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[Tiruin]

Heads up. Storm Signal 3 here. While it means no classes for me, it also means (PREPARE FOR CALAMITY) due to..well. Many things that involve human construction and its effects to the environment.

Because rain, wind, and floody roads. :<

Also, probability of no power and/or lightning strikes.

...
Lenglon

Tiruin: ok, I've got the answer I was looking for in amoungst that big ol' mess of confusion we just had. What's going on is I wanted to put you and Toony on the spot simply as a form of RVS-style "how do you think" question. you think asked me a some questions about how I thought in response, without answering mine. That was what I was referring too.

I believe the bolded statement talks about something you're getting before my last post then, huh?

Where did you get your answer? What was it, exactly?

Because it doesn't seem like it helps get information from the persons asked at all in how you make your question.

I don't feel a need to ask you to claim your description. keep it to yourself until you have a reason to claim.

So why do yours?

I am in my fourties, but look older.
My hair is brown with a touch of grey and rough-cut short.
my face is wrinkled and has several pockmarks.
I walk with a mildly stooped posture.
My clothes are mostly made from wool or linen in dull colors

...
Sit up straight. You'll get scoliosis. Wear more cotton, wool gives allergies. Look younger, eat more vegetables and fruits and exercise more. Oh, and sleep more, you look tired and worn.[/precautionaryrant]


ZU

The days been dragging but I guess I'll extend because I want to hear what pup/LS/ONR has to say.

"..Well, while my motivation is benevolent, it isn't in directly culling the witches from this town (...I'm implying it is such though, given my flavor context) but..err, this is where I'm confused. It's not confusion as in 'What is this and what shall I do', but confusion along the way of what others would do, per se.
"..Yes I know that sounds confusing, but what I do know is that, from the earliest visit here, that there are other forces than witches around.
"No, I've no idea whom or who, but that there is. I'm open to information and not withholding it like Leafsnail, but that I just can't get it is the point in this matter."

So you don't care about killing witches? Also you know that third parties exist? Are you third party?

Oh heck no, I do care muchly about killing witches, only that I've other conditions at hand.

On the second question: Yes, however I feel that the information I have at the moment is vague and superficial (meaning yes they exist, and that is all.) and I need to wait on further days to check on that matter.

On the third: I guess so. Town-aligned is my best bet if I am, and if I'm not, then I'm pretty much town given how:
a. I hate witchcraft.
b. That other thing which-I-said-I'm-confused-about.

Why do you ask, ZU?

PPE After Jim's post.


Toaster
I feel like you're pointing a few trivial bits used for padding a post in terms of showing scumhunting.

Talking IC is not a shield to being scumhunted.

> This is obvious. Where did he claim against such?

I never said that he didn't answer my question.  He did- I've never argued this point.  My argument is that he answered it in a scummy way, which I said:

Well, I'm glad you said that, but you stated that it was one of the primary points on your case against him--the fact that you are poking at his other dubious posts do not give credit to that mistake.

Because scummy is..what? You don't say what exactly is scummy, unless the whole thing is scummy. You seem to be intentionally missing the point.

    These- especially put together- are some pretty serious deflection.  You really don't like me implying that you're third party because you're out of town- as such, I do believe I will keep voting you.

Where 'these' refer to:

Spoiler: This. (click to show/hide)

Toaster

NQT:  In the first game, IIRC all the out-of-towners were third party.  Are you non-town?

"A most interesting suggestion, Monsieur Petit. I am not, as you say, a "third party". I am a journeyman carpenter. But, alors! We must not rule out ze possibility of townsfolk sharing connections through similar circumstances. On zat note..."

Toaster
"Monsiuer Petit, are you not also from out of town, as a farmer yourself?"

These- especially put together- are some pretty serious deflection.  You really don't like me implying that you're third party because you're out of town- as such, I do believe I will keep voting you.

To answer your question, no, I live nearby in an outlying farm.  I just have to haul up to the market to make my sales.

Now, I note that instead of admitting error, you evade it entirely.

Let me bold his answer, and your (mis?)understanding in orange.

Also, 'in a scummy way' does not confer to how you concluded that answer, dear sir. How scummy is it when he answered it in full?! You say it's in a scummy way, then you pull up the quote as if it'll explain itself.

Hey there Witch. Speak for yourself for once.

Blow off a case?  What?  You quoted me stating the entirety of my case at the moment, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Given that the post you have quoted here is from the first half of day 1, I'm not sure what deep reserves of material you're expecting me to bring.  What more were you expecting at this point?

I'll use my orange marker.

On that part, I did. The case? You aren't expounding on it, you're pointing back to how it's being explained, which is actually lacking in explanation.

As for your expounding:

Spoiler: This is long. (click to show/hide)

-snip-

I think this indicates that you don't understand my case.  Let's go back to the beginning:

(And I really should have quoted the next line in my first response to this post- it does really make it harder to see my point without that.)

Toaster

NQT:  In the first game, IIRC all the out-of-towners were third party.  Are you non-town?

"A most interesting suggestion, Monsieur Petit. I am not, as you say, a "third party". I am a journeyman carpenter. But, alors! We must not rule out ze possibility of townsfolk sharing connections through similar circumstances. On zat note..."

Dariush, Deathsword, Zombie Urist
"I could not help but notice zat you are all in the clothes trade. Do any of you work closely together? Also, are any of you new to Uzès?"

Yes, he answers my question.  If he had left it off with just the underlined bit, I wouldn't have batted an eye.  But no, he had to go on and direct the attention of out-of-towners elsewhere.  Then, in his very next post...

