Pot calling the kettle black, much?  Got any cleaner glasses to see this game through?  Any of them happen to be rose colored?

Oh wait! Darvi's question as to why I'm not voting him.
Answer: Because you aren't the person I am/was trying to pressure. I was trying to pressure Imp, to get him to do a good play instead of active-lurking like it had appeared he had been(and still may be). And I only have me vote to pressure people with!

Rolepgeek: Lie much?  Words don't pressure?  Your intense and intensely focused hostility is not actually a form of pressure to you?  Have you had your blood pressure checked recently, or are you afraid that visiting a doctor would raise questions about possible drug abuse?

I do hope this counts as posting something with content.

Rolepgeek:  What purpose does this serve in your post?  Are you admitting that you are alternating your passive lurking with active lurking, and are checking to make sure that we buy this shit and to verify we are eager to swallow more of it?

"posting something with content"?  Sure he did.  Content of value to the game and its purpose?  Lets consider that.

Answer to Superblackcat:  I'm not really playing this game, and need more time.  Remind me because I might not be arsed to remember, cause I'm not really here to play it.

Answer to Persus13:  I'm not really playing this game, and need more time.  But that Imp, oh man!  I can wax on and on about his bad play, that I don't even bother to really read, earlier or recently.  Don't forget though, I'm not really playing this game and haven't been, so I really do need more time.

Answer to Imp:  Yay!  You're actually engaging me!  That's going to make bullying you more fun.  Good boy!  Here's some excuses, that's your reward.  Lets encourage you to engage me more, so I can get you -really- good next time.

Answer to Kleril:  Ahh, does everyone buy my BS?  Yeah, I'm a BSer, hehehe.

Answer to Darvi:  I'm just here to bully Imp.  My vote's on Imp because that makes my bullying behavior more excusable and understandable.  I don't care to pay any attention to you and no promises that I intend to focus on you at any point.

Alright, now for the sweep.

Ffffuuuuuu-

Whoops, it's hard work trying to play this game and I'd really can't be arsed.  Lets make it look like I'm actually trying to do more than bully Imp though... Oh!  People wonder if Imp and Mr.Zero are scumbuddies.  That'll do!  Why Top Scum is Mr.Zero of course, for no reasons I need to give, just that it's really obvious he's Scum.  (I don't notice that not saying Imp is my top Scum makes it a wee bit obvious that I'm attacking Imp to attack, and not because I care if he's Scum or not)  Here. I'll pick a couple other people to claim as my top town and I won't give any reasons cause I'll just make them up later if I think I need to, and I'll say a few generic closing words that seem to suggest that I'm thinking and playing.

*cracks knuckles*...(I'm noticing a theme here...)

You're not the only one.

[Imp]

Unless one of you knows how to copy/paste from it to my IPad, of course.

Would emailing it to yourself work?

[Imp]

Hey there Kleril!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I know you’re still catching up.  There's no rush to answer any of this, but I wanted to talk to you and ask a few more questions of you.

To start, I'm not sure how to deal with all this anti-me momentum that's been growing against me.

I haven't been talking to you much for a bit.  My conscious reasoning didn't include this...

My lack of response was to try and let you react, and considering you've been more inquisitive rather than defensive over this, it has put me somewhat at ease in my suspicion.

...but I sure noticed those words quickly and felt they were important when I started to prepare this post to you, so it might have had some subconscious effect upon me.

You haven't really appeared inquisitive about my accusations.  You don't have any questions about what I said or meant?  Or how I interpreted your actions and words?

It's also clear to me that you haven't attacked me back, at -all-.  The closest to an attack, even the closest thing to a refutation of my accusations, comes in your post following Behemoth.  The strongest negative reaction you express towards me is that I've played in a way that reveals your intended D2 lynch target to the Scum a day early.  The harshest reaction you express is "Use your head." and you say that in connection to how you would be deceptive from post one, not 5 or so pages into the game, if you were Scum.

You still appear to be trying to defend me too.  Most recently from Darvi...

Imp is getting too comfortable with their picks. That sounds like scum pre-emptively deciding on the lynches because fuck scumhunting, you know you can trust them. Right?

The only pick Imp is sure of is me. Are they too comfortable with it? Yeah, but I'm partially at fault for that, and looking to change it. If this behaviour continues past D1, then something's up, but for now it seems excusable.

