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Author Topic: BM XLI: On Wings of Haven -- Scum Victory!  (Read 101606 times)

Tiruin

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #675 on: June 23, 2013, 06:56:42 pm »

Vote standings:

  • Griffionday(0) -
  • Lenglon(1) - Leafsnail
  • nightcrafter27(0) -
  • TheWetSheep(1) - nightcrafter27
  • Leafsnail(1) - Lenglon
  • Not Voting(2) - Griffionday, TheWetSheep,


Day 3 has begun and will end at June 26, 2013. [Wednesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker!



One of you tips over the weapon rack where all your crafts are stored, only to find them stuck as if they were glued and welded on the wooded frame.

"Blast it. We can finally get our weapons free, without any watcher other than those fireballs and that strange fluffball with a flag, and then this. Who has a ludicrous amount of strength in 'em?"
"I believe you're looking for these."
The White King comes nearer, still holding his sword from it's sheath.
"Your weapons are ours. Our weapons, are yours."
"For what infallible reason is that?"
"It makes sense..I've never had a sword this long before. You know."
"Nor are all of us having swords."
"Right, fine. I'm tired enough to stop arguing that point. How do you propose we're getting those?"
"You ask for the right type."
"No. Really."

He gestures at the debris pile nearby.

"Of course. Does anyone remember the specific names?"

Silence reigns for moments until the conversations start again.
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nightcrafter27

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #676 on: June 24, 2013, 09:33:35 am »

PFP: Busy day today, I might e able toget a post in this evening.
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Leafsnail

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #677 on: June 24, 2013, 08:24:45 pm »

Griffionday, TheWetSheep: I'd like to strongly advise you to vote.  The town cannot win on a no lynch at lylo, and barring a scum error it cannot win unless all three townies are voting for a mafia member.

"Nuh-uh!"
The onus is on you to provide some kind of argumentation if you're making up a new tell


"It's scummy because I say it is!" - also, you really should explain why you didn't say anything when I explained my reasoning way back then. All I'm seeing at this point is panicked scum. If there was an actual problem with that kind of reasoning you would have said something about it at the time.
It's scummy because there's absolutely no way of logically arriving at that conclusion.  I'm gonna go into IC mode for a bit to explain this.  I'll do so by comparing it to two seemingly similar but far more likely to be valid statements.

"If X flips scum, then Y is also likely to be scum" - Can make sense because it's possible to see interactions between mafia members.  If player X and player Y had a scummy interaction, then player X flipping scum helps solidify a scum read on player Y.  Often valid.

"If X flips scum, then Y is likely to be town" - As above, but in reverse.  If the interaction between X and Y does not look like a scumteam interaction, then it follows that with X shown to be scum Y is not likely to be.  Also fairly valid.

"If X flips town, then Y is likely to be scum" - Almost always nonsense.  Player X is town, so there cannot be a scum-scum interaction between X and Y.  This means that both of the above arguments are invalid, and there's really nothing to replace it.  The most common form of it, "If player Y is wrong about X being scum then player Y is scum" is also terrible, because it's possible for a townie to be mistaken.  There's really no logical justification for it at all.

So there's no real townie motivation behind it.  But there is a strong scum motivation behind it - you can get one mislynch, then push another mislynch immediately afterwards using the backlash from the first.  As there is a strong scum motivation for chaining lynches in this way and no real townie motivation, it is a scumtell.

Anyway, as for why I didn't address your previous post, it's because you weren't chaining lynches then - just expressing your opinion on who was scum.  Further, you also said that "I don't think I will know which until vector has come back and responded to your accusations" - implying that you were just undecided rather than preparing to chain lynches.  Also note how that quote implies my accusations had some validity - you wouldn't care about Vector's response to a bullshit case.