Toaster
"Monsiuer Petit, are you not also from out of town, as a farmer yourself?"

He turns it right back around on me!  Clearly, I have struck a nerve here.  If he had taken it as what it was- quick pressure- then I would have dropped it.  But no, he had to go on about it way more than what one would expect for a townie response.  Ergo, he has something to hide or this pressure resonated with him.  Either way, such is a scummy reaction.

So what is your case during that point at him? When you first read that note on you being out of town, what's so wrong with it? How does that even strike any nerves when it's worded that way? You can clearly see malevolence where I cannot--expound on that part please.

Does the orange part match with the purple part? That's what I'm thinking when you said that. What I saw? Him categorizing people to common labels (middleclassmen..producers of materials from raw goods.. those.). When you say direct the attention, I believe you sorely are evading the fact that you did miss the point on him answering your question explicitly and are making up for it in this type of redirecting logic.

...Also, it is rightfully inferred to ask that, as farmers are usually on the perimeter of cities wherein the function of the city itself is usually for commerce, marketing and other things not related to food growing which requires a heck lot of hectares.

...Ok, either I'm blind, or I'm not seeing where NQT is going, or perhaps pleading for his life. He's attracting attention, of course, but his attention was put in a directive way. 'See what they're doing to me'-ish.

Is this a scummy thing to do or not?

...Pleading for his life? Depending on the circumstances. In this circumstance, it is suspicious, though not outright scummy--there is something wrong with it, though, and I put that feeling as something to watch later on and be confused at.

Because you and NQT are really..being confusing. One makes a case on faulty basis, and the other makes..weak cases. Lynch lurkers or those who contributed least? How about those who are scummy.

Not "I am town" or "I'm not scum," but I'm not a witch.  In other words, you're third party.  Yep, you need to hang.

...Because he's third-party. Right. Hang those who are third party, or in other words, twist that notion to something you're implying solely out of a reason I can't get.

What's your basis for this? He said I'm not a witch. That leaves either Town or Third-Party.

Explain why you concluded the latter. Explain why that needs to hang.

NQT

They might still be pro-town, but I know from experience that Tiruin is adept at misrepresenting the aims of a 3rd party role

...I think you quotemined. Also, this came off as an insult due to the prefix 'mis-' >_>

That hurt me.

Toonyman, Tiruin, if your goal isn't to find witches then what it is it? We've all been speaking as if there were town, scum and then 3rd parties, but a cursory glance at the list of previous roles proves the lie in this: there are town aligned roles that might have slightly different goals (Villager, Vigilante, Inquisitor, Miller), and anti-town roles such as Witches and unknown malicious third-parties (probably something like elves or wizards, but a wee bit different).

Well, while my motivation is benevolent, it isn't in directly culling the witches from this town (...I'm implying it is such though, given my flavor context) but..err, this is where I'm confused.

> It wasn't mentioned that witches should be culled, BUT, they are a threat to my goal is as far as I can say. The confusion goes along that path as well as future implications.

So I'm not claiming my goal yet because..it's quite hard to explain, and will give those who threaten it an advantage if I did, regardless on whether I had an explanation or not. Why also on the confused portion? It deviates from common knowledge/concept on how it works. I won't banter on the matter though.

Also, where are the answers to my query NQT?

Next, could you in the least explain why you're after lynching those who contributed least as opposed to any other suspicious act? Somewhere going along the lines of scummy, for one?

Why are you going after the least contributor anyway? It appears to me that you're only voting him to save your skin.

[notquitethere]

Dariush

So, to sum your words up, he is a lazy, panicking piece of shit that hasn't done anything in the entire game except be scummy and try to shift attention onto lurkers, and for those reasons he should not be lynched. I don't give a fuck about his meta (he sucks regardless of his alignment), but I do give a fuck that he's been dropping scumtells like I can't even think of a good analogy

Bovine excrement big D. I'm not panicking, I just don't want to be mislynched. My line about fakeclaiming was just a truthful aside. Would you have fakeclaimed something like female carpenter? You're right that I am trying to shift attention to lurkers, because they're legitimately scummier than me. Do you think Ottofar's play has been good in this game? You said to ottofar at the begining of the game that focusing on just one player was a bad way to play and yet he's continued to do just that.

You can't even address my counterpoints and have resorted to flat out ignoring me and repeating the same nonsensical case, which makes you either scum or a terrible terrible player. I know you're bad at this, I'm just unsure how bad.

Tiruin

NQT

They might still be pro-town, but I know from experience that Tiruin is adept at misrepresenting the aims of a 3rd party role

...I think you quotemined. Also, this came off as an insult due to the prefix 'mis-' >_>

That hurt me.

Oh! I think there's a misunderstanding here. I was referring to how in Toon mafia you skillfully misrepresented your 3rd party role as benign when it was in fact very malign. It was a compliment, not an insult

Well, while my motivation is benevolent, it isn't in directly culling the witches from this town (...I'm implying it is such though, given my flavor context) but..err, this is where I'm confused.
> It wasn't mentioned that witches should be culled, BUT, they are a threat to my goal is as far as I can say. The confusion goes along that path as well as future implications.

So I'm not claiming my goal yet because..it's quite hard to explain, and will give those who threaten it an advantage if I did, regardless on whether I had an explanation or not. Why also on the confused portion? It deviates from common knowledge/concept on how it works.

I can understand that there's probably a broad range of pro-town goals and I can also understand that explaining your win condition could harm your chances of winning. I'm still not convinced what a pro-town role would look like if it isn't concerned with lynching witches.