And while you have been defensive, it is not in some typical ways I'd expect, including your complete lack of attack back at me.  What are your reasons and the thoughts that drive them, for how you have been writing and reacting 'post behemoth', in general and also specifically towards me and my accusations? 


Also: Would you be willing to explain, as clearly as you can, your chain of observation and interpretation that lead to this mistake you have claimed?

Alright, I figured out why my behavior has seemed so strange and unexplained. I screwed up and thought the vote Deathsword had placed was in fact a vote against him, and so when you voted for him after his, I thought you were placing a second vote against him. Please excuse my stupidity.

Though this is not my only concern about you, I am currently most interested in understanding what you saw and what you understood (thus why you said what you said and when you said it in regards to your mistake).  There's absolutely no need to use any judgments about yourself in explaining what you saw and what you thought, you can include that if you must but what I am asking to read is something like "when I saw (quote), I thought [your interpretation], and when I saw (quote) I thought [your interpretation], and I decided (intention and/or strategy) so I posted (quote).  But by all means include whatever details you believe will help me understand how to follow your reasoning, because that is what I am asking for help with.

A significant portion of my suspicion of you is that I cannot understand how to reach the same mistake you claim, even when I follow every post in the game, from the OP onwards - trying to find something I can (reasonably or even unreasonably mis)interpret that supports your stated interpretation and the events as they played out.  Unable to find that, I interpret your posts as lies, and then I re-evaluate everything again trying to find pro-Town intention or reasoning that might motivate that lie.  Unable to find that, I name(d) you Scum.

I don't like thinking that you are a liar - unless you actually are one, then I am utterly happy to.  Can you help me see the truth in your words?

By the way, I should mention - though I'm not talking about it (yet), I'm not ignoring that you are scumhunting, even now.  Or that your targets are varied.  Or that some people have been ignoring your questions, or unable to yet answer them despite having made some posts and answered other questions, or are somehow mysteriously missing questions coming from you.  I've also noticed some subtler things you've done in trying to get these non-answering people to answer - like waiting until someone else asks that person the same question you previously had, then when they do not answer it again you pick up the second questioner's question and challenge why it was never answered - without a word about your own earlier question.

What, people want links to this stuff?  It's right there in front of us all, no?  Sheesh.  That ain't his only recent Scumhunting either, just a nice subtle thing and interesting peek into what may be this player's humility and complexity of thought.

@Mr. Zero:
What's Rolepgeek done to take the spot of top town, for you?

@Zero[/size]:

@Darvi, I will gladly answer every question you have if you show a clear indication that the question is directed at me.

Got any more reasons for your town read on RPG?

There's a question directed at you, and you blew it off. Now, answer it.  On top of that, you avoided answering the question.

What, you guys think I think I'm wrong about Kleril being Scum?  Not yet.

He can be all kinds of awesome and still be Scum.

If enough agree he's probably Scum, I'll see him go to the gallows with both smiles and tears, proud of our work that put him there (though the smile will be wan indeed, if he is proved Town).

[Imp]

This is to all, it regards some clues as to the basis of my interaction with Mr.Zero and what I suspected/still suspect forms the basis of his interaction back at me.

This is a fragment of what I've been holding the posting my overall analysis of Mr.Zero's play so far, specifically I have at last an explanation from Mr.Zero about what he meant with his 'cryptic answer'...  He was answering Cat directly, not my redirect of Cat's question, but he says enough of what I asked for.  I 'had issue' with trying to quote this normally because the formatting had already been altered, I tried to fix, then just threw up my hands and did it simpler.
Cat:  You seem to understand Imp very well... Might you be getting clarifications, or just frankly status updates with eachother... in a certain thing called Scum chat?

You two seems to be working together. It wasn't very apparent in the previous posts, but because of that post, I've noticed you guys have basically agreed on everything.
Mr.Zero:  Totally, and you?
Cat:  What do you mean by that? Do you agree that you guys are in Scum chat, Do explain exactly what you mean by "Totally and you?"
Mr.Zero:  Sarcasm and redirected the question at you, i should have put [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags in it as i forgot that it's hard to transfer sarcastic comments over the Internet.

Cat could have easily asked me the same question, and how I interpreted Mr.Zero's answer to mean is very close akin to how I believe I would have answered it.  For that matter I wondered about answering it, then decided I didn't need to, and I did want to know Mr.Zero's answer.

