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[TheWetSheep]

Wait. Day ends today?

Extend. I know it's not enough, but seeing as I'm the only player who's posted, can we get an extension anyway?

[Vector]

It ends next Wednesday.

However, activity is necessary, sooner rather than later.

[TheWetSheep]

Oh, I see. I was looking at the date for the end of the night, not today.

Withdraw extension request

[Griffionday]

Sheep:

Griffionday: If it's obvious that your lynch target isn't being lynched, do you think it's a good idea to keep your vote on them or to switch to someone less scummy but who has a possibility of being lynched? Because it looks to me like you were keeping your vote in the background.

If you're convinced that your target is scum then in my opinion you should keep your vote on them.  My problem was that I only had a clear read on Leaf, and didn't have enough of an opinion of the main candidates to weigh in and use my vote properly.

I don't think its a good idea to switch your vote just to lynch somebody you don't have a clear read on, as the goal isn't to lynch someone in general, rather to lynch scum.  This shouldn't have been a problem as I SHOULD have had reads on everyone.  But I didn't, so I missed an opportunity to tie the vote to force MYLO or better yet lynch scum and prevent this from happening.

Also, why did you not respond to most of Leafsnail's long post?

You mean the one where he said the following?

I will briefly respond to each of your points, and after that I'm not engaging you anymore since you clearly will not be convinced by anything.

I responded to his questions as far as I'm aware, and I'm going to hunt for the other scum.

Same question you asked Leafsnail: What are you thinking now?  Why are you asking a question that is either RVS type or a request for him to do something you can copy?
Lenglon:
Toward the end of yesterday you seem primarily to be waiting around on Vector to have her respond.  Why did you not request an extension?


Night:

The reason I asked was that it seemed odd to say that you knew of a lot of suspicious actions without bringing up any specifically. It looked like you were egging Leafsnail on, telling him that his reasons for a lynch were only a few of many without presenting the many.

Egging him on despite telling him that his reads were shallow and based on a precursory examination?  That's wasn't my intention, no.

[Lenglon]

Sheep: I left it on her on purpose. the day needed to end, and the two possible lynch people were either you, who I consider town because of shinigami's actions, or Vector, who wasn't defending herself very well, despite being given a full week to do so.
Day:because she was taking so long to respond that I didn't think she ever would. also the day had gone on so long that we were losing players to simple boredom and inactivity. case in point, Pup's total lack of activity and interest at the end.
Vector: Aren't you dead? Anyway, I waited to post on purpose this time, I wanted to see who Leaf would push a lynch on to confirm a theory of mine, but you're right. I've waited more than long enough.
Leaf: you're scum because you pushed so hard for Vector's lynch while she wasn't here, mislabeled and misattributed her actions with the justification that she "should have known better", and had such narrow tunnel vision. My current working theory is that your scumbuddy is nightcrafter, and you're going to abandon your case on him with the excuse that it was mostly associative tells, leaving us with the impression that you two couldn't possibly be scumbuddies. that way even if we lynch one of you today you'll win tomorrow because the other one will be "clean". basically, as soon as you replaced in, you pushed very, very strongly for the lynch of our strongest town player while she wasn't there, while performing a low-pressure undefendable bus on your scumparter. you figured that all you needed to do to guarantee a scum win was remove the largest threat day 2 and make sure that either today or tomorrow we make a mislynch. I have no intentions of letting this happen.
Day: Each day, at day end, you were voting solo for someone. Why?
Sheep: could you please restate why you voted for Vector yesterday?

[Vector]

Vector: Aren't you dead? Anyway, I waited to post on purpose this time, I wanted to see who Leaf would push a lynch on to confirm a theory of mine, but you're right. I've waited more than long enough.

Yes, I am.  I'm also an IC, and I've got responsibilities alive or dead.

>:I

[nightcrafter27]

Now that RL isn't trying to eat me...

TWS:

NightCrafter: I suppose you're even more sure I'm scum now. But to address your accusations of bandwagoning, I'll pose you the same question I asked Vector that never got answered:

Also, here's a hypothetical situation: Person A has built a very good case on Person B, to the point where you are 80% certain Person B is scum. However, you can't find anything suspicious about Person B besides what Person A has already pointed out. What do you do?

Look for more evidence, and clear up that final 20%. Double check things that haven't been brought up. Find unique evidence that support's Person A's arguments. Everyone here is human, and everyone will have differing opinions on suspicious behavior. It is very unlikely that someone would be able to compile a case covering everything suspicious ever.