Also could you rephrase the italicised portion as I have no idea what you meant.

Also, where are the answers to my query NQT?

Next, could you in the least explain why you're after lynching those who contributed least as opposed to any other suspicious act? Somewhere going along the lines of scummy, for one?

Why are you going after the least contributor anyway? It appears to me that you're only voting him to save your skin.

The query was about Ottofar who is the player I'm going after, so:

Not only has Ottofar contributed very little (a trait he shares with griffinpup and the now up-for-replacement Deathsword) but also has persisted with a case that has absolutely no merit, constantly shifting his reasons for voting me, none of his reasons making much sense. Toaster and Dariush also have terrible cases and I'd happily see them lynched as well, but shifting my vote at this point will get me killed. So I am voting him to save my skin but not only or even primarily to save my skin. Toaster is becoming more suspicious by the moment with his treatment of the statement I'd directed to him. First he ignored me, and then he misrepresented what I had been telling him. It's still possible that's he's as a kitchen appliance and hasn't realised what I was telling him. I'm waiting to see what his response is, but if he continues with his misrepresentation now that I've explicitly told him to dig deeper then he will have proved himself to be definitely scum and I will change my vote accordingly.

[Ottofar]

@Ottofar:
Look, I tied the votes.  We have over an entire day to deal with this dilemma though so I'm not worried.  I think you're more scummy than NQT.  And unless other people throw their chips in this isn't going to go anywhere.

Good for you. Why do you think so?

[zombie urist]

In-character would be a peaceful place, yeah.  I'm not sure how that's unclear, since the only other this would be "do not want witch-trials".
You're my second lynch pick right now, but I have a better idea at the moment.

That still doesn't quite make sense not to mention is pretty redundant. "A peaceful place is purely for the good of the people". "Do not want witch-trials is purely for the good of the people" isn't a well formed English sentence at all.
Anyways the important thing I got from this is that you probably tacked on that sentence and didn't think it through.

ZU

...

Why did you devote an entire post defending NQT? (fakeedit: There's another post where you discuss Toaster's arguments against NQT)

..Defending? I was poking at Ottofar's statements as they contradicted what I'm seeing.
What do you see in NQT's posts anyway?

My reason for NQT is being female and a carpenter, which I did not believe existed in this time period.

Yeah? What is this time period, then?
Tiruin darkly mumbles about sexist ignorant people.
Do you have proof about that, by the way?

NQT looks desperate to stay alive and he keeps trying to deflect to Ottofar. What do you see in his posts?
The time period is 1489.
I don't know what you want proof of.

Oh heck no, I do care muchly about killing witches, only that I've other conditions at hand.
On the second question: Yes, however I feel that the information I have at the moment is vague and superficial (meaning yes they exist, and that is all.) and I need to wait on further days to check on that matter.
On the third: I guess so. Town-aligned is my best bet if I am, and if I'm not, then I'm pretty much town given how:
a. I hate witchcraft.
b. That other thing which-I-said-I'm-confused-about.
Why do you ask, ZU?

The bolded portion doesn't make me feel any safer. I'm asking because finding and eliminating third party is necessary. Tiruin.

I think it's bizarre that so many of you seem to think that one can want stay alive too much. In a previous game (the second BM I was in) I shortened the game and died thinking that my flip would seal the case against (if I recall correctly) TheWetSheep, but it turned out scum was Tiruin who ended up winning. We're supposed to try and win the game and as we cannot trust our compatriots to act sensibly, we must try and stay alive. To put it another way: I cannot know for certain that anyone else is scum until they flip, but I know that I'm town so far better that the scummiest other player that I can get lynched get lynched. But you seem to think that there is a time and a place for town to stop questioning the cases against them and lie down and die. Are you saying that if you get put under a lot of pressure as town, the right thing to do is throw your hands up and give up? I'm not sure there's a charitable way of reading what you seem to be saying.

Doesn't that example counter what you're saying? There's a whole continuum between questioning cases and lying down and giving up. Besides if you do get lynched and flip town then the BS nature of the cases will be revealed anyways. The "correct" town thing to do isn't to spend huge posts defending yourself and denouncing all your attackers as scum because town make mistakes all the time, as shown in your example.

To answer your question, I'm still a bit suspicious of Leafsnail. He's the only person not to have claimed his name and profession. On it's own that's not enough to lynch someone but it is a bit eyebrow raising. He's also said he thinks we're on track for a mislynch and that we need to actively select our lynch target but he isn't voting Ottofar nor has he entreated others to vote for Vector (someone nobody else is voting). Again, this isn't anywhere near enough to lynch someone over but cumulatively alarm bells are ringing. I know that when I've played as scum I've denounced the case against the townsperson about to be lynched without really going out of my way to stop it from happening.

This is sneaky deflection.

Also, I'm suspicious of Tiruin and Toonyman, who in case people weren't paying attention have both just claimed 3rd-party. They might still be pro-town, but I know from experience that Tiruin is adept at misrepresenting the aims of a 3rd party role:

Wait where did this happen? Tiruin kinda claimed third party after this post.

You're right that I am trying to shift attention to lurkers, because they're legitimately scummier than me.

This just doesn't work.

@Ottofar:
Look, I tied the votes.  We have over an entire day to deal with this dilemma though so I'm not worried.  I think you're more scummy than NQT.  And unless other people throw their chips in this isn't going to go anywhere.

Good for you. Why do you think so?

It'd be nice if you answered my question and put in more effort. 

[Vector]

Will post later today, but taking time to sort some things.