I avoided a tie and of the two lynch targets, voted the one that I wasn't sure was town. Remember this?
The post where you say Vector looks like scum and a scumteam involving her makes a lot of sense?  Yeah.  Absolutely nothing in that post implies that I was your preferred target at the time, and you even explicitly agreed with one of my points and disagreed with a point made against me.  Heck, nothing in that post suggests that your Vector vote was reluctant.  You are trying to retroactively change your reasoning after the fact, which is scummy because it implies you are looking to mislynch people with lies rather than find scum with honest reasoning.

notice that the only people I'm comparing are Sheep, who as I've said over and over, I think is town, and Vector, who I couldn't read well.
But you make three separate points implying that you think Vector is scum, and didn't allude to any more preferable target.  If you really were reluctant about the vote, you should have said so.  I'll go further, in fact: you would have said so.

Now then, lets look at the end of day votes:
votes on Sheep: 2
votes on Vector: 3 (including myself as the last one to vote)
Now then, lets see if you can put two and two together.
I do not disagree with the principle of a tie-breaker vote.  If you had stated at the time "I don't think that Vector is very scummy, but she's the best of two bad options and I don't want a no lynch" then that would be fine.

But you didn't.  You said absolutely nothing to suggest any of that, so it's clear that you're now lying because telling that lie makes it easier for you to start attacking me for something you had no problem with (and indeed went along with yourself) yesterday.

As I said before, I'm working on the basic premise that one of the two of you is scum. I got a mildly scummy vibe from you, and no real read at all of Vector, which after all this time is reason for suspicion by itself. I was ok with a lynch of either one of you, because if we got the first lynch right, we'd have lynched scum and that's that, or if we got it wrong, we'd get it right today.
See above, on how chaining lynches like this is bad and scummy

not every aspect, Day was stretching pretty hard and brought up meaningless stuff many times. The problem I have is the way you pushed for us to lynch Vector before she got back and could defend herself, paired with the way you refused to hunt for scum among any of the people other than your two lynch targets. toss in the fact that your playerslot was totally idle before you replaced in, and you've actually been quite useless all game. I don't think that is coincidence, I think you're scum.
Captain Ford being unable to play makes him scum, somehow?  In any case, you are saying here that you agreed with the bulk of Griffionday's reasoning, but never once mentioned it yesterday.  Your "useless" argument is silly - no mafia members have been lynched so far, so you could argue that every single player in this game has been useless by that token.

I did, see the above quote. Also, as I said before, over and over, your reasons themselves were fine. The way you presented them and pushed them, in other words how you used them, was the problem.
See the rest of this post


You haven't been paying attention if you think that's all I'm saying.
Nuh uh
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Leafsnail

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #678 on: June 24, 2013, 08:27:42 pm »

But seriously guys vote and express your opinions and stuff because there's basically no chance of winning if there isn't a majority vote on someone today.
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Griffionday

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #679 on: June 24, 2013, 09:27:07 pm »

Leafsnail:
But seriously guys vote and express your opinions and stuff because there's basically no chance of winning if there isn't a majority vote on someone today.
You're right of course.  I'll vote when my reads clear some.

You did miss my questions for you though (I know I'm being slightly hypocritical by asking for advice on how to play, but I honestly want to know your opinion):

Leafsnail:
If your candidate clearly cannot be lynched then it's ok to try and work out which potential candidate is the most likely to be scum, and vote for them instead.  You should make it clear that this is what you are doing, though.
Alright, I think I can see that.  At what point should one do so?  24hrs? after one extension?

Also: What did you think when Vector came up town?  Outside of focusing on the people who are attacking you for being wrong how do you typically respond to being wrong?  Because if this is your typical play style I can't imagine that this is the first time this has happened.


Sheep:
As your primary target turned up town, what are you now thinking?  Do you still consider NightCrafter likely scum as Leaf does, or have your reads shifted to other players?

Lenglon:
I have to agree with Leafsnail; why did you fail to mention your opinion of my case on Leaf yesterday rather than just tunneling Vector?
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Lenglon

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #680 on: June 24, 2013, 09:33:34 pm »

Griffionday, TheWetSheep: I'd like to strongly advise you to vote.  The town cannot win on a no lynch at lylo, and barring a scum error it cannot win unless all three townies are voting for a mafia member.
Very true, get in here guys.

The onus is on you to provide some kind of argumentation if you're making up a new tell
also, if you're so certain that i'm scum, where's the vote? You afraid to OMGUS me so blatently? worried it'll make you look "less town"? Oh wait, you don't want to confirm my theory that Nightcrafter is your scumbuddy do you?
OMGUS is a terrible non-tell and you know it.
yes it is, but that isn't part of my case. you calling me scum and yet refusing to vote me until I called you on it IS part of my case. It's a sign that you were so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works.


