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[Lenglon]

From my interpretation, these points aren't saying the same thing, and some don't seem to support your case. The first is a reason for voting Vector. Ok. But that doesn't really have much to do with the points you make. How does it show that Leafsnail's actions were scummy while his case was not?

The other two present reasons for you to have pressed Leafsnail and expressed your suspicions day 2. You didn't, and that is a big part of Leafsnail's case on you. The evidence you are trying to use against his arguments is shooting yourself in the foot here. Can you point to any post of yours where you said that you think Leafsnail is tunneling or trying to speed lynch Vector during day 2?

no, I cannot. I did not weigh in on the subject in any way, for or against Leafsnail, at the time. the subject never came up, and Day covered it in far more detail than I felt was necessary. Since Leaf wasn't one of the day's lynch targets, I didn't bother to say anything on the matter.

Also, his total reluctance to say anything at all about you, yay or nay, despite how he repeatedly listed you as Vector's scumbuddy yesterday, seems off to me. I'm not decided on what exactly it means regarding if you're his scumbuddy or not, although I do think it's additional evidence that he's scum.

I too wait for him to reply to me. But if you go with the presented logic, you can effectively make me into everyone's scumbuddy.

Considering that, as I said when I presented it, the logic is very flawed, this is not surprising to me. why did you crop out the section where I mentioned the entire thing was nothing but WIFOM fuel?

yes it is, but that isn't part of my case. you calling me scum and yet refusing to vote me until I called you on it IS part of my case. It's a sign that you were so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works.

I really do not understand what you mean by "so focused on looking like town that you forgot how scumhunting works".  Also you backed away from this statement after nightcrafter pushed you on it so nevermind.

the hell? nightcrafter never pushed me on this you moron. It remains part of my case. you have been consistently so focused on defense that you haven't been bothering to hunt for scum. This has been demonstrated over and over throughout today and yesterday. I've pointed out many instances of you doing this and you have yet to respond to them to my satisfaction. the quoted instance is simply one example of this.

You really should have thought that one through better, but I'm willing to buy that you didn't understand what I was saying back then.

I fully understood what you were saying back then.  You're just attempting to retroactively change what you said (funnily enough, to something you now agree is scummy), and I think that should be obvious to all other players.

Since when has "One of these two is scum, but not both" not implied "If I can prove one of these is town, the other is scum"? you've been reading all kinds of random implied messages into my statements everywhere else, and yet you couldn't figure out this pretty damn basic one? That isn't even remotely plausible.

No, No I could not. "useless" in this context means not scumhunting. Even with limited time Ford could have done far more than he did. yet he was unable to answer even the simplest of questions.

His play seems to me to be entirely indicative of a lack of time, and the onus is on you to show otherwise.

fair point, and I don't have anything new to mention on the subject, dropping.

What the fuck is this?  If I made a case that you agreed with and apparently still think was valid how can you say I wasn't scumhunting?  What is your definition of scumhunting if forming a valid case on somebody isn't it?  Why did you not vote me yesterday for doing this, if it was something I did?  You are contradicting yourself directly here.

why didn't I vote you? because although you were using your case wrongly, the case itself was pretty good. I didn't have anything new to add to the conversation and I wasn't ready to lynch vote. Vector failed to respond to your accusations so I ended up pressure voting her, which changed to a lynch vote when I wasn't satisfied with her answers. It's really not that complicated.

I've already explained that I lost a post earlier in the day, which is why I didn't post for a while.  I missed a grand total of one question, too.

Yeah, I'm SURE you lost a post before my vote on you. It totally wasn't an OMGUS reaction when you voted me... using nothing but the fact that how DARE I vote you after voting for vector yesterday for why you're voting me. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Lying Scumbag.

Except you never said this yesterday (incidentally speedlynches are impossible in a non-hammer game, so that accusation is total nonsense).  Making it obvious that you are chainlynching.  Which you've now agreed is scummy.  So thanks for agreeing you're scum, I guess.

I never said anything on the subject yesterday... at all. neither for it nor against it. Why? because nobody asked, and you weren't up for lynch. If you want to call me a liar, please, link me to the lie.
secondly, all I said was that I was willing to drop my reasoning that was based on If Vector is Town, then Leafsnail is scum. I'm really sick of you trying to shove words into my mouth.