[ToonyMan]

@Lenglon:

Toonyman: what makes Ottofar more scummy than NQT? you didn't post a reason when you voted beyond "he seems more scummy".

Hold on a moment, I have an answer below.


@Leafsnail:
Your reads seems sincere...also,

Vector: If I had to condense the problem I'm having with your posts, it's that you're spending quite a lot of time and words in tangential discussions with Lenglon and Tiruin, while only touching on fairly superficial points when scumhunting (such as me talking about investigations, NQT's alleged focus on "instead").  It means I'm struggling to tell what your thoughts are on the core issues of the game, such as which people are mafia members.  Who do you think is mafia members?

While that's agreeable and all (I was voting Vector just before after all), why are you avoiding the prime lynches?  Even if my vote was still on Vector it would only be two votes and wouldn't hold enough power for a lynch unless we doubled our assets.


@Toaster & Tiruin:
Toaster is probably right overall in his arguments, every point Tiruin has addresses like the "he answered your question fully!" were rebutted with something like "but right afterwards he misdirected everybody with twice as many words" which I can't disagree with.  In fact Toaster probably has the best case on NQT.  No Dariush you don't count.


@Zombie Urist:

Its problematic but there's an easy way to solve that. I do agree that excessively trying to stay alive is scummy. I don't remember defending him. 

Ottofar: Who's scummy besides NQT?
NQT: Who's the scummiest person who isn't currently voting you?

I know there's some stuff I'm not addressing but I'm going to sleep. 

I had to restrain myself from voting you immediately after reading this post.  It reeks of "phew pressure is off of me now from the big bad scary men, everything is fine now ".

In-character would be a peaceful place, yeah.  I'm not sure how that's unclear, since the only other this would be "do not want witch-trials".
You're my second lynch pick right now, but I have a better idea at the moment.

That still doesn't quite make sense not to mention is pretty redundant. "A peaceful place is purely for the good of the people". "Do not want witch-trials is purely for the good of the people" isn't a well formed English sentence at all.
Anyways the important thing I got from this is that you probably tacked on that sentence and didn't think it through.

Yep.


@NQT:

Also, I'm suspicious of Tiruin and Toonyman, who in case people weren't paying attention have both just claimed 3rd-party. They might still be pro-town, but I know from experience that Tiruin is adept at misrepresenting the aims of a 3rd party role:

Wait no there's a huge misunderstanding.  I'm town.  My character's flavor just wasn't happy with hunting witches (like you can read in the Day 1 start post).

That kind of makes me happy though, the fact you misunderstood that means you're genuinely not scum or you're a devious player.


@Dariush:

Toony, let's play a game. I will guess what you're doing and then you will say how close to the mark I am. Okay? Well, I can't hear you and you can't read this post until I, well, post it, so I'll assume you agree. Okay, here is my guess: You saw that your scumbuddy is the leader in votes this close to day end and you decided to tie the votes for a non-existent reason to save him. You didn't explain why you consider OF more scummy (or scummy at all, since I don't remember you addressing him at all) and you didn't explain what those opinion-changing chips might be. You haven't asked OF any questions, so he has no way to defend himself. Thus, you have a tie-making vote you put there without any explanation and self-admittedly aren't planning to shift anywhere. Okay, I'm done. Was I correct? (hint: yes, I was)

Errrrm, nope!  I thought you would figure it out which would be kind of neat.  Basically, at the time I had no more ammo left on Vector and didn't want to waste my vote, so what do I do?  Zombie Urist is pretty empty too, but I don't really want to see NQT get lynched.  But then there's Ottofar.  The fact NQT and Lenglon favor town to me probably helps with my decision.  So I put my vote on Ottofar, not only would I be fine with his lynch, but I also tie the vote now thanks to Deathsword bowing out.  Now another player will have to either have a change of heart or an outside player needs to vote NQT or Ottofar.  Thus, another player would have to come up with a reason to vote either NQT and Ottofar.

Of course there's some criticism, tying the vote is generally booed upon and I didn't have time to make an actual case on Ottofar (though I haven't favor him town this game).  I also lacked the thought of somebody else being lynched like Vector or Zombie Urist, but I figured within 24 hours there wouldn't be three vote changes onto somebody like that.  In fact I think it's still a tie, but I'm sure that'll change in our now extended-again day.


@Ottofar:

@Ottofar:
Look, I tied the votes.  We have over an entire day to deal with this dilemma though so I'm not worried.  I think you're more scummy than NQT.  And unless other people throw their chips in this isn't going to go anywhere.

Good for you. Why do you think so?

I could pick apart this post for adding literally nothing to this game, but let's be easy here.  Your vote on NQT was back from the very beginning of the game and you've just...left it on there.  You've made additional statements yes, but I like sticking my vote on somebody and not moving when I'm scum too.  It's like the polar opposite of vote-swapping.  Also, your main cases have been against NQT and Lenglon, who are both currently voting you.  And your lack of activity that just barely survives the prod time limit is apparent.  I don't feel as confident as a vote on someone I find more scummy, but I'm being adaptive here.  Since in mafia you're playing with other people there's a bit of leeway here.  For example, my vote on Zombie Urist only held lynching power when others were voting him as well.  If I were to switch my vote (though I'd prefer if NQT stays alive) it would be on Vector.

For further investigation, you have a possibility of dying right now, does that bother you?  Who do you think might save you?


The absence of Deathsword (yeah I know they dropped) and Griffinpup is bothersome, Griffinpup should be back before day end though.  Also Okami needs to post too, probably passed out under the couch or something.

