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[lordnincompoop]

Votecount:

Dariush	- 0 -
Deathsword	- 1 -	griffinpup
griffinpup	- 0 -
Leafsnail	- 1 -	Vector
Lenglon	- 0 -
notquitethere	- 3 -	Toaster, Ottofar, Dariush
Okami No Rei	- 1 -	zombie urist
Ottofar	- 4 -	Lenglon, notquitethere, ToonyMan, Leafsnail
Tiruin	- 0 -
Toaster	- 1 -	Tiruin
ToonyMan	- 0 -
Vector	- 0 -
zombie urist	- 1 -	Okami No Rei
-
Not Voting	- 1 -	Deathsword
No Lynch	- 0 -
-
Extend	- 0 -
Shorten	- 0 -

The Day will end in 32 hours, on the 14th of August, 8PM GMT.

4 votes required to Extend. 7 votes required to Shorten. 1 Extend left for the Day.

[notquitethere]

Tiruin
Well I'm glad there's no real misunderstanding there. Sometimes tone can get lost in text

Err, what does the question refer to? You know something about them?

No, I only know what you're telling me. And, correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to be saying:

1. There is a non-witch threat to town
2. Defeating witches helps towards defeating this threat
3. You've referred to the threat as plural, so presumably more than one player (a cult? a second mafia? disconnected 3rd parties?)

Have I understood correctly that this is what you're saying? If not, please clarify.

[Tiruin]

Tiruin
Well I'm glad there's no real misunderstanding there. Sometimes tone can get lost in text

Err, what does the question refer to? You know something about them?

No, I only know what you're telling me. And, correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to be saying:

1. There is a non-witch threat to town = [Perceived threat judging from what information I know]
2. Defeating witches helps towards defeating this threat = [Well, just stopping anyone from killing and/or aiding the threat]
3. You've referred to the threat as plural, so presumably more than one player (a cult? a second mafia? disconnected 3rd parties?) [Not a cult. Not a second mafia. They are third parties.]

Have I understood correctly that this is what you're saying? If not, please clarify.

It is, and I'll clarify more. In brackets.

[notquitethere]

OK. I wonder if anyone else in town have this wincon or information that can verify what you're saying? I know I don't know anything about this, but I'm open to believing it given the setting.

Dariush, griffinpup, Leafsnail, Lenglon, Okami No Rei, Ottofar, Toaster, Vector, zombie urist
Is your wincon to kill all witches?

I know that's my wincon, but it's suddenly struck me that that might not even be the norm in this set-up. Tiruin says she's after some third party, Toonyman has claimed to be after witches, and Deathsword is awaiting replacement, but the rest of you should answer this.

[Leafsnail]

Thanks for fucking up my question NQT.

[Ottofar]

Toony

@Ottofar:

@Ottofar:
Look, I tied the votes.  We have over an entire day to deal with this dilemma though so I'm not worried.  I think you're more scummy than NQT.  And unless other people throw their chips in this isn't going to go anywhere.

Good for you. Why do you think so?

I could pick apart this post for adding literally nothing to this game, but let's be easy here.  Your vote on NQT was back from the very beginning of the game and you've just...left it on there.  You've made additional statements yes, but I like sticking my vote on somebody and not moving when I'm scum too.   Also, your main cases have been against NQT and Lenglon, who are both currently voting you.  And your lack of activity that just barely survives the prod time limit is apparent.  I don't feel as confident as a vote on someone I find more scummy, but I'm being adaptive here.  Since in mafia you're playing with other people there's a bit of leeway here.  For example, my vote on Zombie Urist only held lynching power when others were voting him as well.  If I were to switch my vote (though I'd prefer if NQT stays alive) it would be on Vector.

For further investigation, you have a possibility of dying right now, does that bother you?  Who do you think might save you?

I was in a hurry, and I found it easiest to reply to your post. But, to answer. Yes, it has. I nearly took the vote off, but decided against it, as I said. I have my reasons, and I do stand by them. I believe my case on NQT existed before he voted me. And yes, I've been trying to work on a post per day basis, but that clearly hasn't been enough, especially when I'ven't managed it. Sorry about that.

Dying really doesn't. Anyone who thinks NQT is more dangerous to the town than myself might save me.

Leafsnail

I am voting you basically because you're desperate to stay alive. Because you're panicking over the possibility of actually getting lynched. Because I think you're third party, and probably a SK since you didn't claim a survivor.

Ottofar.  Do you stand by this paragraph?  Do you understand why I am voting you for this paragraph, and if you do then would you like to clarify your accusation in some way?

I do stand by it, I'm not absolutely certain of the SK part, but I'm fairly sure a town member would not panic that much. And I am not certain of the reason, but if I took a guess, I'd think it has to do with the the fact that witch-elimination is a wincon.