My answer would have also mostly disregarded the actual question, which essentially is "are you two in Scumchat?".  What's actually being asked, to my interpretation, is why are we agreeing with each other/Why is there any impression of us working together? - after all, there's 4 parts to Cat's statement, and though the actual question is about Scumchat, all other three parts are about our apparent understanding of each other, agreement with each other, and teamwork.

Thus my answer would have approximately been (note it applies as of then):  Mr.Zero shows above average activity (typically a post a day, decent length, not just answering but also asking, examining responses, and I see evidence he is thinking and sharing his thoughts - and his expressed reasoning seems sensible and genuine), he's pointing out things that I also see and am concerned about as well as asking questions I find useful, challenging others in ways I would have been happy to, and getting information that I find useful, for example here, here, and here all contain a range of neat interactions and reasoning. 

Additionally, he's being reasonable and cooperative in a positive for the game fashion (Example - I invited him to become more specific in his first question to me.  He did so, and in a fashion that allowed me to answer it with comfort.  D1 was drawing to a close.  He was one of the ones to seek extension, the first in fact when I was too unsure if one would be reasonable and so only offered to -support- if anyone else asked for one.  What, he didn't help anyone but me - does anyone find that suspicious?  Did anyone but me ask him/the group as a whole to?).

Why do we look like we're working together?  Why are we agreeing with each other?  Why do we appear to understand each other?  From my side, I answer that what he has said makes sense.  And compared to a large number of other players in the game, his behavior looks far less Scummy than most!  He is trying to do the job and putting effort and thought into it.  He appears to be working towards drawing other players out and challenging scumminess where he sees it - and so am I.  He responded acceptably to my initial interactions to him - quite acceptably in fact.  He appeared to accept my initial interactions with him as well.

I'm not done with him.  I don't think he's done with me.  But as of then, I saw no reason to make him my primary focus, or even a secondary one.  You all have surely noticed how I was spending my time instead.  And he was active.  I don't have to engage him directly and constantly to read him - and when I see something I dislike and have room in my brain to track that too, I can pick it up at any time.  None of these posts are ever going away, and even if I never see something that 'looks wrong', I like all of us have an ever-growing host of information to reconsider and then question from.

So what did his 'Totally.  You?' response back to Cat mean to me?  "Imp and I look like we're working together because we are.  We're putting effort into the game and frankly, I can understand at least enough of how she thinks and what she's doing to see value in her play.  How about you?  Why don't you also look like you're the same team as me and her?"

I have no problem with that answer, as of that time.  Far as I know, he might be Scum.  Lets pretend he is Scum for the purpose of this question:  How am I supposed to determine Scum like him from among choices like Griffinpup, Luke, Kleril, and Superblackcat?  The best I can do is the best I can do, and if he's Scum playing to look town, he was doing a great job against the background of a great many other players.  When I find a way to catch him, I'll do it.  And I appreciate all the help I can get, from him and the rest of the team, from anyone who's actually trying to find Scum, with or without skill.

[Tiruin]

I 'had issue' with trying to quote this normally because the formatting had already been altered, I tried to fix, then just threw up my hands and did it simpler.

:O

Formatter, to the rescue!

{See the toolbar when you press the Reply option in the thread? There will be lots of pictures and buttons. Right next to what may be a radioactive sign [6 triangles inscribed in a circle, with half being black and half being yellow] to the left of it is a textbox-ish thingy. It is the 'insert quote' button.

You could either note down the reply # [which is the tag of the post no matter what forum formatting you use, let's poke at Reply #248] or say something then link it just like I did back here, and then highlight, then copy-paste what is needed. The link provides the passage, the quotes you do provide what you're poking at.

Just note that directly copy-pasting removes any and all formatting done, like the one below had to be manually blue'd.

Cat:  You seem to understand Imp very well... Might you be getting clarifications, or just frankly status updates with eachother... in a certain thing called Scum chat?

Also on first glance it seems like you suspect yourself here. The Insert Quote button is your friend when it comes to stabbing out of context~

Do not quote mine, by the way.}

[Mr.Zero]

@Squill

@All: Does anyone think that SBC was really sucking up to kleril? I didn't notice it personally, and even if it did happen, then kleril's lynch could be quite informative.

Sorry, but what do you mean by sucking up?


@Imp

Mr.Zero, a third question.  Persus13 asks me this.

why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC?

