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[Hapah]

So you're not even going to look at the line of reasoning? You're just going to jump on me because the text was blue instead of red? Would YOU ever use the ability Toony has described?

[Shakerag]

Okay, my formatting may be ass, becaue it is the weekend, and I am drinking the frutiest alcoholic drink I can get my hands on.  I'd wait until Monday, byt LNCP is a slavedriver about posting on weekends.  Also, I'm tearing myself from Recettear for this  -_-


Leafsnail

The maiden.  The mother.  The crone.  Look it up.  Strongly associated with witchcraft.  I'm pretty sure that's the theme of the mafia side.

Please categorize your role into one of these three, or say if you think you fit none of them (and explain why).

Maiden - young, unmarried
Mother - has kids who need looking after
Crone - is old

The mother, since I have kids that (I think) I just got apprenticed off.  Not quite old enough to be a crone yet. 


ToonyMan:

bluh bluh stuff about death shaman

Okay, so you got contacted by Dariush because he thought you might be the death shaman, but you think that I may be scum becaue he actively dishmissed the possibiloity of me being it?  Clearly, he has no clue whio the DS is, so why would his thinking I'm not the DS peg me as scum? 


NQT:

Shakerag— you weren't always a maid, were you? Was your dead husband particularly rich, a man of note perhaps?

Correct.  It's like you inspected me or something O_o  He was a spice merchant and made gobs of money.  Which apparently I was not able to do after he died, as apparently having a vagina prohibits me from running a successful business. 


birdy51:  If I were to say that I was watching where you went last night, how would you react?

ToonyMan:  Do you have a guess as to who you think may be the death shaman right now?

Ironyowl: If you weren't such a chronic lurker, I'd say you were #1 death shaman pick.  On a completely different note, why do you think ZU didn';t have a role flip?

[IronyOwl]

Leafsnail: Maiden. No children, don't believe I'm that old.


Toony:

Toonyman— that's quite a dramatic reveal. Why do you think, as Viscount, you're above death-shaman suspicion?

I'm not really, but if it garners me protection from the mafia then I can only see it as a bonus.  And if I were to die in some way I'd still win with the town.

Protection from what? Why do you mention how nice it is to be protected, followed immediately by how you're totally not afraid of dying or anything?

Also, if the witches have no NK, who killed Tiruin and ZU?

I can't say I entirely trust their word.  So if anybody killed Tiruin it was the witches.  Don't know about ZU, might be some weird ability they have being the Death Shaman and all.  Either way somebody needs to revive them, unfortunately I don't have such capabilities.

Why so certain nobody but the witches have a kill, even though you say ZU might have killed himself?


Shakerag:

Ironyowl: If you weren't such a chronic lurker, I'd say you were #1 death shaman pick.

That's nice.

On a completely different note, why do you think ZU didn';t have a role flip?

Initially I assumed because he was vanilla town and thus didn't have a role worth flipping. Lenglon's PM seems to contradict this, so I guess the Death Shaman thing sounds likely.

[birdy51]

Shakerag:

birdy51:  If I were to say that I was watching where you went last night, how would you react?

I would ask the question, "What did you see?"

To the best of my own knowledge, I did nothing last Night. However, others may have visited me without me knowing, which is just as informative. Is this the case?

Lenglon:

...
1 moment, reviewing, but I may have completely misstated things.
Unvote
low on time, but I need to review. somehow I mixed up the actions of Dariush, Vector, and Toaster, back during day 1.
Ottofar: because I'm tired of being berated for not having my vote on someone, and he didn't make an impression on me day 2.
that long night really is throwing me off, my memory is a lil fuzzy right now apparently. hence my need to review.

There is one problem with that vote Lenglon. Ottofar is no longer in the game. He was replaced out by me.

NQT:

Solifuge— Were you raised in a monastery? Be honest here, look what happened when Dariush lied to me.

Is your question based on your knowledge of me, or your knowledge of Solifuge?

[ToonyMan]

@Leafsnail:

So, if we take two claimed wincons as true:
- Life Shaman: Life Shaman alive, Death Shaman Alive
- Witch: Life Shaman dead, Death Shaman Alive
Now, I'm going to take a guess at the Death Shaman's:
- Death Shaman (speculation): Life Shaman dead, Death Shaman dead
This might mean that what the town wants (although this may not be required to win) is the last remaining possibility - Life Shaman alive, Death Shaman dead.