[Toaster]

NQT:

Toaster
I explicitly said I wasn't 3rd party, you even quoted where I said it. I'm going to give you one last chance as it's still possible that you're being as dense as your namesake. Unless you have a crumb tray where your rational faculties ought be you'll know exactly what I was saying when I told you to think back to your previous witches games and reflect on what I was doing early on this game. I'm calling you out as confirmed scum if you don't see what I'm saying. You're allowed to disbelieve me but you should at least stop misrepresenting what I'm telling you.

Okay, I'll grant you this one.  You said "I'm not a witch" within the context of your previous claim of not being third party, when I read it separately.  Consider my complaint on that post dropped.  The rest of the case stands, though.  I really have no idea what you're trying to say with regards to previous games, though.

Toaster, Ottofar-- your NQT=3rd party, we should lynch 3rd party case against me looks even worse now that two players have actually claimed 3rd party (something I have resolutely not done). I'm guessing because you're both in tunnel-mode that you missed this. Are you going to try and lynch them too?

Toonyman, Tiruin, if your goal isn't to find witches then what it is it? We've all been speaking as if there were town, scum and then 3rd parties, but a cursory glance at the list of previous roles proves the lie in this: there are town aligned roles that might have slightly different goals (Villager, Vigilante, Inquisitor, Miller), and anti-town roles such as Witches and unknown malicious third-parties (probably something like elves or wizards, but a wee bit different).

This, however, I would like to see an answer to from Tiruin and Toonyman.

Never mind, Tiruin responded.  PPE:  Toonyman too.  I read both of those statements again and thought that they were referring to flavor-based thinking, not alignment.  Toony said as such and I buy it (with regards to your quote) but Tiruin needs special mention.  Looks like you're on to something!


Tiruin:

Toaster
I feel like you're pointing a few trivial bits used for padding a post in terms of showing scumhunting.

I feel like you're endlessly asking me to repeat myself.

Talking IC is not a shield to being scumhunted.

> This is obvious. Where did he claim against such?

He didn't.  I read your defense of him:

> Disproportionate..seems much like that. I saw it as a neutral answer where he stated..IC. While it is suspicious, it could also be said that (1), he chose to answer it IC (yet it is strange seeing how he doesn't address it explicitly, he does [prior to bad semantics] say  I am not, as you say, a "third party". I am a journeyman carpenter." The second sentence throws it off.)

...as you saying such.  Underlined for emphasis.

I never said that he didn't answer my question.  He did- I've never argued this point.  My argument is that he answered it in a scummy way, which I said:

Well, I'm glad you said that, but you stated that it was one of the primary points on your case against him--the fact that you are poking at his other dubious posts do not give credit to that mistake.

Because scummy is..what? You don't say what exactly is scummy, unless the whole thing is scummy. You seem to be intentionally missing the point.

    These- especially put together- are some pretty serious deflection.  You really don't like me implying that you're third party because you're out of town- as such, I do believe I will keep voting you.

Where 'these' refer to:

Spoiler: This. (click to show/hide)

Toaster

NQT:  In the first game, IIRC all the out-of-towners were third party.  Are you non-town?

"A most interesting suggestion, Monsieur Petit. I am not, as you say, a "third party". I am a journeyman carpenter. But, alors! We must not rule out ze possibility of townsfolk sharing connections through similar circumstances. On zat note..."

Toaster
"Monsiuer Petit, are you not also from out of town, as a farmer yourself?"

These- especially put together- are some pretty serious deflection.  You really don't like me implying that you're third party because you're out of town- as such, I do believe I will keep voting you.

To answer your question, no, I live nearby in an outlying farm.  I just have to haul up to the market to make my sales.

Now, I note that instead of admitting error, you evade it entirely.

Let me bold his answer, and your (mis?)understanding in orange.

Also, 'in a scummy way' does not confer to how you concluded that answer, dear sir. How scummy is it when he answered it in full?! You say it's in a scummy way, then you pull up the quote as if it'll explain itself.

Hey there Witch. Speak for yourself for once.

*sigh*

I have said this.  Allow me to quote myself yet again:

I think this indicates that you don't understand my case.  Let's go back to the beginning:

(And I really should have quoted the next line in my first response to this post- it does really make it harder to see my point without that.)

Toaster

NQT:  In the first game, IIRC all the out-of-towners were third party.  Are you non-town?

"A most interesting suggestion, Monsieur Petit. I am not, as you say, a "third party". I am a journeyman carpenter. But, alors! We must not rule out ze possibility of townsfolk sharing connections through similar circumstances. On zat note..."

Dariush, Deathsword, Zombie Urist
"I could not help but notice zat you are all in the clothes trade. Do any of you work closely together? Also, are any of you new to Uzès?"

Yes, he answers my question.  If he had left it off with just the underlined bit, I wouldn't have batted an eye.  But no, he had to go on and direct the attention of out-of-towners elsewhere.  Then, in his very next post...

Toaster
"Monsiuer Petit, are you not also from out of town, as a farmer yourself?"

He turns it right back around on me!  Clearly, I have struck a nerve here.  If he had taken it as what it was- quick pressure- then I would have dropped it.  But no, he had to go on about it way more than what one would expect for a townie response.  Ergo, he has something to hide or this pressure resonated with him.  Either way, such is a scummy reaction.

If you don't understand this, then I'm not sure what else to tell you.

Spoiler: Spoilered quote for length (click to show/hide)

-snip-

I think this indicates that you don't understand my case.  Let's go back to the beginning:

(And I really should have quoted the next line in my first response to this post- it does really make it harder to see my point without that.)