What do you think of this question, and what's he really asking?

The question is ok, buddying can be seen as a form of scumiminess. The question is probably the following: Why did you pick A first? And not B,C,D,etc.
If i were asked this question i would've responded with this. :" It was the most obvious scum sign at that time, so i decided to pursue it in an attempt to see if he's scum."

@persus13

@ Zero: (referring to here) And once again I take issue with part of your anti-SBC argument. I agree that we should look at SBC's explanation with some doubt, but I haven't read the OP in a while, and I don't remember explicitly stating there were 9 players, just 7 beginners and 2 ICs. So shooting down instantly makes me wonder if you've already decided you're 100% certain SBC is scum and making the pieces fit where they don't.

I'm not 100% certain, you can't unless he/she get's lynched and flips whatever you predicted. Though i'm positive he's leaning to the scum side.

Regarding the set-up. Listen, when you decide to join something new, you first start gathering information and reading whatever is provided. right? I did as a refresher and picked up some knowledge along the way. What i don't like about his reasoning is that he assumed things. Why? There is no reason to assume stuff if you would have red the OP in the first place. It's all there. Also i believe that the question was raised regarding the participation of the IC's.

In the game you can assume stuff, but eventually you will have to provide evidence. You can't say
"I ASSUME X is scum, so i vote for him."

Here is a quote of the OP, you can find it at "Notes about the IC"

The ICs are here solely to teach new players how to play, but remember, they are also players in the game

See the bolded part? It doesn't take a mathematical genius to figure out town/scum ratio in our set-up.

So ESSENTIALLY. For the first week or two, he active lurked, with little to no scum hunting. Pushing his NL to the wrong set-up while the information was there from the beginning.


More to come when i get back home.

[Superblackcat]

MrZero, yes I skimmed through the OP, yes I did not read most of page 1 and 2.


Also, thanks for the return in activity after 3 days.

@Imp, The reason why I posed that question to MrZero, was because he accepted your reasoning, some of the messiest ones, some of the ones I don't think made sense, without a second thought, repost, or even highlighting what part he liked about it. He just said: (not quoted) I think kleril because of what imp just said in the super post. He has been active lurking the whole game: answering questions people pose to him, and then asking questions very much similar to yours. He has had actual activity and scum hunting. But most of his activity has been lurk.

[Mr.Zero]

MrZero, yes I skimmed through the OP, yes I did not read most of page 1 and 2.


Also, thanks for the return in activity after 3 days.

@Imp, The reason why I posed that question to MrZero, was because he accepted your reasoning, some of the messiest ones, some of the ones I don't think made sense, without a second thought, repost, or even highlighting what part he liked about it. He just said: (not quoted) I think kleril because of what imp just said in the super post. He has been active lurking the whole game: answering questions people pose to him, and then asking questions very much similar to yours. He has had actual activity and scum hunting. But most of his activity has been lurk.

what? Did you 'TROUGHROUGHLY' read this as well?

That was.... yesterday. Holy shit maths is hard. You are just too sloppy, get workin on it.

[Imp]

Here's the second question I was waiting for.

Mr.Zero, a third question.  Persus13 asks me this.

why is your first piece of your anti-klelil argument is that he was buddying SBC?

What do you think of this question, and what's he really asking?

The question is ok, buddying can be seen as a form of scumiminess. The question is probably the following: Why did you pick A first? And not B,C,D,etc.
If i were asked this question i would've responded with this. :" It was the most obvious scum sign at that time, so i decided to pursue it in an attempt to see if he's scum."


More to come when i get back home.

Between having no time just now and still waiting for another question to be answered, I'll keep this short.

@Imp, The reason why I posed that question to MrZero, was because he accepted your reasoning, some of the messiest ones, some of the ones I don't think made sense, without a second thought, repost, or even highlighting what part he liked about it. He just said: (not quoted) I think kleril because of what imp just said in the super post. He has been active lurking the whole game: answering questions people pose to him, and then asking questions very much similar to yours. He has had actual activity and scum hunting. But most of his activity has been lurk.