That sounds good.  Also yeah, I'm pretty sure Tiruin res'd herself.

I am 29.  Which means I am not a crone either.


@Hapah:

Toony: There's something that's bugging me which I hope you can shed a little light on. The information you've presented seems true, or at least too intricate to be entirely false. What I can't understand in why in the world a witch would ever use the ability you've described, in the manner you've described. Am I reading it correctly in that it revealed that he was definitely a Witch for the possibility of opening a chat? And why would a witch ever use it on the person they think is the Death Shaman, and then claim a wincon that probably runs counter in the same chat? Would you ever use the ability the way you claimed Dar did? Would anyone?

I can't account for Dariush's action, but his reasoning seemed to be that because they are "not hostile to the town" and that there's a magical rift they need to seal that I should cooperate.  I'm not sure why them killing the Life Shaman and keeping the Death Shaman alive would seal this rift, but I agree with Leafsnail in that we should perform the opposite.  Which is why Tiruin needs to stop dying and we need to find the DS (which is probably ZU cough cough).

As he said himself:
"Also, there is no point in us killing you at all - if our wincon were getting rid of townies, I wouldn't have contacted you, would I?"
The fact he contacted me says he believes in this quite a bit for reasons I'm unclear on.


@Shakerag:

ToonyMan:

bluh bluh stuff about death shaman

Okay, so you got contacted by Dariush because he thought you might be the death shaman, but you think that I may be scum because he actively dismissed the possibility of me being it?  Clearly, he has no clue who the DS is, so why would his thinking I'm not the DS peg me as scum?

Ah, but Dariush does know who the rest of the witches are.  If he claims you aren't the DS then he must have some reason for that, no?

ToonyMan:  Do you have a guess as to who you think may be the death shaman right now?

Zombie Urist.  If it's not ZU then...maybe Leafsnail or Birdy.


@IronyOwl:

Toony:

Toonyman— that's quite a dramatic reveal. Why do you think, as Viscount, you're above death-shaman suspicion?

I'm not really, but if it garners me protection from the mafia then I can only see it as a bonus.  And if I were to die in some way I'd still win with the town.

Protection from what? Why do you mention how nice it is to be protected, followed immediately by how you're totally not afraid of dying or anything?

If the mafia keep thinking I'm the Death Shaman they would never want to see me dead and I'm completely okay with that.  If I still end up dying that shouldn't be too awful because I am town and will win with the town.  Your second question is weird because I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, everybody wouldn't mind being warded (unless you wanted to die for some reason) and my fearlessness to die would go along with the bonus of protection.  Basically, I'm being completely cocky and since I'm still alive, then hey, I'm gonna keep going with it since any anti-town factions have had two nights (technically three I guess but I don't think kills are allowed N0) to off me but they're too afraid to or possibly have more important secret agendas or something.

Also, if the witches have no NK, who killed Tiruin and ZU?

I can't say I entirely trust their word.  So if anybody killed Tiruin it was the witches.  Don't know about ZU, might be some weird ability they have being the Death Shaman and all.  Either way somebody needs to revive them, unfortunately I don't have such capabilities.

Why so certain nobody but the witches have a kill, even though you say ZU might have killed himself?

Where do I say that?  I'm more confident the witches don't have a kill.  But the witches would want to see Tiruin dead so I listed it as the firmest possibility (though I admit the Death Shaman doing something as well is easily in the scope of things but the fact Tiruin went down last night too makes me think Zombie Urist killing himself and killing Tiruin as a bit OP, hence the witch claimed kill).  I don't know any other roles that would exist beyond witches, life shaman, death shaman, and townies (possibly vigs but why would a town vig kill Tiruin?)

Also, Tiruin has absolutely zero reason to suicide unless she's hoodwinking us.

[Lenglon]

unvote: well, that explains why I didn't remember ottofar doing anything.

Lenglon, ZU, NQT, ToonyMan, IronyOwl : You five out of the total audience have stated insight and/or interest towards this debate here, what is your read and view on this?

Toaster seemed decently townie to me, up until I followed your link regarding his lie. even then I didn't understand it on the first read-through. one moment while I pick out the important quote from the text:
first of all, the lie itself:

Toaster

Lastly, what your remark to NQT is, is my point on you.