It's hilarious how badly you're misrepresenting the three points I made against you.  You said that Vector wasn't you favourite target

when did I say that? link please. right now you're just crazy, panicked, doomed scum.

and that you were only comparing her to TWS as the least bad of two bad options.

nope. never said that was the least bad of two bad options. there was a completely horrible one, and a decent, but not great, one. the decision between the two of them was easy.

I pointed out that everything in the post you made seemed to imply that Vector was your favourite target.  In other words, that you are lying.

Vector was my preferred lynch choice, just above you. I fail to see the problem.


ok, working off the assumption that Nightcrafter is simply being framed by Leaf, which is what I think is happening from the way Leaf refused to say anything at all on the matter, I have a problem. I just eliminated all possibilities for who his scumbuddy could be. Sheep is town, Day Vs Leaf from yesterday pretty clearly shows they aren't scumbuddies, and Leaf went out of his way to frame Nightcrafter as scum, which means he's town.

one of those assumptions has to be wrong, so...

Day: Do you think Nightcrafter is being framed by Leaf? why or why not?

Nightcrafter: Could you please re-summarize why Sheep is scum for me?

Sheep: How likely do you think it is that the argument between Day and Leaf from yesterday was faked?

[Leafsnail]

I got a mildly scummy vibe from you, and no real read at all of Vector

[nightcrafter27]

PFP

Lenglon: I cropped out the part about WIFOM because it was irrelevant to te point I was making. I was simply saying that trying to base suspicions off of who thought I was scum is useless because everybody thought I was scum.

[nightcrafter27]

And I will have a bigger post later, restating my case on TWS

[Lenglon]

I got a mildly scummy vibe from you, and no real read at all of Vector

You really want to try to pull that? You really think that cuts it? how about you put that back in context moron.

As I said before, I'm working on the basic premise that one of the two of you is scum. I got a mildly scummy vibe from you, and no real read at all of Vector, which after all this time is reason for suspicion by itself. I was ok with a lynch of either one of you, because if we got the first lynch right, we'd have lynched scum and that's that, or if we got it wrong, we'd get it right today.

how the hell does that equate to me saying I thought Vector was a bad lynch choice? I said right there that Vector was one of my top lynch choices, and I've stood by my statement that I voted Vector very much on purpose all day. you keep pushing me on this, and I'm really, really tired of having to answer the same accusation over and over and over. At this point, I see no reason to bother responding to this accusation anymore unless someone other than you brings it up. you're stuck in your own personal fairyland where having the arrogance to vote for you equates to scummyness. Grow up scumbag, and get a real case.

[Leafsnail]

The context doesn't make it any better, and in fact your new explanation makes it worse.  Apparently, your top lynch candidate was someone who you had no read on at all.  You're saying that Vector, someone you didn't have a scumread on, was your top pick for the lynch.  Then your second pick was someone you did have a scumread on.  Why?  Why the fuck were you trying to lynch someone you didn't see as scummy over someone you did see as scummy?  Like, you didn't have a scumread on Vector, but you decided to trust the scumread of the person you regarded as the scummiest player in the game on her?

I'll try and go through what you said in your previous post tomorrow, but this is really a massive contradiction that sinks you.  Here is what you originally said on the subject:

So you bandwagoned with somebody you thought was scum, right.

I avoided a tie and of the two lynch targets, voted the one that I wasn't sure was town. Remember this?

Tell me this doesn't strongly imply that Vector wasn't your top choice.  Why wouldn't you say "Vector was my top choice as scum" instead of mentioning that it would be a tie otherwise?  If Vector was your top choice then the fact it would be a tie if you didn't vote her wouldn't be a factor at all.  Why would you say that you "I wasn't sure [Vector] was town" as opposed to "I thought Vector was scum"?  If she was your top choice then you should have been able to make a more solid statement than that, unless you felt sure everyone else in the game was town (except this would contradict you saying that you thought I was scummy at the time).

notice that the only people I'm comparing are Sheep, who as I've said over and over, I think is town, and Vector, who I couldn't read well.

And again, this strongly implies that Vector wasn't your top choice, otherwise why would you emphasize that you're only comparing her to TWS?  If she was really your top choice then who you were comparing her to would be completely irrelevant - she'd win in any contest.