-logic behind lynch chains based on town flips being bad policy-
That... actually, that's pretty reasonable, thank you. I'll go ahead and drop that aspect of my case on you then.
Anyway, as for why I didn't address your previous post, it's because you weren't chaining lynches then - just expressing your opinion on who was scum.  Further, you also said that "I don't think I will know which until vector has come back and responded to your accusations" - implying that you were just undecided rather than preparing to chain lynches. 
You really should have thought that one through better, but I'm willing to buy that you didn't understand what I was saying back then.
Also note how that quote implies my accusations had some validity - you wouldn't care about Vector's response to a bullshit case.
Your response bugs me - more on this farther down.
I avoided a tie and of the two lynch targets, voted the one that I wasn't sure was town. Remember this?
The post where you say Vector looks like scum and a scumteam involving her makes a lot of sense?  Yeah.  Absolutely nothing in that post implies that I was your preferred target at the time, and you even explicitly agreed with one of my points and disagreed with a point made against me.  Heck, nothing in that post suggests that your Vector vote was reluctant.  You are trying to retroactively change your reasoning after the fact, which is scummy because it implies you are looking to mislynch people with lies rather than find scum with honest reasoning.
same thing here.
notice that the only people I'm comparing are Sheep, who as I've said over and over, I think is town, and Vector, who I couldn't read well.
But you make three separate points implying that you think Vector is scum, and didn't allude to any more preferable target.  If you really were reluctant about the vote, you should have said so.  I'll go further, in fact: you would have said so.
again, same issue as the above two quotes, and I want to group my response to avoid giant walls all the time.
Now then, lets look at the end of day votes:
votes on Sheep: 2
votes on Vector: 3 (including myself as the last one to vote)
Now then, lets see if you can put two and two together.
I do not disagree with the principle of a tie-breaker vote.  If you had stated at the time "I don't think that Vector is very scummy, but she's the best of two bad options and I don't want a no lynch" then that would be fine.

But you didn't.  You said absolutely nothing to suggest any of that, so it's clear that you're now lying because telling that lie makes it easier for you to start attacking me for something you had no problem with (and indeed went along with yourself) yesterday.
again, same thing.
As I said before, I'm working on the basic premise that one of the two of you is scum. I got a mildly scummy vibe from you, and no real read at all of Vector, which after all this time is reason for suspicion by itself. I was ok with a lynch of either one of you, because if we got the first lynch right, we'd have lynched scum and that's that, or if we got it wrong, we'd get it right today.
See above, on how chaining lynches like this is bad and scummy
Fair, I'll abandon this part of my accusation.
not every aspect, Day was stretching pretty hard and brought up meaningless stuff many times. The problem I have is the way you pushed for us to lynch Vector before she got back and could defend herself, paired with the way you refused to hunt for scum among any of the people other than your two lynch targets. toss in the fact that your playerslot was totally idle before you replaced in, and you've actually been quite useless all game. I don't think that is coincidence, I think you're scum.
Captain Ford being unable to play makes him scum, somehow?  In any case, you are saying here that you agreed with the bulk of Griffionday's reasoning, but never once mentioned it yesterday.  Your "useless" argument is silly - no mafia members have been lynched so far, so you could argue that every single player in this game has been useless by that token.
No, No I could not. "useless" in this context means not scumhunting. Even with limited time Ford could have done far more than he did. yet he was unable to answer even the simplest of questions. you replaced in, and then immediately tunneled two people who weren't even there, and flat refused to scumhunt anyone who could actually respond because you were worried that your tunneling targets might not get lynched if you did. hell, today you didn't even post anything until I voted you, at which point you then voted me for doing it and have been ignoring everyone else's questions ever since. I have yet to see you scumhunt, that seems pretty darn useless to me.
I did, see the above quote. Also, as I said before, over and over, your reasons themselves were fine. The way you presented them and pushed them, in other words how you used them, was the problem.
See the rest of this post
Yeah, I'm looking, and I don't see it. If you had something meaningful here, please explain it.