Okay, I'll grant you this one.  You said "I'm not a witch" within the context of your previous claim of not being third party, when I read it separately.  Consider my complaint on that post dropped.  [...]

A very nice startup until you found something actually suspicious about him. The bolded portion contradicts whatever you posted towards me, however, as only now after I shown you the error, you backtrack.

This is a lie.  NQT clarified this for me, not you.

Toaster
I explicitly said I wasn't 3rd party, you even quoted where I said it. I'm going to give you one last chance as it's still possible that you're being as dense as your namesake. Unless you have a crumb tray where your rational faculties ought be you'll know exactly what I was saying when I told you to think back to your previous witches games and reflect on what I was doing early on this game. I'm calling you out as confirmed scum if you don't see what I'm saying. You're allowed to disbelieve me but you should at least stop misrepresenting what I'm telling you.

August 12, 2013, 12:48:52 am

Yes he clarified it. I did that before he stated this.

next, proof that it was no accident or a simple failure to read:

You quoted it before. You read it, presumably.

Let me link it. I thoroughly believe you commented on this.

Number 1. Parenthesized sentence.

(yet it is strange seeing how he doesn't address it explicitly, he does [prior to bad semantics] say  I am not, as you say, a "third party". I am a journeyman carpenter." The second sentence throws it off.)

The punctuation.

I make this clearer.
4 hours post-NQT above there.

Accuse less, think more.

That right there makes toaster pretty darn scummy.
next, there's toaster's actions towards NQT, where he repeatedly accuses him of deflection when NQT gave an explicit, direct, and perfectly clear answer. When he got pressed on it, he said that returning a variation of a questioner's question back to the questioner, even after answering the question themselves, is scummy. that is nonsense.
then there's toaster's whole "behavior pattern change" section of his case on Tiruin, which makes zero sense.
The reason the lie was so damning is because it shifts the way I've been viewing his case on Tiruin. previously I thought he was being honest and direct, if misguided. Now I have explicit evidence of him being dishonest and indirect. I already had evidence of him doing such to NQT, but wasn't certain he was scum over it. him doing it twice, especially since he picked as his target someone who was focusing him and had a bullseye on her due to having made an abnormal (but not scummy) claim, makes a clear pattern of unacceptable behavior. Like I said earlier, I try to look at people's actions over time, and Toaster has established a pattern of misrepresentation of facts and picking on targets of opportunity.
Unvote

Toaster's scum.

Toaster: from day 1, I don't see where you addressed this case.
and sorry about bringing the wrong case the first time I voted you, that really didn't make much sense.
Solifuge: "Where's the kitty? Kittty!!! Where arrrrreeeee yooooouuuuu??"
Toonyman: I don't follow your logic. If a witch marks someone as a death shaman, they have a reason to not lynch that person. Why wouldn't Dar simply call one of his fellow witches the Death Shaman in order to protect them?
In General: I think we're focusing too much on the shamans. What happened to trying to find the witches?
Where is everyone anyway?

[Lenglon]

oh, and I'm reasonably certain the DS is Leafsnail, not ZU.

[Hapah]

Toony: What's this about a rift? I don't recall you mentioning it before.

And I understand that you can't perfectly account for Dar's actions, but the move you described is damn near suicide for him in just about any situation. It seems you could be accounting for your not pushing Dar at all D2 and testing the waters for the Witch wincon at the same time. Your explanation is just rubbing me the wrong way, is all.

Lenglon: I can't speak for everyone else, but since the game is at least somewhat a bastard things might not be as they seem. The information provided so far is very interesting, so I'm trying to see where it takes me.

oh, and I'm reasonably certain the DS is Leafsnail, not ZU.

Why?

[ToonyMan]

Toonyman: I don't follow your logic. If a witch marks someone as a death shaman, they have a reason to not lynch that person. Why wouldn't Dar simply call one of his fellow witches the Death Shaman in order to protect them?

That's true, except I was saying Dariush rejected the idea of Vector/Shakerag being the DS.  Where would you get that confidence from?

Unless you're saying my entire analysis is pointless, because Dariush could be lying yaddha yaddha, but I'm not basing this purely on Dariush's reads.  I gave my reads first before Dariush critiqued them and I still left my inclusions I continue to agree with.

In General: I think we're focusing too much on the shamans. What happened to trying to find the witches?
Where is everyone anyway?