Toaster

Ottofar:  Why are you ignoring questions and not hunting scum?

Because I was in a hurry, and Toonyman's post was the quickest to reply to.

Zombie urist

Ottofar: Who's scummy besides NQT?

Lenglon, at least should be taken a look at. Nobody else hasn't jumped up at me.

Did I miss a question?

 Anyways, I'll look at the Lonely Prince, cook something and come back here.

[notquitethere]

Leafsnail, apparently I didn't ruin anything as Ottofar hasn't appeared to have read my post. Also, is your wincon to kill all witches or not?

Ottofar, you seem to think I'm a third party based apparently on my superior will-to-survive (which apparently is a 3rd-party tell, who knew?), is your wincon to kill third parties then?

[Dariush]

Errrrm, nope!  I thought you would figure it out which would be kind of neat.  Basically, at the time I had no more ammo left on Vector and didn't want to waste my vote, so what do I do?  Zombie Urist is pretty empty too, but I don't really want to see NQT get lynched.  But then there's Ottofar.  The fact NQT and Lenglon favor town to me probably helps with my decision.  So I put my vote on Ottofar, not only would I be fine with his lynch, but I also tie the vote now thanks to Deathsword bowing out.  Now another player will have to either have a change of heart or an outside player needs to vote NQT or Ottofar.  Thus, another player would have to come up with a reason to vote either NQT and Ottofar.

So... you admit to having no case and forcing everyone else to do your job for you, and additionally engage in a nifty bit of hypocrisy by accusing Ottofar of parking his vote while parking your vote on him. Why do you consider NQT town?

Also, what ZU said about shameless buddying. Though why would you buddy your scummate is another question...

[Ottofar]

Ottofar, you seem to think I'm a third party based apparently on my superior will-to-survive (which apparently is a 3rd-party tell, who knew?), is your wincon to kill third parties then?

As I said, it is to eliminate the witches.

Pardon my tardiness, I'll get to the cooking part just now, had to unclog a sink.

[Toaster]

NQT:

Toaster

I really have no idea what you're trying to say with regards to previous games, though.

I'm struggling to believe that you're really this dense. What's the one thing you told everyone about your previous two games? Read back if you've forgotten. Think about my early game. Make some sense now?

...

Okay, you know what?  I think I know what you're trying to tell me.  If I'm right, you'll get why I'm also not stating my conclusion out loud.

You've won this one, sir.

Unvote NQT


Tiruin:

Toaster

That leaves either Town or Third-Party.

Explain why you concluded the latter. Explain why that needs to hang.

What, you don't think third party should hang?  Wonder why that is.

Nice evasion mister.

A third-party can comprise anything from benevolent to neutral to malevolent. Is it explicitly needed to be hung?

I want reasons, not roundabout questions and implied answers, Witch.


Let me ask you this hypothetical: Is a third-party a definite evil to the town?

I did explain why I concluded that (the misunderstanding which I already stated.)  And sorry, I thought it was common knowledge that third party was bad.  Since you don't agree, I'll explain.

Third parties have a different goal than town.  If they had the same goal, they just would be town.  Since they do not have the same goal as town, they are not acting in the town's interests.  While it is within the realm of possibility that said third party may see benefit from town doing well, that does not mean they will be 100% loyal and helpful to town- again, if so, they'd just be town in the first place.

Let's do some examples.  Survivor has no direct reason to hurt the town.  However, it is in their interest to see the game end as quickly as possible, so they often side with the mafia.  Jesters disrupt scumhunting and waste a lynch.  A martyr wants to draw a nightkill so they may be active in scum hunting, but they don't want to get all the scum lynched before they get killed.  A Brother typically doesn't know the alignment of their target.

More relevant examples- WC1 had a lyncher, a wizard, and a golem.  The lyncher was paired to a townie- this is obviously bad.  The golem was basically a SK, which is even more obviously bad.  The wizard wanted to find and control the golem, but blew away witches and townies alike in its quest to find it.  No one is really sure what happened if the golem was caught, but best case is they both just left town, which still isn't pro town.

WC2 had a bell-sounder that created a SK and a cult.  I don't think I need to explain why these are anti-town.

So, do I think third parties should hang?  Yes, absolutely.  In past WC games they've even been more of a threat than witches.

As for your hypothetical, almost certainly.  I shall return you with another hypothetical:  if a third-party is beneficial to the town, why wouldn't it just be town?

Why shouldn't I be lynched? Do you want me to give reasons on that extremist point? It's all up to you, and/or everyone else to decide on that point and ascertain whether or not the target must be lynched under grounds of logic and communication. That sort of question is quite..I can't find the word for it. Strange? Out of place? It's like you're taking the role of a judge on that part and as if you've got power over me.