But yeah, I still think you're scum. TheWetSheep


Day:

Same question you asked Leafsnail: What are you thinking now?  Why are you asking a question that is either RVS type or a request for him to do something you can copy?

Actually, I am interested in TWS's question to Leafsnail as well. Due to Leafsnail's interaction based method of scumhunting, "What do you think now" seems to be a perfectly valid question. In fact, I would have asked it myself if I hadn't been beaten to the punch.


Now to re-read lot of things.

[Leafsnail]

Leaf: you're scum because you pushed so hard for Vector's lynch while she wasn't here, mislabeled and misattributed her actions with the justification that she "should have known better", and had such narrow tunnel vision.

OK, all my doubt is gone.  You are scum.

Why?  Because you supported the lynch on Vector yesterday with your vote.  If you actually believed what you are saying here (which is by the way a blatant echo of Griffionday's points), you should have brought it up yesterday, rather than voting Vector and ignoring me.  As it is, it's obvious you allowed (heck, directly helped cause) the lynch on Vector yesterday and are now planning to use it to get one on me too.  If the case on Vector was so terrible and my actions so obviously scum, why not say so yesterday?

You tried to make up some excuses in your last post, but I'm going to go ahead and say they're bullshit because you never mentioned them at the time.  If you really were reluctant to push the Vector lynch and thought I was the better candidate you could have said so.

I'll try and make a detailed post later about just how badly you're backpedaling, but I think I'll start with

Leafsnail's theory of a Nightcrafter/Vector scumteam makes a lot of sense

If you're convinced that your target is scum then in my opinion you should keep your vote on them.  My problem was that I only had a clear read on Leaf, and didn't have enough of an opinion of the main candidates to weigh in and use my vote properly.

I don't think its a good idea to switch your vote just to lynch somebody you don't have a clear read on, as the goal isn't to lynch someone in general, rather to lynch scum.  This shouldn't have been a problem as I SHOULD have had reads on everyone.  But I didn't, so I missed an opportunity to tie the vote to force MYLO or better yet lynch scum and prevent this from happening.

If your candidate clearly cannot be lynched then it's ok to try and work out which potential candidate is the most likely to be scum, and vote for them instead.  You should make it clear that this is what you are doing, though.

[nightcrafter27]

Sheep: I left it on her on purpose. the day needed to end, and the two possible lynch people were either you, who I consider town because of shinigami's actions, or Vector, who wasn't defending herself very well, despite being given a full week to do so.

What did Shinigami do that made him look town? In my re-read, I found this:

You seem to be avoiding noticing that you're being buddied (something appears VERY scum to me).  What is your read on Shinigami?  Are you two REALLY that bad of a scum team that we know both of you before the day even technically starts?

My read on shinigami is possible scum. He's buddying me pretty thouroughly, but it doesn't feel like scum buddying. It feels like he's looking out for me because of the shared situation we were in last game, and the fact that we ended up buddying each other in that game too, with good cause, but it's of course possible that he's scum trying to win allies for later on, or give himself an alibi assuming I get lynched. The reason I'm giving him benefit of doubt is I have trouble envisioning a scum IC that would let him keep it up for this long without telling him that what he's doing is going to get himself lynched.

(This may have been cleared up and I just don't remember)

Day:because she was taking so long to respond that I didn't think she ever would. also the day had gone on so long that we were losing players to simple boredom and inactivity. case in point, Pup's total lack of activity and interest at the end.

So you didn't vote to extend because....Vector was inactive? Isn't trying to lynch someone unable to defend themselves part of your case on Leafsnail?

PPE: Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

[Lenglon]

Leaf: you're scum because you pushed so hard for Vector's lynch while she wasn't here, mislabeled and misattributed her actions with the justification that she "should have known better", and had such narrow tunnel vision.

OK, all my doubt is gone.  You are scum.

Why?  Because you supported the lynch on Vector yesterday with your vote.  If you actually believed what you are saying here (which is by the way a blatant echo of Griffionday's points), you should have brought it up yesterday, rather than voting Vector and ignoring me.  As it is, it's obvious you allowed (heck, directly helped cause) the lynch on Vector yesterday and are now planning to use it to get one on me too.  If the case on Vector was so terrible and my actions so obviously scum, why not say so yesterday?

because as I said Here I was pretty sure one of you were scum, but not both. My opinion on that has not changed, and Vector clearly was not scum. as for why I didn't bring those up earlier? Day already had for pages upon pages of the same arguments phrased slightly differently over and over. I saw no reason to waste my time, but that doesn't change at all the fact that they're true.