Actually, now that Mr.Zero's provided his interpretation too, I'll say a couple more fast things now - What Persus13 identified as my first point of anti-Kleril evidence, 'buddying'  - particularly Kleril buddying SBC isn't the first point I tried to make.  That's actually my final point, discussed in the end of my case on Cat, where I reach the point of having decided to evaluate both of the (to me) high-probability Scum for links.  After getting quite excited about what Cat said about Kleril in his top FOS/Town post, my argument circled back to Kleril and noted that his first weak prod was to Cat, never followed up on even after questioning (that was part of my initial discussion of that as Scummy, but my initial discussion wasn't concerned with that being buddying Cat), and was the only evidence I could see of a link of buddying from Kleril to Cat.  I don't have time to explain my Kleril concerns better right now, but that'll come really soon now that y'all have spent a few days helping me understand how confusing my presentation style was.

I didn't mean to be confusing about my points in Behemoth, and I didn't intentionally set traps for other Scum [singular or plural] in my laying out of problems with everything Kleril (other than anything provokes reactions or not, and reactions or not are always useful).

But before I clarified my actual argument, I most certainly did want to see Mr.Zero's opinion first.  I actually expected a much more accurate interpretation, in regards to what I actually meant.  I expected Mr.Zero to say something along the lines of 'You misunderstand the argument and that's not my first point", and I am a bit shocked to hear Mr.Zero call Kleril buddying Cat "most obvious scum sign at that time" because I absolutely don't see it as one.  In fact, I'd place Kleril buddying Cat as the weakest support of all for Kleril being Scum, both in general and in Behemoth, and one that's 100% contingent on Cat not being Scummy, but being real Scum, as well as on Kleril being not scummy but real Scum too.  It's in the category of 'if I'm right about both of these, then some link might be there, is it?  Possibly, here's the evidence that supports it, such things are subtle but if they are both Scum, this does nothing to make me doubt my suspicions of them both.' 

Thanks for all the patience and help understanding and seeing stuff, people, I appreciate it and need it!

Though wow, you've all been really patient and calm about what more than one player has politely said 'this doesn't really make sense'.  I'll try to make it much more clear tonight.

[Squill]

@All: Does anyone think that SBC was really sucking up to kleril? I didn't notice it personally, and even if it did happen, then kleril's lynch could be quite informative.
You lot all suck anyway, especially when your ribcages start expanding. Also that's a scumtell right there, unsubtly nudging us towards lynching kleril. Yeah it has three votes (I think) on it, so what. It's not a reason to go "hey we might want to lynch it and see what happens".

Also, no. I have a negative spot modifier so I wouldn't notice the broad side of a barn.


And with this, I'm failrly certain that Squill was lurking scum all along who's now trying to push for a kleril lynch. I'm still gonna watch Imp, though, naturally. And RPG can join the Haus.

A good town would realize something: If they got lynched, and flipped town, then SBC would be put in a pretty bad light.

A ood town would realize that SBC would already be in a bad light and it wouldn't need to get lynched for it. The inverse might be true (somebody badly attacking somebody else, who then turns out to be scum, will look more like town unless the lynchee was obviously bad enough to warrant a bus.), but this way it doesn't. You don't look more scummy for badly attacking if your target turns out to be town, because the bad attacks speak fror themselves.

I'm not quite sure I follow. Could you maybe restate some of the wording from the second post? While I don't think SBC's in the best light, I was stating that kleril used what seemed to me like faulty logic. It looks very much to me that kleril was put under pressure, and cracked and tried to pass on as much suspicion as possible to the person who was the second highest suspicion wise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I wasn't actually stating that SBC's is trying to suck up to kleril. I was saying that if SBC was trying to pretend to be overly friendly to kleril, that doesn't change the fact that kleril has been scummy, it is just a bit more evidence against SBC if kleril turned out to be right.

This seems like a sound argument to me, could you actually explain how it's not?

@Squill

@All: Does anyone think that SBC was really sucking up to kleril? I didn't notice it personally, and even if it did happen, then kleril's lynch could be quite informative.

Sorry, but what do you mean by sucking up?

I mean trying to appear to be friendly or especially sycophantic towards someone. Kleril was saying that SBC, one of several people's "likely to be mafia" picks, was attempting to be friendly towards kleril to destroy kleril's reputation.

@Squill, Did you not read my post last page, or 2 pages ago, explaining why I supported kleril until now? (as you say, sucking up to him).

@ SBC and @Darvi: I do not see kleril's view on SBC's behavior, I'm just saying that even if kleril's view was as obvious as he says, his logic is still faulted. This was a largely hypothetical scenario, at least to me.