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Total Members Voted: 13

[Vector]

. . . You seem to not understand the idea that I'm not getting additional opportunity.  The system has fucked me over; the system can fix what it did.

[pisskop]

That I cannot agree with:  The 'system' did no such thing.  The government, the employers, the standardized tests did nothing to you.  You may have been wronged, and to make up for it you planed to skew the world and potentially wrong another?

That's selfish.  And two wrong /=/ right

EDIT: As far as additional opportunity you certainly are.  Opportunity lost is gone, not saved to be redeemed later

[tahujdt]

In the UK discrimination of pay and jobs based on prejudice is illegal. This ensures equal pay for equal work put in.
Favouritism like that would not be allowed.

I could go on for days about how stupid the UK is(I'm talking about the laws, not the inhabitants), but anti-discrimination laws in almost any sense seem to me to be just begging for abuse.

If I don't want to hire a black man because he has a history of gang membership and drug abuse, he can sue for discrimination, which is just ridiculous. I'm not discriminating against him because he is black, I'm discriminating against him because he is a violent junkie. (It is my belief that the statistics on drug abuse are correlated with race, but there is only an indirect causation, because most gangs are in low-income areas, which have a high black population.)
Sorry if that sounded racist, I was just trying to think of the most realistic example.

[tahujdt]

. . . You seem to not understand the idea that I'm not getting additional opportunity.  The system has fucked me over; the system can fix what it did.

Why should you get more opportunity than the rest of us?

[Vector]

Opportunity lost is gone, not saved to be redeemed later

Tell that to all the young rapists who have the media falling over their lost futures and how unfair it would be to make them pay for what they did.

[Loud Whispers]

If I don't want to hire a black man because he has a history of gang membership and drug abuse, he can sue for discrimination, which is just ridiculous.

[Citation needed]

Opportunity lost is gone, not saved to be redeemed later

Tell that to all the young rapists who have the media falling over their lost futures and how unfair it would be to make them pay for what they did.

And I'm sure every man ever is a young rapist who has the media fawning over their lost futures.

[Vector]

Did I say every young man ever?

I'm saying that there's an interesting thing where I do nothing wrong, face discrimination, and so on and folks say "tough luck, opportunity lost," but someone can rape someone and be told over and over that they deserve a second chance.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

DWC
What you say is against an open market of workforce...

Let's say, some Army has a demand for 10 000 soldiers and need to choose the best suited for the job... And 10 000 best candidates have a right to get the job they deserve. Do you think it's fair if the 10 000th best soldier doesn't get the job because half of the population has unfair market advantage?

[DWC]

Yeah I agree women are overly sexualized in society, thanks to all this wonderful entertainment media around now. Yet women are going into professions and attending college more then men are. So the reversal of tradition, from prudishness and treating women like 2nd class citizens now you have sexuality blasted everywhere and women are expected to perform on the same level of men in an occupation.

So yeah, it's no wonder some people have a hard time treating each other like normal people. I just don't think the culture of professionalism and keeping business and private life separate is really that established in society yet. Most people are just naturally trashy, I think, that goes for both genders.

Are you saying fat bodied, out of shape men would be able to skim by on the minimum if they were able to use the female standard, and that females wouldn't be able to compete with the same male standard as is? That instead of having a soldier's standard we should instead have gendered standards?

I'm saying the reality of having a volunteer military pretty much makes a double standard the only practical standard they can impliment. I'd love to see a 'soldier's standard' but they just haven't figured out how that would work exactly. The purpose of a soldier is to go brave danger and go into combat and other extreme emergency situations. Physical fitness is pretty important to beable to perform and survive.

But yeah, if females had the same standards as men do now, there would be very few female soldiers able to meet that standard. Same thing with age, if a 55 year old is expected to meet the same standard as 20 year old, there would not be very many soldiers in the army long enough to be generals and sergeant majors and whatnot.

[Loud Whispers]

It's not a case of 'tough luck.' It's a case of your injustices not being a reasonable cause for more injustice.

Secondly if we're bringing up inappropriate rape anecdotes, how much bearing do you think it has on the conversation that someone accused of rape has his life ruined and the accuser's response [after 8 years he spent in prison] was 'let's just move on.'
About none really.

I'd love to see a 'soldier's standard' but they just haven't figured out how that would work exactly.

[Have standard entry tests].

But yeah, if females had the same standards as men do now, there would be very few female soldiers able to meet that standard.

Then they should not be in that job.