Basically, you clearly tried to change tack in post #673 (to "I didn't really want to make the Vector vote, she was the least bad of two options") in order to better defend yourself against a bandwagoning allegation, but then switched back afterwards when it became clear that I had noticed your ruse.  Can you explain how post #673 can be read in a way that implies "Vector was my top choice" and not "stop bashing me for my Vector vote, she wasn't my top choice"?

Finally, I'd like to point out the chainlynching logic in that post.  You've since abandoned that logic, but you haven't explained how you arrived at it in the first place.  My reasoning, which you appeared to fully accept, suggested that chainlynching logic is something that generally comes from mafia members as you cannot arrive at it rationally.  How did you arrive at it, if not by being a mafia member looking for mislynches, then?

[Lenglon]

Ignoring your pile of horseshit about my vector vote, as per what I said last post.

Finally, I'd like to point out the chainlynching logic in that post.  You've since abandoned that logic, but you haven't explained how you arrived at it in the first place.  My reasoning, which you appeared to fully accept, suggested that chainlynching logic is something that generally comes from mafia members as you cannot arrive at it rationally.  How did you arrive at it, if not by being a mafia member looking for mislynches, then?

Assumption 1: Experienced ICs will consistently arrive at identical conclusions regarding basic aspects of Mafia.
Assumption 2: ICs are practiced enough at lying that they usually will not be caught by a non-IC
Assumption 3: A scum IC will not call out another scum IC for previously undetected scummy behavior.
Assumption 4: the proper way to react to a Day 1 cop claim is a basic aspect of Mafia.
Assumption 5: an IC will usually not nightkill the obvious target if there is a role with a protect in the game.

A) Follow up to 2: the biggest threat to a scum IC is the town IC
B) Follow up to A + 5: a scum IC will attempt to lynch the town IC if the Jailer/Doctor is alive, rather than nightkill them.

Conclusion from 3: Vector + Leafsnail is not the scumteam.
Conclusion from 4 + 1: If Leafsnail is town, Vector is scum.
Conclusion from 1 + B: If Vector is town, Leafsnail is scum.

Final conclusion: Either Leafsnail or Vector is scum, but not both.

[TheWetSheep]

Leafsnail:

That leaves a Lenglon-Leafsnail team.

Why vote me instead of Lenglon?

Wow. I was expecting a grand defense, demanding I back up my claims, saying that my methods were bad and untrustworthy, and so on. Instead, I get this. Simple: The two pairings I thought were most likely were you-Lenglon and you-Griffionday. I chose the common person.

Lenglon:

Sheep: How likely do you think it is that the argument between Day and Leaf from yesterday was faked?

Not that likely, but possible. I know they're both very capable players, but Griffionday doesn't usually take many risks. I could totally see Leafsnail bussing his scumbuddy at this point, though.


Leafsnail: Why did you address Lenglon very little during Day 2, despite her being your choice for scum if Vector wasn't?

[Leafsnail]

Ignoring your pile of horseshit about my vector vote, as per what I said last post.

Ignore the thing that conclusively proves you're a liar, you mean?  Yeah I guess that's pretty good for you.  You can't explain post #673 and you know it.

Assumption 1: Experienced ICs will consistently arrive at identical conclusions regarding basic aspects of Mafia.
Assumption 2: ICs are practiced enough at lying that they usually will not be caught by a non-IC
Assumption 3: A scum IC will not call out another scum IC for previously undetected scummy behavior.
Assumption 4: the proper way to react to a Day 1 cop claim is a basic aspect of Mafia.
Assumption 5: an IC will usually not nightkill the obvious target if there is a role with a protect in the game.

A) Follow up to 2: the biggest threat to a scum IC is the town IC
B) Follow up to A + 5: a scum IC will attempt to lynch the town IC if the Jailer/Doctor is alive, rather than nightkill them.

Conclusion from 3: Vector + Leafsnail is not the scumteam.
Conclusion from 4 + 1: If Leafsnail is town, Vector is scum.
Conclusion from 1 + B: If Vector is town, Leafsnail is scum.

Final conclusion: Either Leafsnail or Vector is scum, but not both.

