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[Scoops Novel]

On another, slightly derailing note, as we all fucking agree that women should have equal tests, for much scrutinized reasons and this convenient thread may as well be locked if you keep circling that drain, I've wished to discuss how gender roles affect the mindset of women themselves, and given this is less likely to attract trolls may as well (though looking at your "trolling" I'm not overly incensed - good on that man!). It seems a better place then it's initial home, (the happy thread) by any means.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

When people assume that women are automatically inferior to men in terms of physical or mental prowess

Mental is wrong and sexism, but physical...

Common.... several decades of professional sport proved that women can't match men in pure physical activities, that's a biology common for many, many animals (some animals have it vice versa with females notably stronger than males)

[Vector]

In fact, I'd say that such action only serves to widen any gaps in society.  By giving them advantages you not only create a feeling of helplessness or inferiority for those helped but you also create animosity among their peers.  In basic training, for instance, it is popular to punish somebody by giving them preferential treatment.  Their peers come to dislike them.

I'm just going to say that as a math-gal, I'll take any affirmative action I can get.  I've struggled through stereotyping, unfair grading, being discouraged from going to grad school because "it'd be too much of a commitment," ridiculously low classroom enrollment rates (only woman in the room, babe~), intentionally unhelpful professors, serious sexual harassment from folks I need recommendations from (so I can't report them--I know what happens to women who do that), undermining, and more.  Oh, and the first time a female mathematician was mentioned by anyone in the classroom, student or teacher, was last semester.  In a graduate course.  Being persistently told that if I was struggling, it was because I was stupid or lazy, and surely had nothing to do with any of the above.

My peers have not had to tangle with any of these things.  From my point of view, they are receiving preferential treatment.  And, from my point of view, some of my grades are certainly reflective of my ability, but ... many of them aren't.

(For reference, on the computerized GRE I got 170/170/5.5 without studying; I'm not stupid.  But my grades sure make me look pretty dumb [B average])

[Scoops Novel]

What would you say are the major obstacles, beyond the obvious? I'd welcome hearing the sentiments of women of different ages on such which you're familiar with.

[Neonivek]

What would you say are the major obstacles, beyond the obvious? I'd welcome hearing the sentiments of women of different ages on such which you're familiar with.

There is a strong stereotype that men have the mind for Math and science and women do not. This has scientific backing of dubiousness (I've seen how easy it is for "science" to make things up).

[Scoops Novel]

I'm familiar with it. How prevalent is the next question there. Out of curiosity, are confiding's on gender roles and the likes ever a part of any of your male and female relationships, particularly the less closely attached ones? How much? For that matter, how prevalent are (in the general populace) the relationships themselves? It's appears to be a rarity to have anywhere near the number of close-knit friends of your gender with the other. Lastly, how's the question barrage? I've always found it a good way of killing threads, myself.

[Vector]

Most successful women in mathematics have male relatives who already have math PhDs, in my experience.  That is, they have someone to talk to about math, because through middle school and high school the boys won't talk to them unless they're fawning (not fucking kidding about this).  It's very hard to learn any math when the more successful you are, the smaller the pool of people to discuss your notions with is.  It's also very hard when in order to talk to someone, you're expected to humiliate yourself and make yourself look as small and harmless as possible.  When you get to college, you won't have that problem, but folks will be *shocked* if you're marginally competent.

Add to that all of the "scientific" "research" trying to explain to you just why little old you can work as hard as you want, but you'll never succeed.  The goalposts always move.  If the average woman is just as capable as the average man at math, then they'll start saying that the problem is that you have to be really above average, and there just aren't any women who can do that.  Whatever problem you have, they'll blame it on you.  Never mind the great female mathematicians of yesteryear, and never mind the talented women today, and never mind that women pioneered the very closely related field of computer science.  You're a girl.  You're incapable.  Studying math is a waste of your life, because you'll never, ever make it.  So why not go have babies?

Remember that story about a woman who was denied tenure and is still being questioned 15 years later as to her right to teach?  The undergraduates pass this story around between them.  The women get the message that they'd better sit down and shut up until they're being considered for tenure, because before that any complaint of sexism will ruin their career chances with all the rumor-mongering.

There's also knowledge that being a woman means you will be seen less successful than a man with the same credentials.  So I might as well have a B- average.

More than that, I guess, is the information constantly being sent my way that everything is my fault.  I am smart.  I am talented.  And fuck it, I am really good at math.  I'm consistently the sharpest person in the room.  I solve problems six times faster than the average Berkeley undergraduate, and if I were anyone else I'd probably be getting preferential treatment and deference.  In male math students, being bad at computation is a sign of exceptional genius.  For female math students, being bad at anything is considered a sign of being unexpectedly stupid.

How prevalent is the next question there.

Very.  Prevalent enough that the American Mathematical Society pioneered a global study in gender differences in mathematics, correlated to local stereotypes about who was better (in Arab countries, the stereotype is that women are better).  Unsurprisingly, taken globally there was no difference in skill and disparities followed stereotype locally.  This is... a big deal.  Mathematicians generally just want to stick to mathematics.

Out of curiosity, are confiding's on gender roles and the likes ever a part of any of your male and female relationships, particularly the less closely attached ones? How much?