Toaster

NQT:  In the first game, IIRC all the out-of-towners were third party.  Are you non-town?

"A most interesting suggestion, Monsieur Petit. I am not, as you say, a "third party". I am a journeyman carpenter. But, alors! We must not rule out ze possibility of townsfolk sharing connections through similar circumstances. On zat note..."

Dariush, Deathsword, Zombie Urist
"I could not help but notice zat you are all in the clothes trade. Do any of you work closely together? Also, are any of you new to Uzès?"

Yes, he answers my question.  If he had left it off with just the underlined bit, I wouldn't have batted an eye.  But no, he had to go on and direct the attention of out-of-towners elsewhere.  Then, in his very next post...

Toaster
"Monsiuer Petit, are you not also from out of town, as a farmer yourself?"

He turns it right back around on me!  Clearly, I have struck a nerve here.  If he had taken it as what it was- quick pressure- then I would have dropped it.  But no, he had to go on about it way more than what one would expect for a townie response.  Ergo, he has something to hide or this pressure resonated with him.  Either way, such is a scummy reaction.

So what is your case during that point at him? When you first read that note on you being out of town, what's so wrong with it? How does that even strike any nerves when it's worded that way? You can clearly see malevolence where I cannot--expound on that part please.

Does the orange part match with the purple part? That's what I'm thinking when you said that. What I saw? Him categorizing people to common labels (middleclassmen..producers of materials from raw goods.. those.). When you say direct the attention, I believe you sorely are evading the fact that you did miss the point on him answering your question explicitly and are making up for it in this type of redirecting logic.

...Also, it is rightfully inferred to ask that, as farmers are usually on the perimeter of cities wherein the function of the city itself is usually for commerce, marketing and other things not related to food growing which requires a heck lot of hectares.

...Ok, either I'm blind, or I'm not seeing where NQT is going, or perhaps pleading for his life. He's attracting attention, of course, but his attention was put in a directive way. 'See what they're doing to me'-ish.

Is this a scummy thing to do or not?

...Pleading for his life? Depending on the circumstances. In this circumstance, it is suspicious, though not outright scummy--there is something wrong with it, though, and I put that feeling as something to watch later on and be confused at.

Because you and NQT are really..being confusing. One makes a case on faulty basis, and the other makes..weak cases. Lynch lurkers or those who contributed least? How about those who are scummy.

Here is the crux of your problem, I believe:

Does the orange part match with the purple part? That's what I'm thinking when you said that. What I saw? Him categorizing people to common labels (middleclassmen..producers of materials from raw goods.. those.). When you say direct the attention, I believe you sorely are evading the fact that you did miss the point on him answering your question explicitly and are making up for it in this type of redirecting logic.

I never- ever- said he didn't answer the question.  I saw his answer the very first time.  Not ever have I said his lack of answer was scummy.  Go ahead- quote me where I said otherwise.

Without this, your accusations fall flat.

Not "I am town" or "I'm not scum," but I'm not a witch.  In other words, you're third party.  Yep, you need to hang.

...Because he's third-party. Right. Hang those who are third party, or in other words, twist that notion to something you're implying solely out of a reason I can't get.

What's your basis for this? He said I'm not a witch. That leaves either Town or Third-Party.

Explain why you concluded the latter. Explain why that needs to hang.

See my above response to NQT.  This one I misinterpreted and I'm willing to believe him on this particular point.

That leaves either Town or Third-Party.

Explain why you concluded the latter. Explain why that needs to hang.

What, you don't think third party should hang?  Wonder why that is.

Toonyman, Tiruin, if your goal isn't to find witches then what it is it? We've all been speaking as if there were town, scum and then 3rd parties, but a cursory glance at the list of previous roles proves the lie in this: there are town aligned roles that might have slightly different goals (Villager, Vigilante, Inquisitor, Miller), and anti-town roles such as Witches and unknown malicious third-parties (probably something like elves or wizards, but a wee bit different).

Well, while my motivation is benevolent, it isn't in directly culling the witches from this town (...I'm implying it is such though, given my flavor context) but..err, this is where I'm confused.

> It wasn't mentioned that witches should be culled, BUT, they are a threat to my goal is as far as I can say. The confusion goes along that path as well as future implications.

So I'm not claiming my goal yet because..it's quite hard to explain, and will give those who threaten it an advantage if I did, regardless on whether I had an explanation or not. Why also on the confused portion? It deviates from common knowledge/concept on how it works. I won't banter on the matter though.

Oh, it's because YOU are third party, and don't want the witch hunt (pun intended) to extend to you.   So, Tiruin, I am calling you out.  Are you third party?  (So you say it cleanly for the record.)  What kind?  What is your goal?  Why shouldn't you be lynched?  Why should we believe anything you say?


Ottofar:  Why are you ignoring questions and not hunting scum?


Vector:  Tiruin appears to be claiming third party.  What is your reaction to this?

[Reverie]

Things are settling down for me now--the real question is whether I want to sell my soul to the Mafia gods.

[zombie urist]

Also, I'm suspicious of Tiruin and Toonyman, who in case people weren't paying attention have both just claimed 3rd-party. They might still be pro-town, but I know from experience that Tiruin is adept at misrepresenting the aims of a 3rd party role:

Wait no there's a huge misunderstanding.  I'm town.  My character's flavor just wasn't happy with hunting witches (like you can read in the Day 1 start post).
That kind of makes me happy though, the fact you misunderstood that means you're genuinely not scum or you're a devious player.

He misunderstood you so he's not scum? How does that make sense?