Assumption 1 is patently nonsense and you know it.  Everything else kindof rests on that!

Wow. I was expecting a grand defense, demanding I back up my claims, saying that my methods were bad and untrustworthy, and so on. Instead, I get this. Simple: The two pairings I thought were most likely were you-Lenglon and you-Griffionday. I chose the common person.

Why were you expecting me to say your methods are bad and untrustworthy?  Heck, I think I agree with almost all of your reasoning!  Good work on constructing that case, really.  It just needs a little refinement.  Let me just run through it point by point.

And I looked through interactions between them. I saw some pretty genuine-looking conversations between Lenglon and Griffionday, and Griffionday and Nightcrafter, so I'll take those pairs off for now.

Sure, Griffionday looks really town so I agree with this.

Also, I'm getting a pretty strong town read off of Demdemeh/Nightcrafter(some reasoning below), so I'll take off the pairs that include him.

Hm, are you?  Ok, fair enough.  I think nightcrafter has been getting better too.

That leaves us with two pairs: Lenglon-Leafsnail and Griffionday-Leafsnail. In Day 2 Griffionday and Leafsnail had a long debate about playstyle that wasn't really related to the game, and I can't really see that being a conversation between to mafia-buddies. That leaves a Lenglon-Leafsnail team.

Well, I agree with the bit about me/Griffionday.  Griffionday looks town and I'm town, so that doesn't seem like a very likely team.  However, I think you should critically analyze the final team you have left - does it really seem likely for mafia members to crossvote violently at lylo, when they could much more easily switch to another target?  I'd say it doesn't, so it's probably fair to eliminate that team.

The weakness of your case is that you failed to consider the other possible teams, but hey, nobody's perfect.  I'll just add them in for you now.

7. TheWetSheep-nightcrafter
8. TheWetSheep-Leafsnail
9. TheWetSheep-Griffionday
10. TheWetSheep-Lenglon

But if nightcrafter looks town, I guess we can eliminate 7.  And we both know that 8 isn't true.  Griffionday looks town so I'll eliminate 9.  And hey, that leaves us with one option, option 10!  Your reasoning was pretty solid, I wouldn't be so quick to sell yourself short.

Serioustalk: I don't see how you could arrive at Lenglon/Leafsnail as a likely team by pair analysis, particularly considering that we are crossvoting at lylo (which is a far better reason to discount a team than anything you listed).  Is there some really weird gambit going on here or what?  In other words, if I am to accept your argument, I naturally arrive at the conclusion that you are scum.  I'd say in fact that a TWS/Lenglon team is looking pretty good, in fact - if he's on your "prime suspect team" then why aren't you pressing him at all?  You literally have not said a single thing to him regarding your suspicion.

I believe I can easily explain both of these observations (that you arrived at a really bizarre scumpair via pair analysis, and that you aren't bothering to pressure one member of your preferred pair at all).  You wanted to find a reason to do a 180 and support a lynch on me today in spite of following me yesterday, but didn't want to go down a similar route to Lenglon who had run into trouble.  So instead you come up with a bullshit method (well, maybe not entirely bullshit - the scumteams you were striking out were actually genuinely not scumteams afterall, since they didn't involve you) and apply it selectively in order to come up with an excuse to vote me.

You aren't attacking Lenglon because he's the other leading candidate to be lynched today, and you'd really rather lynch a townie today and sew the game up.  I really cannot see any other reason why you'd do this.

Leafsnail: Why did you address Lenglon very little during Day 2, despite her being your choice for scum if Vector wasn't?

Because I thought Vector was scum at the time, and I didn't see a Lenglon/Vector scumteam as credible.  Also Lenglon was lurking very effectively and escaping my notice for a lot of the day.

[Lenglon]

Assumption 1 is patently nonsense and you know it.  Everything else kindof rests on that!

Assumption 1 was most of your case on Vector. Vector's reasoning for what to do when Ranger claimed cop didn't match you own. You objected to this, violently. if Assumption 1 is patently nonsense, why did you make a lynch case out of it?

-Sheep's pair analysis-

valid point, I have nothing to add on the matter at this time, but doing want people freaking out if/when I bring this up again later this entire statement is nothing but a waste of space, I shouldn't have to bother saying it at all.