Weekend.

oh, and I'm reasonably certain the DS is Leafsnail, not ZU.

Why?

PPE:
Echoing Hapah here, heh.

Toony: What's this about a rift? I don't recall you mentioning it before.

It's Dariush's justification for what they're doing.  There's a magical rift or something.  From what he said it seems implied none of the town would know of its existence.  I think he used it as a form of intimidation like a doomsday thing.  I didn't really leave it out in my first post for any particular reason, I mainly forgot to mention it (blame school starting or something) and we do have quite a collection of posts.  Over 20 replies.

[notquitethere]

All
My guess from the setting text is that Tiruin protected Zombie Urist (believing him to be the Death Shaman), hence his lack of flip and was killed by the Death Shaman in the same night. ZU may well awake from a protected coma soon now that the Life Shaman is dead. If there's no kills tonight, the theories that the Death Shaman is ZU and the Witches have no night kill will be comparatively strengthened. (We might have a doctor role— something has to explain the fact that they haven't offed me yet.) Either way, let's stay focused and root out the Mother and Crone witches.

Spoiler: Claims (click to show/hide)

Mother-Maiden-Crone Claims
IronyOwl   - Maiden
Hapah      - Mother
Leafsnail    - Mother
Lenglon        - Crone
notquitethere   - Maiden (actually, not any as I'm middle-aged without kids)
Solifuge   - Hasn't appeared yet- is an apprentice cooper so not old
birdy51      - Didn't claim- is a journeyman so not super-old
Toaster      - Mother (from being a farmer?!!)
Toonyman   - Claims to not fit the categories, but as two minutes research clearly shows that the Count has a son called Charles
Shakerag   - Mother

LNCP— Common knowledge check: does the Count have a son at this point in history as indeed the real Viscount did?

Toonyman

You can trust that almost anything you dig up applies here, and I've done my best to maintain that the timelines also match up. There are only a couple of details that I've changed, and you're not likely to ever find those.

The year is 1489.

Your son, Charles de Crussol, was born in 1483— why would you lie about being a father?

Lenglon— Unless someone is lying about their age or whether they have children, you are the crone by process of elimination. If you're not the crone, it behooves you to find out who is. On that note:

Toaster— Okay, enough bullshit. Being a farmer doesn't make you a mother, having children does. Do you have children or not?

Birdy

Is your question based on your knowledge of me, or your knowledge of Solifuge?

Heh, you'd like to know that wouldn't you? You do know what Solifuge's first name is, right? I'll tell all once I get a reply from Solifuge, who should be posting tomorrow post-Ludum.

Also, could you answer this:

The maiden.  The mother.  The crone.  Look it up.  Strongly associated with witchcraft.  I'm pretty sure that's the theme of the mafia side.

Please categorize your role into one of these three, or say if you think you fit none of them (and explain why).

Maiden - young, unmarried
Mother - has kids who need looking after
Crone - is old

Being male doesn't exclude you from these categories (Dariush was male, afterall).

[Lenglon]

Lenglon:[/b] I can't speak for everyone else, but since the game is at least somewhat a bastard things might not be as they seem. The information provided so far is very interesting, so I'm trying to see where it takes me.

oh, and I'm reasonably certain the DS is Leafsnail, not ZU.

Why?

Patterns, 1 moment, this's going to take a while, leaf has 45 posts after all, and context is important here.

ok, everyone remembers the whole wincon debate?
well, Leaf threw me for a loop there, because the key to the thing was based on information not being public that actually was.
now then, at first, I thought he might have legitimately missed the detail, but then when I pointed it out for the second time, he doesn't follow up on it.
meaning that the information didn't spark any new thoughts on the matter. that information both showed that he had not actually confirmed himself as town, but also that his target wasn't confirmed as town. additionally it would have been easy to show where NQT had read my post and wincon statement, yet he doesn't point this out. he completely abandons his case on the person he thinks is scum despite useful information to make a case with being shoved in his face. this doesn't make sense if he's town. this doesn't make sense if he's scum either. both of them would want to have NQT lynched. the DS however wouldn't care, and is trying to act scummy, but not be obvious about it.
additionally look at the post where he switches from voting NQT to voting Tiruin. he still thinks NQT is scum, and NQT's head is on the chopping block, but he shifts his vote to a third party, for reasons that had been hashed out over the past several pages with no new information. it was a blatant bandwagon vote, and yet again, there is no benefit to himself from his actions be he town or scum.
next, on day 2, he decided to take things up a notch. he refuses to claim and simply answers questions asked of him by NQT. he then proposes a self-contradictory cult theory based on my behavior. insisting that me being picky about where information comes from is a sign that I am desperate for information. again, this is too crazy for scum, and too crazy for town.
finally, I don't see how he can be scum from the above points, but I do see how he could be the Death Shaman or town. in either case, the action for us to take remains the same - don't lynch him. so I'm willing to take a gamble on a weaker read/case and assume for now he is the Death Shaman. I honestly suspect that ZU was town, and simply had an annoying ability that kept him from flipping for no good reason, or that he was killed in a special way, and that we haven't seen the last of him or his capabilities.
the main thing that confuses me is why Leaf didn't lie when questioned by NQT, he stood to gain from being lynched after all.