now then, in all of the above sections that I said I'd answer them in one big block down here, you assume I'm attacking your case on Vector. That's a load of crap. As I said in every single damn post I've made all of day 3.
Sheep: I left it on her on purpose. the day needed to end, and the two possible lynch people were either you, who I consider town because of shinigami's actions, or Vector, who wasn't defending herself very well, despite being given a full week to do so.
no, the points were perfectly fine. As I said earlier, my vote on Vector was no accident. the way they were presented, and the personality behind that presentation style, is what is calling you out as scum.
I did, see the above quote. Also, as I said before, over and over, your reasons themselves were fine. The way you presented them and pushed them, in other words how you used them, was the problem.
Your Case.
On Vector.
Was Fine.

Trying.
to Speedlynch her.
And Tunneling her.
To the exclusion.
Of all else.
Was the problem.

The fact that you keep pushing this misrepresentation of what i'm saying is even more evidence that you're just trying to save your own scumbag skin at this point. There's no way you could realistically keep making that assumption after this many times I've clearly said otherwise. the only reason you're doing this is to try to push my statements out of context, and into a context you can protect yourself from better. that's scum reasoning, because you aren't even pretending to be looking for scum anymore and are just trying to defend yourself and save your own skin.

In short, you're panicking, and showing as scum through and through as a result.
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((I don't think heating something that is right above us to a ridiculous degree is very smart. Worst case scenario we become +metal statues+. This is a finely crafted metal statue. It is encrusted with sharkmist and HMRC. On the item is an image of HMRC and Pancaek. Pancaek is laughing. The HMRC is melting. The artwork relates to the encasing of the HMRC in metal by Pancaek during the Mission of Many People.))

Lenglon

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #681 on: June 24, 2013, 09:36:45 pm »

Lenglon:
I have to agree with Leafsnail; why did you fail to mention your opinion of my case on Leaf yesterday rather than just tunneling Vector?
Vector seemed more scummy than Leaf at the time, and Leaf wasn't up for lynch.
also, you were rambling on and on about the exact same things over and over, and I didn't want to give you encouragement.
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((I don't think heating something that is right above us to a ridiculous degree is very smart. Worst case scenario we become +metal statues+. This is a finely crafted metal statue. It is encrusted with sharkmist and HMRC. On the item is an image of HMRC and Pancaek. Pancaek is laughing. The HMRC is melting. The artwork relates to the encasing of the HMRC in metal by Pancaek during the Mission of Many People.))

nightcrafter27

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #682 on: June 24, 2013, 09:37:02 pm »

Ok, time for clarifications and getting people talking.

Lenglon:
also, if you're so certain that i'm scum, where's the vote? You afraid to OMGUS me so blatently? worried it'll make you look "less town"? Oh wait, you don't want to confirm my theory that Nightcrafter is your scumbuddy do you?

I'm sorry, but I'm not exactly sure how the logic behind this works. How would voting for you cause Leafsnail to prove that I am his scumbuddy?



TWS, could you answer Day's question? Basically, your thoughts on people now that Vector flipped town?



Leafsnail, do you have a secondary scumpick, or is it still me? If so, do you have new evidence?



Day Oh wait, you just posted

(Dang it, I take too long to write these posts. Leafsnail and Day both got theirs in)

PPE:
(YOU TOO LENGLON. Posting this, getting to Day and Lenglon is a sec)

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Lenglon

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #683 on: June 24, 2013, 10:12:44 pm »