You tried to make up some excuses in your last post, but I'm going to go ahead and say they're bullshit because you never mentioned them at the time.  If you really were reluctant to push the Vector lynch and thought I was the better candidate you could have said so.

That's not what I said, don't try to put words in my mouth like that scumbag. You were not a better lynch canidate. Vector wasn't defending herself properly, and at the time she seemed the scummier of you two.

I'll try and make a detailed post later about just how badly you're backpedaling, but I think I'll start with

Leafsnail's theory of a Nightcrafter/Vector scumteam makes a lot of sense

Yes, that scum pair made sense at the time. If Vector had flipped scum I'd be voting Nightcrafter right now. However, clearly, she didn't. What this meant was that I had to re-evaluate who the scumteam was. The pairing that makes the most sense to me right now is you/Nightcrafter, for the reasons stated above.

also, if you're so certain that i'm scum, where's the vote? You afraid to OMGUS me so blatently? worried it'll make you look "less town"? Oh wait, you don't want to confirm my theory that Nightcrafter is your scumbuddy do you?

What did Shinigami do that made him look town?

Bravery. He did a lot of scummy things day 1, but they all made sense as town from my understanding of his personality. Even after people started to turn on him for it, he kept doing it. I'm certain that as scum he would have played far more conservatively. It was a read that I don't think I can get on most of you, but some people are easier for me to read than others. Shinigami is one of the easiest.

Day:because she was taking so long to respond that I didn't think she ever would. also the day had gone on so long that we were losing players to simple boredom and inactivity. case in point, Pup's total lack of activity and interest at the end.

So you didn't vote to extend because....Vector was inactive? Isn't trying to lynch someone unable to defend themselves part of your case on Leafsnail?

That is only one small part of it. When Leafsnail was pushing for a lynch on Vector, it was an attempt to speedlynch someone who was physically unable to defend themselves with accusations they'd never even see before they were lynched. when I decided to not extend, AGAIN, after i'd been the first one to extend  several times in a row to give more time for Vector, she had been back for a full week, and had proven herself to be unwilling to defend herself. she had her chance. in fact, she had more time to defend herself after coming back than most days last total. she still hadn't gotten around to properly responding. It seemed reasonable to think that she never would and reality is we were losing players. Pup hadn't posted anything at all in days, and everyone's posting rates had gone down tons. The day had to end or the game would die of apathy.

[Leafsnail]

also, if you're so certain that i'm scum, where's the vote? You afraid to OMGUS me so blatently? worried it'll make you look "less town"? Oh wait, you don't want to confirm my theory that Nightcrafter is your scumbuddy do you?

Sorry, I wrote a post yesterday in which I voted you and then managed to not post it somehow.  Lenglon.  Also OMGUS is a terrible non-tell and you know it.

On the same note:

Leafsnail: I take it you're surprised Vector flipped town. So am I. What are you thinking now?

That I'll have to talk to Vector about claims and counter-claims after this game.  Also, that Lenglon is pretty blatantly scum for helping to lynch Vector but now attempting to distance himself from it.  I think there's also still a pretty decent chance of nightcrafter being scum.

because as I said Here I was pretty sure one of you were scum, but not both. My opinion on that has not changed, and Vector clearly was not scum. as for why I didn't bring those up earlier? Day already had for pages upon pages of the same arguments phrased slightly differently over and over. I saw no reason to waste my time, but that doesn't change at all the fact that they're true.

Oh so you are chaining lynches in the stupidest and wrongest way possible.  Got it.

Hint: "If X is town then Y is scum" is always a terrible way to play, unless you are a mafia member like Lenglon here.  "If X flips scum then Y is scum" doesn't have the same problems because it involves lynching scum.

That's not what I said, don't try to put words in my mouth like that scumbag. You were not a better lynch canidate. Vector wasn't defending herself properly, and at the time she seemed the scummier of you two.

So why are you now faulting me for voting her?  The fact that Vector is town now retroactively makes the points you agreed with at the time wrong and scummy?

Yes, that scum pair made sense at the time. If Vector had flipped scum I'd be voting Nightcrafter right now. However, clearly, she didn't. What this meant was that I had to re-evaluate who the scumteam was. The pairing that makes the most sense to me right now is you/Nightcrafter, for the reasons stated above.

The reasons you stated are things that you should've said yesterday.  If you agreed with Griffionday, you should've supported his argumentation then.