Because I thought Vector was scum at the time, and I didn't see a Lenglon/Vector scumteam as credible.

Why?

Also Lenglon was lurking very effectively and escaping my notice for a lot of the day.

I requested replacement for a reason. since you're the one who asked for me to remove the request I'd think you'd remember that.

[nightcrafter27]

Distilled version of why TWS is scum from day 2: he had no arguments on Vector besides those that Leafsnail made, nor did he provide any new evidence to supplement the arguments he was agreeing with. He focused only on Vector's voting Cado, and didn't use anything from the rest of day 1. TWS also buddied Leafsnail pretty obviously.

(It seems that TWS and I have conflicting views on the uniqueness of the evidence he did provide. He thinks it's new, I think its still Leafsnail's.)


My current theory is that TWS is scumbuddies with Lenglon. I had been keeping this to myself to see if either would let anything slip, but Leafsnail's brought it out already. No more passive observation for me.

First, TWS jumped on to voting Vector with Leafsnail's case. Originally I had thought that Lenglon's reasons for voting Vector were decent enough, but now she's blustering around with Leafsnail (more on this) and claiming that her statements mean different things than what they say. I now think these two bandwagoned Vector. Heck, Shinigami and Lenglon were both voting for RangerCado. TWS's playerslot and Lenglon are the only two players to have voted the same person every single day.

Second, since both Lenglon and TWS were voting for Vector I think the scumteam is/was afraid of blowback from causing a mislynch, and are trying to turn it around back on to Leafsnail. I also think that the scumteam was afraid that since TWS was Vector's primary target, he could be the first up for lynching if they didn't turn it around.

Third, it looks like TWS is distancing himself from Lenglon by listing her as part of the scumteam with Leafsnail, just in case one of them gets lynched and the game doesn't end today. TWS thought very highly of Leafsnail, so I find it unlikely that he would vote for the person he'd been buddying over Lenglon, who is digging herself a hole.

Fourth, Shinigami and Lenglon have felt weird to me, but I can't work too much with that.

So in the interest of lynching scum, Lenglon. Day, you better get in here soon.


Lenglon:

Sheep: How likely do you think it is that the argument between Day and Leaf from yesterday was faked?

This question seems like a really big stretch. You might as well ask if he thinks the argument between you and Leafsnail is faked.

The fact that you keep pushing this misrepresentation of what i'm saying is even more evidence that you're just trying to save your own scumbag skin at this point. There's no way you could realistically keep making that assumption after this many times I've clearly said otherwise. the only reason you're doing this is to try to push my statements out of context, and into a context you can protect yourself from better. that's scum reasoning, because you aren't even pretending to be looking for scum anymore and are just trying to defend yourself and save your own skin.

The way I'm reading it, Leafsnail isn't "misrepresenting" any statements. What you claim you meant and what your words are saying aren't the same thing, some of which I pointed out here. Also, you have been doing quite a bit of defense yourself.


TWS:

What is your take on Leafsnail and Lenglon's conversation? What made you vote Leafsnail over Lenglon?


Mod, Votecount?

[Griffionday]

Extend
Seriously guys, we have less than 8hrs to game over.
Leafsnail:

I'm sorry. I know I said I was moving on, but I need to deal my suspicion of you properly or else it's game over today.

Because what I thought he did was claim a role that didn't exist in order to save his scummy ass, when he was nowhere near being lynched.  Instead, he appeared to claim a role that does exist in order to save his scummy ass, when he was nowhere near being lynched.  Basically, the difference between making a stupid mistake and being scummy, vs. just being scummy.

Because I didn't notice what he was doing.

Completely escaped my notice.  Dem felt bad, but there was nothing I could really put my finger on.

The shortening seemed strange to me because they're uncommon, but I figured that hey, the day was wearing on and no one was getting anywhere, it was a good call.  What I didn't notice was where his vote was.

I guess I can believe that.  Now that I've pointed it out, though, would you say that makes him scum, particularly given your previous feeling that his playerslot was scum?

Why where you attempting to shift Vector's vote onto one of your suspects and away from Sheep?  You remained fairly sure that she was scum throughout the day, but here you seem to be treating her as fellow town.  Why?