Same thing with age, if a 55 year old is expected to meet the same standard as 20 year old, there would not be very many soldiers in the army long enough to be generals and sergeant majors and whatnot.

Men 3 times the age of the young recruits doing the initial test get 9% more time, still much less than the women. 55 year olds would not be allowed to enter.

[tahujdt]

If I don't want to hire a black man because he has a history of gang membership and drug abuse, he can sue for discrimination, which is just ridiculous.

[Citation needed]

I'm trying to respect his privacy, so I won't reveal his name.

Seriously, though, that's just what I think of when I read about anti-discrimination laws. I can't source the story that I'm thinking of, but I'll try and find it.

[Andrew425]

I think that lies in the crux of the argument.  If they didn't hold women to different fitness standards when joining the military they would miss out on fantastic recruits. The problem lies in the fact that for combat infantry a higher standard is needed then the general test. Realistically the number of women who want to and can physically meet the requirements will be a small number.

The question then becomes is it worth the extra effort to have these women placed into these roles?

In a perfect world yes,  but how about ours?

[tahujdt]

In fact, I'd say that such action only serves to widen any gaps in society.  By giving them advantages you not only create a feeling of helplessness or inferiority for those helped but you also create animosity among their peers.  In basic training, for instance, it is popular to punish somebody by giving them preferential treatment.  Their peers come to dislike them.

I'm just going to say that as a math-gal, I'll take any affirmative action I can get.  I've struggled through stereotyping, unfair grading, being discouraged from going to grad school because "it'd be too much of a commitment," ridiculously low classroom enrollment rates (only woman in the room, babe~), intentionally unhelpful professors, serious sexual harassment from folks I need recommendations from (so I can't report them--I know what happens to women who do that), undermining, and more.  Oh, and the first time a female mathematician was mentioned by anyone in the classroom, student or teacher, was last semester.  In a graduate course.  Being persistently told that if I was struggling, it was because I was stupid or lazy, and surely had nothing to do with any of the above.

My peers have not had to tangle with any of these things.  From my point of view, they are receiving preferential treatment.  And, from my point of view, some of my grades are certainly reflective of my ability, but ... many of them aren't.

(For reference, on the computerized GRE I got 170/170/5.5 without studying; I'm not stupid.  But my grades sure make me look pretty dumb [B average])

After re-reading your post, I find it kind of hard to believe. About the continual harassment and stuff, I mean.  And if you're struggling, don't blame others for it. Otherwise, sqrt(-1) wish you the best of luck in your chosen career.

If you're wondering about the lack of mention of famous female mathematicians, it's probably because there aren't that many. This isn't because of lack of female ability, it's because of lack of women in the profession.

[Neonivek]

The question then becomes is it worth the extra effort to have these women placed into these roles?

Well yes it is.

The test is just to make sure that the recruits they are hiring, who would be typically male, are physically fit. The test was made with a male in mind not with general performance in mind.

A firefighter's test is based off of real practical world applications. Thus the weight a firefighter has to carry as part of the test is immutable because it represents the average weight of a person. So even though female success would drop the test has tangible application.

For the soldier fitness test a lot of it is just being generally healthy and fit. It is not based on any real applications. The army doesn't want any soldiers who are not healthy and fit because they are a liability.

The altered test for females is based on this: If the test is just to make sure that all recruits are healthy and fit, then the test should be to see if a female recruit is a healthy and fit female recruit.

[Vector]

And if you're struggling, don't blame others for it.

My professor for my introductory analysis course would, while lecturing, stare at me while zipping and unzipping his fly, visibly somewhat aroused.  I am not exactly sure how he isn't to blame for this.

After re-reading your post, I find it kind of hard to believe. About the continual harassment and stuff, I mean.

Good for you.

If you're wondering about the lack of mention of famous female mathematicians, it's probably because there aren't that many. This isn't because of lack of female ability, it's because of lack of women in the profession.

Oh. . . really?  That's a newsflash!  Thanks for telling me, teehee :3

Do we mention the founder of computer science in computer science classes, Ada Lovelace?  No.  Do we mention the discoverer of the double-helix structure, Rosalind Franklin?  No.  Do we mention the woman who figured out that the sun was made of hydrogen?  No.  Do we mention Sophie Germain?  Do we mention Hypatia, in our courses on the history of mathematics?  Do we mention Emmy Noethur in our beginning physics courses, the lady who built the backbone of modern physics and abstract algebra?

No.  We're given Marie Curie and asked to look the other way as our accomplishments are mentioned, but our names are forgotten.