[Leafsnail]

While that's agreeable and all (I was voting Vector just before after all), why are you avoiding the prime lynches?  Even if my vote was still on Vector it would only be two votes and wouldn't hold enough power for a lynch unless we doubled our assets.

That's true, but I wasn't seeing too much to recommend the Ottofar lynch and I thought it was still swingable.  However, I've just noticed something.  Unvote (still expecting an answer from Vector).

I am voting you basically because you're desperate to stay alive. Because you're panicking over the possibility of actually getting lynched. Because I think you're third party, and probably a SK since you didn't claim a survivor.

Ottofar.  Do you stand by this paragraph?  Do you understand why I am voting you for this paragraph, and if you do then would you like to clarify your accusation in some way?

[Leafsnail]

If anyone other than Ottofar tries to answer or strike down any of those questions I will treat them as a mafia member.

[Okami No Rei]

Sorry about the absence.  The weekend was busier than I expected.

Zombie Urist

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What he did in the first post does not match with his explanations. Firstly he said "rolefishing" in the post 1 but something else in post 2. Also his claim that he tried to do damage control by throwing his own weight behind, yet he described it as "rolefishing" as well as hinting that it might be needed for witches which doesn't seem to support his cause.

Rolefishing is one possible explanation for NQT's action.  Assuming he's scum, it's the most likely explanation.  That's why I picked rolefishing for the initial accusation. 

After that, I really don't care about the rolefishing, since what I wanted from NQT was not a justification for the specific charge of rolefishing, but rather an explanation of what he was actually doing and why he thinks it will help Town.

Why did you go with something simple rather than what you thought he was actually doing?

Simple possibilities are more likely to be right.  If he'd focused on the rolefishing accusation (as, I might add, you yourself are doing), that would be another indicator that he's scum, since he'd be demonstrably unable to get out of the scum mindset.  As for what he's actually doing, I didn't know.  That's why I questioned him about it.

Its not a semantics argument. I think you chose the word "potentially" because it allows you to be correct no matter what NQT turns out to be. If he is scum, then you were right and what he did was scummy. If he isn't then what he did could "potentially" have been scummy, but it wasn't.

I said "potentially" because his action could be interpreted as scum or town, and I hadn't decided what I was going to interpret it as.  I wanted to hear NQT's explanation before I made the decision.

"We" is an interesting word here. It looks both like buddying and painting yourself as town.

I know how this game goes.  If I use first or second-person pronouns when referring to us as Town, you pin me as scum for buddying.  If I refer to the Town players in third person, you pin me as scum for not relating to Town.  Damned if I do, damned if I don't.  You're nitpicking now, and I can see my vote on you is well-earned.

Also you are assuming every townie would agree to claiming.

I did make that assumption from the start of the game, yes.

It was both. I found it scummy, so I put a pressure vote and wanted the vote and accompanying post to push the game out of RVS.

Backpedaling again.  Let me show you what this looks like to me:

It was both, but it was really only the first thing I said.  I was lying through my teeth trying to downplay my scumminess with that second quote.

Unless you grew up in prison or something I don't really see how it can affect your role or be ambiguous.

Not prison, but you're on the right track.  Like I said, I'm holding off on that until it's time to roleclaim.

I saw a post which was scummy and I pointed out why it was scummy.

So, let me get this straight.  You had a few issues with one of my posts, and felt that that was sufficient justification to drop everything to attack me aggressively enough that you believed it would end RVS.  You somehow still think this doesn't qualify as tunneling.  Do I have that much, at least, correct?

I should take offense to that.  I put a good deal of thought into those questions.

Doesn't look like it.

Are you not satisfied with the explanations I provided?  Looks to me like you're insisting you have a valid point with no solid ground to stand on.

I don't (and I think most people wouldn't) consider "extreme situations" because by they are by definition extreme. Its why I don't prepare for meteor strikes when I go outside.

And why not?  Have you ever thought about preparing for a zombie apocalypse?  What if you're abducted by aliens?  How would you react if someone sitting at a table across from you in a restaurant started choking on a fishbone?  Do you keep a first aid kit and/or a fire extinguisher in your house?

Its ok if you like them, but you missed the most important part. Where games are you using to judge Vector's meta?

None, at the moment.  Meta-reads based on prior gameplay are only one aspect of the art.  At this point I'm attempting to predict how she will adjust her meta for this game specifically.  Yes, it's speculative.  No, there's no way in hell I'd try to use any results in an argument.  They're intended use is to shortcut scumhunting so I know where to focus my energy.

Also I think you misunderstood what I meant by faked. I mean that I can say "Player X always does blah when he's scum" even if that's not true.

I see.  In my opinion, if someone actually is trying to use meta as an attack, they had better bring supporting evidence.  Otherwise the attack reeks of scumminess.

Meta reads as defense are fuzzy territory.  If the defender can bring evidence, great, but without evidence meta reads are identical to intuition from the outside view.  For that, I'd say they're appropriate wherever intuition is appropriate as a defense.  It's a very weak defense, yes, but it is a defense nonetheless, and it's up to the judgement of the attacker and the rest of the town to judge whether it's sufficient for whatever accusation was made.

This is also to Lenglon but I think RVS is just meant to create content to discuss.

*sigh*
Questions -> Reads == Questions -> Content -> Reads
Are you capable of making intuitive leaps of your own, or do we have to go over every single step of every single train of logic?