Lenglon:
also, if you're so certain that i'm scum, where's the vote? You afraid to OMGUS me so blatently? worried it'll make you look "less town"? Oh wait, you don't want to confirm my theory that Nightcrafter is your scumbuddy do you?
I'm sorry, but I'm not exactly sure how the logic behind this works. How would voting for you cause Leafsnail to prove that I am his scumbuddy?
It actually wouldn't, but the psudo-logic behind the statement chained off of this:
My current working theory is that your scumbuddy is nightcrafter, and you're going to abandon your case on him with the excuse that it was mostly associative tells, leaving us with the impression that you two couldn't possibly be scumbuddies. that way even if we lynch one of you today you'll win tomorrow because the other one will be "clean". basically, as soon as you replaced in, you pushed very, very strongly for the lynch of our strongest town player while she wasn't there, while performing a low-pressure undefendable bus on your scumparter. you figured that all you needed to do to guarantee a scum win was remove the largest threat day 2 and make sure that either today or tomorrow we make a mislynch. I have no intentions of letting this happen.
reality is it wouldn't be proper proof, and I can't use it in a case against you, but I figured there's no harm in going fishing - he might drop some kind of tell as to who his scumbuddy is, whether it's you or not. Also, his total reluctance to say anything at all about you, yay or nay, despite how he repeatedly listed you as Vector's scumbuddy yesterday, seems off to me. I'm not decided on what exactly it means regarding if you're his scumbuddy or not, although I do think it's additional evidence that he's scum. He could simply be trying to frame you after all. the whole issue is WIFOM fuel at this point.
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((I don't think heating something that is right above us to a ridiculous degree is very smart. Worst case scenario we become +metal statues+. This is a finely crafted metal statue. It is encrusted with sharkmist and HMRC. On the item is an image of HMRC and Pancaek. Pancaek is laughing. The HMRC is melting. The artwork relates to the encasing of the HMRC in metal by Pancaek during the Mission of Many People.))

TheWetSheep

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #684 on: June 24, 2013, 10:16:38 pm »

Sorry about not posting for a while. As I'm pretty unsure about everyone, I'm doing a reread. I'll try to get my post out soon.

nightcrafter27

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #685 on: June 24, 2013, 11:00:14 pm »

Lenglon
Sheep: I left it on her on purpose. the day needed to end, and the two possible lynch people were either you, who I consider town because of shinigami's actions, or Vector, who wasn't defending herself very well, despite being given a full week to do so.
no, the points were perfectly fine. As I said earlier, my vote on Vector was no accident. the way they were presented, and the personality behind that presentation style, is what is calling you out as scum.
I did, see the above quote. Also, as I said before, over and over, your reasons themselves were fine. The way you presented them and pushed them, in other words how you used them, was the problem.

From my interpretation, these points aren't saying the same thing, and some don't seem to support your case. The first is a reason for voting Vector. Ok. But that doesn't really have much to do with the points you make. How does it show that Leafsnail's actions were scummy while his case was not?

The other two present reasons for you to have pressed Leafsnail and expressed your suspicions day 2. You didn't, and that is a big part of Leafsnail's case on you. The evidence you are trying to use against his arguments is shooting yourself in the foot here. Can you point to any post of yours where you said that you think Leafsnail is tunneling or trying to speed lynch Vector during day 2?

Also, his total reluctance to say anything at all about you, yay or nay, despite how he repeatedly listed you as Vector's scumbuddy yesterday, seems off to me. I'm not decided on what exactly it means regarding if you're his scumbuddy or not, although I do think it's additional evidence that he's scum.

I too wait for him to reply to me. But if you go with the presented logic, you can effectively make me into everyone's scumbuddy.
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TheWetSheep

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #686 on: June 24, 2013, 11:54:45 pm »

Lenglon:
Sheep: could you please restate why you voted for Vector yesterday?
Partly Leafsnail's case on her, that she was a leader of the Ranger lynch when she should have known better, and then she came out with a case on me that was pretty terrible and seemed forced.

Nightcrafter:
TWS:

NightCrafter: I suppose you're even more sure I'm scum now. But to address your accusations of bandwagoning, I'll pose you the same question I asked Vector that never got answered:

Also, here's a hypothetical situation: Person A has built a very good case on Person B, to the point where you are 80% certain Person B is scum. However, you can't find anything suspicious about Person B besides what Person A has already pointed out. What do you do?

Look for more evidence, and clear up that final 20%. Double check things that haven't been brought up. Find unique evidence that support's Person A's arguments. Everyone here is human, and everyone will have differing opinions on suspicious behavior. It is very unlikely that someone would be able to compile a case covering everything suspicious ever.

But yeah, I still think you're scum. TheWetSheep
And that's what I tried to do, when I had time. So what exactly is your case on me?