"controlling my hunting of you" isn't in any way a scumtell, and I don't even understand why you think it is considering that a town player would equally want you to unvote them.  And again, if you think I'm a perfect mafia player who would never drop any kind of associative tell, wouldn't that also mean all your attempts to lynch me are meaningless because I'll never drop an individual tell either?

That's not precisely I meant.  I meant being overly involved in my hunting pattern, and telling me what to look for in you to validate your innocence. 
At the time this made sense as a scum tell, as doing so gives you access to a position of control over me, and having a non-IC townies fall in line and play your game is a pattern of dominance I've seen in other games.  I think outside of BM's this is a null-tell; however, it is something I noticed scum IC's doing, and it rang my bells.  Hence why I'm saying I'm unlikely to find an associative tell; you want me to play your game, and if you were scum you'd point me to your strengths rather than your weaknesses.

Serioustalk: I don't see how you could arrive at Lenglon/Leafsnail as a likely team by pair analysis, particularly considering that we are crossvoting at lylo (which is a far better reason to discount a team than anything you listed).  Is there some really weird gambit going on here or what?

It's actually rather brilliant really.  It is entirely possible that you and Lenglon are the scum team and you are going into lylo attempting to bus each other.

And why not?  All you have to do to win is kick up enough of a smoke screen to cause one of us to vote for someone else.  Unless you were absolutely sure that the person you were voting was scum would you be the last person to vote for them?

I'm well aware that being able and willing to be the last person to vote is necessary to win, but that ups the pressure of lylo up to levels that I argue would cause even you to second guess yourself and possibly throw the game.  Plus if it backfires as long as you kept your case reasonably clean (such as you are doing, not Lenglon, I'll address her in a minute) you'll come out of the lynch clean and with a near bullet proof defense for the next day.  With our only protection gone we have no hope in that scenario.
Nightcrafter:
Seeing as your reads are the same as someone who I consider to be suspicious, I have to ask explicitly what your opinion of Leafsnail is.  Please go into detail if you have time to.

I know it's a lot of extra effort I'm asking of you: but could you also take the time to argue against my read on him?
Lenglon:

Vector seemed more scummy than Leaf at the time, and Leaf wasn't up for lynch.
also, you were rambling on and on about the exact same things over and over, and I didn't want to give you encouragement.

Why?  No seriously why?  Your goal here isn't help me become a better person, your goal is to WIN.  If you felt my suspicions had merit, then you should have pressed Leafsnail, and seen if you could get a better read on him.  This doesn't preclude pressing me over my reads, which would have helped me refine my case to the point where we could have lynched potential scum rather than a null read.  The only reason I can see to keep silent is to keep me distracted in pressing Leaf, and fear that interaction could cause me to start pressing you as well.

-Sheep's pair analysis-

valid point, I have nothing to add on the matter at this time, but doing want people freaking out if/when I bring this up again later this entire statement is nothing but a waste of space, I shouldn't have to bother saying it at all.

What later?  As far as your tunnel is concerned there is no later where you would potentially bring this up.  The only possibility would be you meaning later today; however, there isn't enough time left in the game for much new information to arise, and you aren't extending.

Assumption 1 is patently nonsense and you know it.  Everything else kindof rests on that!

Assumption 1 was most of your case on Vector. Vector's reasoning for what to do when Ranger claimed cop didn't match you own. You objected to this, violently. if Assumption 1 is patently nonsense, why did you make a lynch case out of it?

Is that really what you expected us to get out of your long post?  These are the last hours, we don't have time for you to explain your reasoning and logic over multiple posts, be conclusive the first time.

[Vector]

Griffionday, your playstyle is too detailed.  You need to cut the fat and work on keeping your energy up.

[Griffionday]

Griffionday, your playstyle is too detailed.  You need to cut the fat and work on keeping your energy up.

I'm a bit OC, so I have difficulty identifying what is fat and what is important and will help fellow players see what I see.  Any advice you have for identifying the fat to cut would be highly appreciated.

Not to say that you're wrong, just that I already noticed this and am trying to work on it.

[Vector]

Currently operating on nowhere near enough sleep, so no, I'm not going to be able to help.

But everything you write--reread it, and think: "is this actually important right now?  Is this worth fighting over?"  You don't have to refute your enemy's every point, just the important ones.