That is only one small part of it. When Leafsnail was pushing for a lynch on Vector, it was an attempt to speedlynch someone who was physically unable to defend themselves with accusations they'd never even see before they were lynched. when I decided to not extend, AGAIN, after i'd been the first one to extend  several times in a row to give more time for Vector, she had been back for a full week, and had proven herself to be unwilling to defend herself. she had her chance. in fact, she had more time to defend herself after coming back than most days last total. she still hadn't gotten around to properly responding. It seemed reasonable to think that she never would and reality is we were losing players. Pup hadn't posted anything at all in days, and everyone's posting rates had gone down tons. The day had to end or the game would die of apathy.

If you thought any of this stuff you should have said it at the time.  As it is, it's painfully obvious that you're making it up.

[Lenglon]

OMGUS is a terrible non-tell and you know it.

yes it is, but that isn't part of my case. you calling me scum and yet refusing to vote me until I called you on it IS part of my case. It's a sign that you were so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works.

Oh so you are chaining lynches in the stupidest and wrongest way possible.  Got it.
Hint: "If X is town then Y is scum" is always a terrible way to play, unless you are a mafia member like Lenglon here.  "If X flips scum then Y is scum" doesn't have the same problems because it involves lynching scum.

Right. It's terrible. With no explanation or reasoning, and only mentioned HOW many days after the linked post? seriously, if you're going to try to dismiss my points I suggest you use more than "Nuh-uh!"

So why are you now faulting me for voting her?  The fact that Vector is town now retroactively makes the points you agreed with at the time wrong and scummy?

no, the points were perfectly fine. As I said earlier, my vote on Vector was no accident. the way they were presented, and the personality behind that presentation style, is what is calling you out as scum.

The reasons you stated are things that you should've said yesterday.  If you agreed with Griffionday, you should've supported his argumentation then.

-snip-

If you thought any of this stuff you should have said it at the time.  As it is, it's painfully obvious that you're making it up.

So you want me to say "Yeah! what he said!" every time someone says something remotely accurate? please, attempt to maintain at least a loose grip on reality.

and your saying that I needed to justify not acting at the time I didn't act is pretty darn messed up. the time you're quoting is the first time someone asked me about it. If I asked sheep, or day, or nightcrafter, why THEY didn't extend yesterday, they'd have to answer the question for the first time too. they didn't have any justification at the time either, so obviously whatever they answer, no matter WHAT is is, is "painfully obvious" that they're making it up!

you're stretching, desperately trying to save your own skin by clinging to anything you can find, and in doing so you're giving yourself away scumbag.

[Leafsnail]

yes it is, but that isn't part of my case. you calling me scum and yet refusing to vote me until I called you on it IS part of my case. It's a sign that you were so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works.

Whatever you are attempting to accuse me of is a bullshit non-tell and you know it.

Right. It's terrible. With no explanation or reasoning, and only mentioned HOW many days after the linked post? seriously, if you're going to try to dismiss my points I suggest you use more than "Nuh-uh!"

It's a really basic principle of mafia.  "If X is town then we'll lynch Y" is a standard mafia tactic to chain multiple town lynches together, and if you're town you shouldn't encourage it.  If you're scum you shouldn't do it also because it marks you as scum.

There's really no justification for doing it as town either - it's perfectly possible for a townie to be mistaken, so there's really no situation in which chaining lynches like that makes any sense at all.

no, the points were perfectly fine. As I said earlier, my vote on Vector was no accident. the way they were presented, and the personality behind that presentation style, is what is calling you out as scum.

So you bandwagoned with somebody you thought was scum, right.

So you want me to say "Yeah! what he said!" every time someone says something remotely accurate? please, attempt to maintain at least a loose grip on reality.

No, but if you fully support every aspect of someone's argumentation I expect you to say so rather than acting in the exact opposite manner.

and your saying that I needed to justify not acting at the time I didn't act is pretty darn messed up. the time you're quoting is the first time someone asked me about it. If I asked sheep, or day, or nightcrafter, why THEY didn't extend yesterday, they'd have to answer the question for the first time too. they didn't have any justification at the time either, so obviously whatever they answer, no matter WHAT is is, is "painfully obvious" that they're making it up!

If you're voting someone you don't actually think is scum then that is definitely something you should explain at the time, particularly if you're sheeping someone who you think is using scummy reasoning.

you're stretching, desperately trying to save your own skin by clinging to anything you can find, and in doing so you're giving yourself away scumbag.

You have literally no argumentation for why I'm scum other than "He was wrong about Vector, and even though I was also equally wrong about Vector he's scum and I'm not because I didn't actually agree with him about Vector"

[Lenglon]

Whatever you are attempting to accuse me of is a bullshit non-tell and you know it.

"Nuh-uh!"