Lenglon— Unless someone is lying about their age or whether they have children, you are the crone by process of elimination. If you're not the crone, it behooves you to find out who is.

well, I'm not a wtich, so, I suspect that one of the people claiming Mother is the crone, simply because I'm not the crone, and that looks like the easiest lie to make, especially with so many of them.
I'm not fully convinced of the maiden/mother/crone thing, but it makes sense so I'm willing to work with it for now.

[Leafsnail]

Please use paragraphs Lenglon.

[birdy51]

NQT

Birdy

Is your question based on your knowledge of me, or your knowledge of Solifuge?

Heh, you'd like to know that wouldn't you? You do know what Solifuge's first name is, right? I'll tell all once I get a reply from Solifuge, who should be posting tomorrow post-Ludum.

Also, could you answer this:

The maiden.  The mother.  The crone.  Look it up.  Strongly associated with witchcraft.  I'm pretty sure that's the theme of the mafia side.

Please categorize your role into one of these three, or say if you think you fit none of them (and explain why).

Maiden - young, unmarried
Mother - has kids who need looking after
Crone - is old

Being male doesn't exclude you from these categories (Dariush was male, afterall).

Yes. I would like to know which of us you investigated for that information. However, since I have already made you wait, you doing the same is simply fair play. However, I will leave you with this insight.

Solifuge's first name, while interesting is not as perplexing as the last. His last name is the point of interest.

Now as to your second query, I have already answered that question.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The maiden.  The mother.  The crone.  Look it up.  Strongly associated with witchcraft.  I'm pretty sure that's the theme of the mafia side.

Please categorize your role into one of these three, or say if you think you fit none of them (and explain why).

Maiden - young, unmarried
Mother - has kids who need looking after
Crone - is old

For all intents and purposes, I fall into the Maiden category.

I don't have anyone I am looking after, and I am still a young man.

[Leafsnail]

Unvote.

I'm feeling a bit torn on ToonyMan.  The information he's giving us is plausible, but the way he claims he obtained that information severely strains credibility.  I feel like he'd be brave enough to make this up as a witch, but at the same time I don't really see why he'd make up such an elaborate story in response to a simple question.  I'd like to see the answer the NQT's question before proceeding.

Toaster's answer to my question is very strange, now that I look at it properly.  I stated that I was looking for a literal answer, and yet he responded with a vague thematic answer.  I suspect that he isn't lying, but I don't see how he could've given said that unless he knew he was a "witch mother".

Lenglon does appear to be the Crone by elimination, but Toaster's slip implies to me that the definitions of these three roles may be more liberal than I thought.  It could be that a "crone" is someone who is unmarried and past normally marriagable age, for instance.  I don't get why he's spending so much effort finding the Death Shaman though, I feel like the witches have a lot more to gain from the DS being outed than the town does.

Reviving Tir would go against their wincon twice, as they'd need to get Tir re-dead and hope hard that the Death Shaman doesn't get killed. It's also worth noting that Tir had a pretty good-sized post up within 20 minutes of being ressed (in the middle of a game day, no less). I'd wager Tir picked herself up, personally.

Explain what you meant by the bolded.

[Hapah]

Explain what you meant by the bolded.

Sure. You said that you thought the Witches revived Tir to confuse the town, if I recall correctly. Unless the res is multi-use, that wouldn't make much sense if we've got the wincon right. They'd be reviving the person they want dead and lose their ability to revive the person they want alive at the same time. It's moving in exactly the wrong direction.