I've learned that it's generally not a good idea to talk to people about it, especially when you don't know them all that well.  Folks have, for example, tried to convince me that people think I'm stupid because I'm ugly, not because I'm female (while interrupting me to the point where I couldn't get a string of six words out).  Or laughed about how of course more women should go into math, because lots of mathematicians still need wives.

To be honest, I have very few female friends (that's the math track for you!).  In general, I've found it's safest to talk to Gender and Women's Studies or History majors, but there's a couple of math dudes who are okay.  What I'm trying to say is, those are the ones I'd probably be able to speak to without thinking about it.

For that matter, how prevalent are (in the general populace) the relationships themselves? It's appears to be a rarity to have anywhere near the number of close-knit friends of your gender with the other.

No idea, but again--almost all of my friends, close and otherwise, are men.  I have two close female friends and have a lot of female not-so-close friends, who would probably be supportive but wouldn't... I dunno, get it.

[Scoops Novel]

That last bit is what i was after. Why?

[Vector]

Why what?

[Scoops Novel]

Why don't they get it?

[Neonivek]

Why don't they get it?

Because change requires energy and resources.

[DWC]

Every branch of the military has different standards based on gender. Females always have to meet lower physical standards. These tests are very important for career advancement and favorable action. While they'd like to make the tests equal, they really can't. If the criteria is to what an average female can do, then you'd have way too many fat bodied, out of shape male soldiers skimming by on the minimum and if they are set to male standards you'd have virtually no female soldiers and you'd end up having trouble meeting recruitment quotas.

It's an all-volunteer military and that's the crux of the issue. The military can't just draft a bunch of soldiers to get the quality and quantity of people they need so it's important that females can serve as well as men. Volunteer soldiers are also expected to be good at their profession and the profession entails duties that can others are not suited to do, that implies being a bit more capable then the general population they are there to protect.

[Vector]

The women?

This era is supposed to be over.  Not only that, but most people don't care that people think they're stupid at math.  It doesn't really affect their lives. . . it's sort of like this arcane thing out there.  In most fields, the whole sexualization/nonsexualization thing reveals a tension between being respected and having people think you're a slut/prudish/whatever.  In mathematics, I intentionally desexualize because I want people to perceive me as masculine.  When I didn't, I'd inevitably be flirted with; folks didn't feel comfortable talking to me about math.  Women who really take it up to the nines have people assume that they're total idiots and get constant offers of help.  Not "would you like to work on this together," but "oh, I'll show you how to do that!"  But in the economics department, where the gal came from, it was probably a symbol of power.  But when I leave the math department, I'm mocked for how I dress and act.

*shrug*

It's very different problems, like how black women don't have their sexuality put on a pedestal, but rather are assumed to be in an insatiable sexual frenzy all the time.  I mean, what I'm saying is, feminism as we usually see it refers to the experiences of white women, when black women often have the opposite problems.  Similarly, a lot of the interpretations of women are a bit different in mathematics.

[Neonivek]

What they do where I live is they switch certain part of the physical test for another. Women and Men essentially do the same amount of exercise the difference is where it is put on them.

[Loud Whispers]

How do you repeal discrimination with discrimination?

How do you counter disadvantages without focusing on those who are disadvantaged?

If you look only at intent or the beliefs behind actions then maybe you have more of a case, but frankly I only care about outcomes in this sort of situation.

And what would your outcome be? This is not egalitarianism nor humanism, this is discrimination. All you do is further degrade an ever growing number of people by making some inherently more valuable than others. You create inequality.
In the UK discrimination of pay and jobs based on prejudice is illegal. This ensures equal pay for equal work put in.
Favouritism like that would not be allowed.

If we equalize the army tests we'll still have the gender roles being enforced subconsciously [like by people in this topic], which simply needs to stop.

Explain how equality in selection enforces gender roles on any level.

I'm just going to say that as a math-gal, I'll take any affirmative action I can get.  I've struggled through stereotyping, unfair grading, being discouraged from going to grad school because "it'd be too much of a commitment," ridiculously low classroom enrollment rates (only woman in the room, babe~), intentionally unhelpful professors, serious sexual harassment from folks I need recommendations from (so I can't report them--I know what happens to women who do that), undermining, and more.  Oh, and the first time a female mathematician was mentioned by anyone in the classroom, student or teacher, was last semester.  In a graduate course.  Being persistently told that if I was struggling, it was because I was stupid or lazy, and surely had nothing to do with any of the above.

Suffering does not entitle you to more opportunity above others.

My peers have not had to tangle with any of these things.  From my point of view, they are receiving preferential treatment.  And, from my point of view, some of my grades are certainly reflective of my ability, but ... many of them aren't.

(For reference, on the computerized GRE I got 170/170/5.5 without studying; I'm not stupid.  But my grades sure make me look pretty dumb [B average])

And herein lies the dangers of judging the world by individuals.

If the criteria is to what an average female can do, then you'd have way too many fat bodied, out of shape male soldiers skimming by on the minimum and if they are set to male standards you'd have virtually no female soldiers and you'd end up having trouble meeting recruitment quotas.

Are you saying fat bodied, out of shape men would be able to skim by on the minimum if they were able to use the female standard, and that females wouldn't be able to compete with the same male standard as is? That instead of having a soldier's standard we should instead have gendered standards?