Quote
Find unique evidence that support's Person A's arguments.
Oh look. Another thing that's exactly what I did, at the very beginning. I looked at the beginning through Vector's posts and saw that it was very unlikely that she put that much thought into the setup but missed that there was a cop.



I took a a rather different approach in trying to find scum this time. I wrote down a list of all the possible scumteams(excluding me, of course):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And I looked through interactions between them. I saw some pretty genuine-looking conversations between Lenglon and Griffionday, and Griffionday and Nightcrafter, so I'll take those pairs off for now. Also, I'm getting a pretty strong town read off of Demdemeh/Nightcrafter(some reasoning below), so I'll take off the pairs that include him. That leaves us with two pairs: Lenglon-Leafsnail and Griffionday-Leafsnail. In Day 2 Griffionday and Leafsnail had a long debate about playstyle that wasn't really related to the game, and I can't really see that being a conversation between to mafia-buddies. That leaves a Lenglon-Leafsnail team.

I know this isn't really conclusive reasoning, but I spent a long time re-reading the thread and I'm going to leave it at this for now. I'll try to do some pressuring/questions soon.

NC/Dem's Towniness:
That last statement about town taking out the power roles just kind of clinches it for me, I think. RangerCado is the scum cop, and GDay is his godfather friend.
Dem: You do know theres no guarentee for a godfather right? It could be a roleblocker instead. For all we know there could be the Mafia Role Cop and a Regular Mafia only. The only one that seems guarunteed is the Role Cop judging from pre-game conversation.

Yeah. You're right. I just glanced back again and noticed that, too. Which role does GDay have, Cado, since you're the cop?

Here are the setups:
The one I suggested a while back was
2 of 3
One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

(Jailkeeper roleblocks and protects their target)
There is no Godfather or Roleblocker possible. I don't think scum would have missed that.



This post is kind of fragmented and probably doesn't answer everything, but I want to end it here. I'll try to flesh it out tomorrow.

Leafsnail

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #687 on: June 25, 2013, 06:06:06 am »

You did miss my questions for you though (I know I'm being slightly hypocritical by asking for advice on how to play, but I honestly want to know your opinion):
Sorry, I got caught up in responding to Lenglon

Leafsnail:
If your candidate clearly cannot be lynched then it's ok to try and work out which potential candidate is the most likely to be scum, and vote for them instead.  You should make it clear that this is what you are doing, though.
Alright, I think I can see that.  At what point should one do so?  24hrs? after one extension?
I can't really give you a hard and fast time.  It depends on the situation a bit.

If the town is heading for a no lynch through a tie and you just want to make sure somebody or your preferred candidate is lynched, then you can make a tie-breaker vote with just a few hours to go.  If the town is heading for a lynch on someone you strongly think is town and you're trying to rally a counter-wagon, then you need to switch with enough time to change people's minds.  I'd say you need at least 24 hours to have any real hope of convincing anyone, and I'd probably up that to 48 hours if you have to convince more than one person to switch.  That said, if you're positive the lynch you're pushing is a no-hoper then there's no real harm in switching to a secondary target immediately.

I kindof prefer games with majority hammervotes since they force the town to try and compromise on who they think is scum and I think that's useful, but they tend to have really long days.


Also: What did you think when Vector came up town?  Outside of focusing on the people who are attacking you for being wrong how do you typically respond to being wrong?  Because if this is your typical play style I can't imagine that this is the first time this has happened.
I was surprised that Vector would play that way as town, and I don't think there's really much else that can be said about mislynches.

Generally the best way to respond to being wrong is to simply shift your perspective with the new information in mind.  A mislynch plays out very differently depending on whether you're town or scum, so it's a good scumhunting opportunity.  In order to try and gain new information from it, it's best to
a) look at the people who were on the wagon, to see if anyone was supporting it dishonestly.  By this I mean that their reasoning was flawed to the point where they couldn't have honestly thought it, or that they were supporting the wagon in spite of distancing themselves from the outcome (you have to be careful to differentiate this from compromise play though).
b) look at anyone who was off the wagon but who seemed to be covertly supporting it.  By this I mean people who seemed to support the idea that the person being lynched was scum, but avoided actually voting them, and also people who maybe gave lip service to the idea that the person may have been town but didn't do anything substantial to try and prevent a lynch on them.