Given you've claimed third party, yes indeed, I do think you should give reasons.  Interesting that you think I'm acting like a judge, since that's an apt comparison to the role that everyone has.  Well, I suppose it's more akin to jury, since we're voting on who is guilty and who is not.  My vote is my power, and I choose to use it on you.

As for believing anything I say--that's relative. As well as believing everything everyone else says. *handwaves argument* You want to stereotype? Go do so. Whatever consequence of that will be attributed to ignorance.

I mean, heck. Sure, we can attribute third-party to the neutral jerk who picks sides and doesn't care about stuff, or wishes to kill people for the heck of it, but...that's really shocking seeing your extremism there. And it being shared by ZU given his point of view on it.

How do you view a third-party? Why should they be hanged in lieu of unclaimed scummy people? Should they be hanged if they are third-party, and nothing else?

I believe I've answered all this above, and I stand by my reasoning on it. 

The underlined bit, especially.  I am for lynching scummy people, sure, but when scum jumps out at me, why not take it up on its offer?

And yes, I think third party should hang.

Vector:  Tiruin appears to be claiming third party.  What is your reaction to this?

Running up to Vector and asking for backup, I presume? Why Vector of all people?

Because Vector is being too quiet and needs to talk more.

Lastly, what your remark to NQT is, is my point on you.

Okay, I'll grant you this one.  You said "I'm not a witch" within the context of your previous claim of not being third party, when I read it separately.  Consider my complaint on that post dropped.  [...]

A very nice startup until you found something actually suspicious about him. The bolded portion contradicts whatever you posted towards me, however, as only now after I shown you the error, you backtrack.

This is a lie.  NQT clarified this for me, not you.

Toaster
I explicitly said I wasn't 3rd party, you even quoted where I said it. I'm going to give you one last chance as it's still possible that you're being as dense as your namesake. Unless you have a crumb tray where your rational faculties ought be you'll know exactly what I was saying when I told you to think back to your previous witches games and reflect on what I was doing early on this game. I'm calling you out as confirmed scum if you don't see what I'm saying. You're allowed to disbelieve me but you should at least stop misrepresenting what I'm telling you.

Coward.

Bite me.

..It is concerned, just that it isn't written in the wincon. >_> Look, while I did say 'it isn't in directly culling the witches from this town' I was referring to the wincon-my character doesn't prioritize those things, but sees a larger, greater threat on the horizon.

Something greater than witches.

...

You can say this out loud and wonder why I want to see third parties hang?

[Vector]

Tiruin, can you explain why you know about a greater threat on the horizon than witches and said nothing about it?  I can't see any reason not to warn the town other than that greater threat actually being you.  This sort of verbal sleight-of-hand seems... very Tiruinish.

[Leafsnail]

Leafsnail, apparently I didn't ruin anything as Ottofar hasn't appeared to have read my post. Also, is your wincon to kill all witches or not?

Or alternatively Ottofar pretended not to have read your post.  I'm pretty sure that's what happened in fact.

Also that's pretty clearly my wincon considering the trap I was trying to set up before you ruined it in return for a completely useless question.

I do stand by it, I'm not absolutely certain of the SK part, but I'm fairly sure a town member would not panic that much. And I am not certain of the reason, but if I took a guess, I'd think it has to do with the the fact that witch-elimination is a wincon.

Why did you pretend not to have read NQT's post?

[Leafsnail]

Like I mean christ, that wincon was basically a free mafia member dead and you just ruined it.

[ToonyMan]

Unvote Ottofar.


@Zombie Urist:

Also, I'm suspicious of Tiruin and Toonyman, who in case people weren't paying attention have both just claimed 3rd-party. They might still be pro-town, but I know from experience that Tiruin is adept at misrepresenting the aims of a 3rd party role:

Wait no there's a huge misunderstanding.  I'm town.  My character's flavor just wasn't happy with hunting witches (like you can read in the Day 1 start post).
That kind of makes me happy though, the fact you misunderstood that means you're genuinely not scum or you're a devious player.

He misunderstood you so he's not scum? How does that make sense?

I sort of leaped my reasoning there, but why would NQT be suspicious of my possibility as a third-party if he was mafia?  It's a not a connection a scum player would make as quickly I think.  I admit, after thinking it over mafia wouldn't know who are third-party though, however the intention seems to be there.


@NQT:

Toonyman

Wait no there's a huge misunderstanding.  I'm town.  My character's flavor just wasn't happy with hunting witches (like you can read in the Day 1 start post).

Okay well I stand corrected. So you're saying that despite your character's reticence you're wincon is still to see the witches dead?