It's a really basic principle of mafia.  "If X is town then we'll lynch Y" is a standard mafia tactic to chain multiple town lynches together, and if you're town you shouldn't encourage it.  If you're scum you shouldn't do it also because it marks you as scum.

There's really no justification for doing it as town either - it's perfectly possible for a townie to be mistaken, so there's really no situation in which chaining lynches like that makes any sense at all.

"It's scummy because I say it is!" - also, you really should explain why you didn't say anything when I explained my reasoning way back then. All I'm seeing at this point is panicked scum. If there was an actual problem with that kind of reasoning you would have said something about it at the time.

So you bandwagoned with somebody you thought was scum, right.

I avoided a tie and of the two lynch targets, voted the one that I wasn't sure was town. Remember this?

Hunuh, well, Lynch vote time.

Vector, individually, still reads as ^%^&#$%^ whenever I read her posts, but Nightcrafter does seem to be following Vector's lead quite tightly, and Vector's actions yesterday were kinda scummy in retrospect.
Nightcrafter attacked Leafsnail on rather weak grounds, then proceeded to follow Vector in voting for Sheep.
Vector has not expanded on her case on Sheep, her accusations of sheep seem rather weak to me, and I'm pretty certain Sheep is town, mostly because of Shinigami's actions earlier.
Leafsnail's theory of a Nightcrafter/Vector scumteam makes a lot of sense
Vector's rapid-vote for Ranger really was quite suspicious
if the people to choose between for a lynch are Sheep and Vector, I know where my vote is going.
I think a two-week-long day is more than long enough, Vector, you've had a week to talk, you've said barely anything, and I dont think your case on Sheep holds well. my vote is staying on Vector tonight.

Pup: Speak up, vote someone, extend if you have too (we're only one vote away), but please participate. day's about to end and you aren't doing anything.

notice that the only people I'm comparing are Sheep, who as I've said over and over, I think is town, and Vector, who I couldn't read well. Now then, lets look at the end of day votes:
votes on Sheep: 2
votes on Vector: 3 (including myself as the last one to vote)
Now then, lets see if you can put two and two together.

As I said before, I'm working on the basic premise that one of the two of you is scum. I got a mildly scummy vibe from you, and no real read at all of Vector, which after all this time is reason for suspicion by itself. I was ok with a lynch of either one of you, because if we got the first lynch right, we'd have lynched scum and that's that, or if we got it wrong, we'd get it right today.

No, but if you fully support every aspect of someone's argumentation I expect you to say so rather than acting in the exact opposite manner.

not every aspect, Day was stretching pretty hard and brought up meaningless stuff many times. The problem I have is the way you pushed for us to lynch Vector before she got back and could defend herself, paired with the way you refused to hunt for scum among any of the people other than your two lynch targets. toss in the fact that your playerslot was totally idle before you replaced in, and you've actually been quite useless all game. I don't think that is coincidence, I think you're scum.

If you're voting someone you don't actually think is scum then that is definitely something you should explain at the time, particularly if you're sheeping someone who you think is using scummy reasoning.

I did, see the above quote. Also, as I said before, over and over, your reasons themselves were fine. The way you presented them and pushed them, in other words how you used them, was the problem.

You have literally no argumentation for why I'm scum other than "He was wrong about Vector, and even though I was also equally wrong about Vector he's scum and I'm not because I didn't actually agree with him about Vector"

You haven't been paying attention if you think that's all I'm saying.

[Griffionday]

Lenglon:

Day: Each day, at day end, you were voting solo for someone. Why?

I wasn't actually: Day 1 Ranger was voting for Demdemeh as well as me.

But that's not what you wanted to know: Day 1 I was applying pressure to Demdemeh to see if he would crack.  I was never satisfied by his behavior, so my vote never left him.  Day 2, I hadn't moved on from Leaf; so my vote was still on him.
Night:

Actually, I am interested in TWS's question to Leafsnail as well. Due to Leafsnail's interaction based method of scumhunting, "What do you think now" seems to be a perfectly valid question. In fact, I would have asked it myself if I hadn't been beaten to the punch.

Hmm... good point.  Sorry Sheep.
Leafsnail:

If your candidate clearly cannot be lynched then it's ok to try and work out which potential candidate is the most likely to be scum, and vote for them instead.  You should make it clear that this is what you are doing, though.

Alright, I think I can see that.  At what point should one do so?  24hrs? after one extension?

Also: What did you think when Vector came up town?  Outside of focusing on the people who are attacking you for being wrong how do you typically respond to being wrong?  Because if this is your typical play style I can't imagine that this is the first time this has happened.