In this case, I did so, and the bad feeling I was developing about Lenglon yesterday due to his lurking grew.  The way he came out and directly contradicted himself today also puts him very firmly in category a).

I'll respond to Lenglon and nightcrafter in a new post.
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Leafsnail

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #688 on: June 25, 2013, 06:52:12 am »

yes it is, but that isn't part of my case. you calling me scum and yet refusing to vote me until I called you on it IS part of my case. It's a sign that you were so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works.
I really do not understand what you mean by "so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works".  Also you backed away from this statement after nightcrafter pushed you on it so nevermind.

You really should have thought that one through better, but I'm willing to buy that you didn't understand what I was saying back then.
I fully understood what you were saying back then.  You're just attempting to retroactively change what you said (funnily enough, to something you now agree is scummy), and I think that should be obvious to all other players.

No, No I could not. "useless" in this context means not scumhunting. Even with limited time Ford could have done far more than he did. yet he was unable to answer even the simplest of questions.
His play seems to me to be entirely indicative of a lack of time, and the onus is on you to show otherwise.

you replaced in, and then immediately tunneled two people who weren't even there, and flat refused to scumhunt anyone who could actually respond because you were worried that your tunneling targets might not get lynched if you did. hell, today you didn't even post anything until I voted you, at which point you then voted me for doing it and have been ignoring everyone else's questions ever since. I have yet to see you scumhunt, that seems pretty darn useless to me.
now then, in all of the above sections that I said I'd answer them in one big block down here, you assume I'm attacking your case on Vector. That's a load of crap. As I said in every single damn post I've made all of day 3.
What the fuck is this?  If I made a case that you agreed with and apparently still think was valid how can you say I wasn't scumhunting?  What is your definition of scumhunting if forming a valid case on somebody isn't it?  Why did you not vote me yesterday for doing this, if it was something I did?  You are contradicting yourself directly here.

I've already explained that I lost a post earlier in the day, which is why I didn't post for a while.  I missed a grand total of one question, too.

Yeah, I'm looking, and I don't see it. If you had something meaningful here, please explain it.
Your Case.
On Vector.
Was Fine.

Trying.
to Speedlynch her.
And Tunneling her.
To the exclusion.
Of all else.
Was the problem.
Except you never said this yesterday (incidentally speedlynches are impossible in a non-hammer game, so that accusation is total nonsense).  Making it obvious that you are chainlynching.  Which you've now agreed is scummy.  So thanks for agreeing you're scum, I guess.

The fact that you keep pushing this misrepresentation of what i'm saying is even more evidence that you're just trying to save your own scumbag skin at this point. There's no way you could realistically keep making that assumption after this many times I've clearly said otherwise. the only reason you're doing this is to try to push my statements out of context, and into a context you can protect yourself from better. that's scum reasoning, because you aren't even pretending to be looking for scum anymore and are just trying to defend yourself and save your own skin.
It's hilarious how badly you're misrepresenting the three points I made against you.  You said that Vector wasn't you favourite target, and that you were only comparing her to TWS as the least bad of two bad options.  I pointed out that everything in the post you made seemed to imply that Vector was your favourite target.  In other words, that you are lying.

Now you're trying to twist my points to mean something else.  It's honestly getting really hard to talk to you, because not only are you retroactively changing and lying about what you did yesterday, but you're also starting to retroactively change and lie about your argumentation today.

I'll make another post for nightcrafter/TWS
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Leafsnail

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Re: BM XLI: Day 3: To the Tune of Mo(u)rning
« Reply #689 on: June 25, 2013, 06:59:42 am »

Leafsnail, do you have a secondary scumpick, or is it still me? If so, do you have new evidence?
Not really.  I'm pretty sure Griffionday is town, which leaves only you and TWS.  I haven't had a detailed look at interactions with Lenglon yet, but my gut instinct is that a TWS/Lenglon team makes more sense than a you/Lenglon team.

That leaves a Lenglon-Leafsnail team.
Why vote me instead of Lenglon?
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