Yes.


@Ottofar:

Toony

@Ottofar:

@Ottofar:
Look, I tied the votes.  We have over an entire day to deal with this dilemma though so I'm not worried.  I think you're more scummy than NQT.  And unless other people throw their chips in this isn't going to go anywhere.

Good for you. Why do you think so?

I could pick apart this post for adding literally nothing to this game, but let's be easy here.  Your vote on NQT was back from the very beginning of the game and you've just...left it on there.  You've made additional statements yes, but I like sticking my vote on somebody and not moving when I'm scum too.   Also, your main cases have been against NQT and Lenglon, who are both currently voting you.  And your lack of activity that just barely survives the prod time limit is apparent.  I don't feel as confident as a vote on someone I find more scummy, but I'm being adaptive here.  Since in mafia you're playing with other people there's a bit of leeway here.  For example, my vote on Zombie Urist only held lynching power when others were voting him as well.  If I were to switch my vote (though I'd prefer if NQT stays alive) it would be on Vector.
For further investigation, you have a possibility of dying right now, does that bother you?  Who do you think might save you?

I was in a hurry, and I found it easiest to reply to your post. But, to answer. Yes, it has. I nearly took the vote off, but decided against it, as I said. I have my reasons, and I do stand by them. I believe my case on NQT existed before he voted me. And yes, I've been trying to work on a post per day basis, but that clearly hasn't been enough, especially when I'ven't managed it. Sorry about that.
Dying really doesn't. Anyone who thinks NQT is more dangerous to the town than myself might save me.

A reasonable response.


@Dariush:

Errrrm, nope!  I thought you would figure it out which would be kind of neat.  Basically, at the time I had no more ammo left on Vector and didn't want to waste my vote, so what do I do?  Zombie Urist is pretty empty too, but I don't really want to see NQT get lynched.  But then there's Ottofar.  The fact NQT and Lenglon favor town to me probably helps with my decision.  So I put my vote on Ottofar, not only would I be fine with his lynch, but I also tie the vote now thanks to Deathsword bowing out.  Now another player will have to either have a change of heart or an outside player needs to vote NQT or Ottofar.  Thus, another player would have to come up with a reason to vote either NQT and Ottofar.

So... you admit to having no case and forcing everyone else to do your job for you, and additionally engage in a nifty bit of hypocrisy by accusing Ottofar of parking his vote while parking your vote on him. Why do you consider NQT town?
Also, what ZU said about shameless buddying. Though why would you buddy your scummate is another question...

A more apt observation would be what are you going to do about it?  How is placing my vote on Ottofar the same as him putting a vote on NQT a week ago?

Have anything else to say about the situation or are you disappointed your mislynch got fucked?

NQT is town because that's the impression I get off him.  I don't see how his concerns are anything but benevolent, if awkward.  He's participating far more than you are too.  PPE: He also seems to be aware of the town wincon which Leafsnail is cursing at.

Why are you sticking with Ottofar so much?  Why would you buddy your own scummate...


@Toaster & Vector:
I spy a quick-lynch on Tiruin.  Also you didn't answer Leafsnail's questions Vector.


@The whole Tiruin thing:
Yeah, I would say Tiruin is 95% third-party with her claim.  I'd prefer not going for a lazy lynch, but I wouldn't reject it like NQT's.  I don't think she's a witch.

PPE:
Hello Leafsnail.

[Vector]

That's a reasonable thing for me to ask, ToonyMan.  Leafsnail has showed up and doesn't feel like scum to me, so I unvoted and asked Tiruin.  Besides... is there any reason we shouldn't speedy quicklynch the third party?

Vector: If I had to condense the problem I'm having with your posts, it's that you're spending quite a lot of time and words in tangential discussions with Lenglon and Tiruin, while only touching on fairly superficial points when scumhunting (such as me talking about investigations, NQT's alleged focus on "instead").  It means I'm struggling to tell what your thoughts are on the core issues of the game, such as which people are mafia members.  Who do you think is mafia members?

Sorry I missed this.  I've been thinking about it.

I'm not sure who is, specifically, mafia members.  I'm convinced that Lenglon is town and Tiruin is scum of some sort.  Ottofar and NQT are looking bad, but I keep feeling like there's someone on the sidelines who I haven't caught onto yet.  Something just feels off.

I'm gathering intel, but I'll be arsed if I'm going to do this the high-energy way instead of the detail-focused way.  This group of players hasn't figured out yet just how important wording is so it's a valid hunting technique again, and I intend to save myself the emotional effort.  I can go through and make a big case with lots and lots of evidence, the way this subforum likes, when it's lynching time.  But right now I'm getting data my way.