[Tiruin]

Moody day >__>

zu

Oh heck no, I do care muchly about killing witches, only that I've other conditions at hand.
On the second question: Yes, however I feel that the information I have at the moment is vague and superficial (meaning yes they exist, and that is all.) and I need to wait on further days to check on that matter.
On the third: I guess so. Town-aligned is my best bet if I am, and if I'm not, then I'm pretty much town given how:
a. I hate witchcraft.
b. That other thing which-I-said-I'm-confused-about.
Why do you ask, ZU?

The bolded portion doesn't make me feel any safer. I'm asking because finding and eliminating third party is necessary. Tiruin.

"Eliminating."

"Necessary."

Expound. Explain why this takes precedence over scum, and explain your take on third-parties in general, and in specific situations as I see the latter term applies to your passive-aggression here.

Why should I put something up as a defense to make you feel safer, hypothetically? I'm explaining myself there, and any interpretation of my words can be done.

But safer? Why would you be so easily calmed by such?


Toaster

That leaves either Town or Third-Party.

Explain why you concluded the latter. Explain why that needs to hang.

What, you don't think third party should hang?  Wonder why that is.

Nice evasion mister.

A third-party can comprise anything from benevolent to neutral to malevolent. Is it explicitly needed to be hung?

I want reasons, not roundabout questions and implied answers, Witch.


Let me ask you this hypothetical: Is a third-party a definite evil to the town?

Toonyman, Tiruin, if your goal isn't to find witches then what it is it? We've all been speaking as if there were town, scum and then 3rd parties, but a cursory glance at the list of previous roles proves the lie in this: there are town aligned roles that might have slightly different goals (Villager, Vigilante, Inquisitor, Miller), and anti-town roles such as Witches and unknown malicious third-parties (probably something like elves or wizards, but a wee bit different).

Well, while my motivation is benevolent, it isn't in directly culling the witches from this town (...I'm implying it is such though, given my flavor context) but..err, this is where I'm confused.

> It wasn't mentioned that witches should be culled, BUT, they are a threat to my goal is as far as I can say. The confusion goes along that path as well as future implications.

So I'm not claiming my goal yet because..it's quite hard to explain, and will give those who threaten it an advantage if I did, regardless on whether I had an explanation or not. Why also on the confused portion? It deviates from common knowledge/concept on how it works. I won't banter on the matter though.

Oh, it's because YOU are third party, and don't want the witch hunt (pun intended) to extend to you.   So, Tiruin, I am calling you out.  Are you third party?  (So you say it cleanly for the record.)  What kind?  What is your goal?  Why shouldn't you be lynched?  Why should we believe anything you say?

:O Oh noes! The horrendous twisting of my words hurt. I snark at you for the insult.

No, I don't care if the witch hunt is extended to me. You can persecute me all you want, for good reason, however I do note that you do it with suspicious fervor there that you conclude an extreme before doing anything else.

Who has to fear the general third-party? Witches.

Tiruin pouts, then shakes her head at the incompetency.

You know what? Yeah. I'm third-party; a third-party who shares the same goal as the town, theoretically [well, ok, in theory: No killing roles.], and who wishes to remove all threats to my said wincondition. The witch part? I infer that they've got a NK.

You don't need to draw all the points and 'call me out', to emphasize it for bonus points. Yet I shall not adhere to your blatant rolefishing.

But for posterity's sake, I'm definitely sure that there are 2 other third-party alignments. This, I withhold until I can further my information. No, saying it out won't help as I see it, as it's a generalist information I've gotten.

Why shouldn't I be lynched? Do you want me to give reasons on that extremist point? It's all up to you, and/or everyone else to decide on that point and ascertain whether or not the target must be lynched under grounds of logic and communication. That sort of question is quite..I can't find the word for it. Strange? Out of place? It's like you're taking the role of a judge on that part and as if you've got power over me.

As for believing anything I say--that's relative. As well as believing everything everyone else says. *handwaves argument* You want to stereotype? Go do so. Whatever consequence of that will be attributed to ignorance.

I mean, heck. Sure, we can attribute third-party to the neutral jerk who picks sides and doesn't care about stuff, or wishes to kill people for the heck of it, but...that's really shocking seeing your extremism there. And it being shared by ZU given his point of view on it.

How do you view a third-party? Why should they be hanged in lieu of unclaimed scummy people? Should they be hanged if they are third-party, and nothing else?

Somehow, I feel like you don't care about finding witches yourself and are using an assertive stance to shade it as you attack others.

Vector:  Tiruin appears to be claiming third party.  What is your reaction to this?

Running up to Vector and asking for backup, I presume? Why Vector of all people?

Lastly, what your remark to NQT is, is my point on you.

Okay, I'll grant you this one.  You said "I'm not a witch" within the context of your previous claim of not being third party, when I read it separately.  Consider my complaint on that post dropped.  [...]

A very nice startup until you found something actually suspicious about him. The bolded portion contradicts whatever you posted towards me, however, as only now after I shown you the error, you backtrack.

Coward.

Leafsnail

If anyone other than Ottofar tries to answer or strike down any of those questions I will treat them as a mafia member.

...Why would anyone other than Ottofar answer that when it's addressed to Ottofar?


NQT

NQT

They might still be pro-town, but I know from experience that Tiruin is adept at misrepresenting the aims of a 3rd party role

...I think you quotemined. Also, this came off as an insult due to the prefix 'mis-' >_>

That hurt me.

Oh! I think there's a misunderstanding here. I was referring to how in Toon mafia you skillfully misrepresented your 3rd party role as benign when it was in fact very malign. It was a compliment, not an insult

MISREPRESENTED?! :I

Ugh. Alright, let me give the context there. I was a SK- I couldn't kill until I ritual'd for 2 days. Wherein I can't move from house.

Post-ritual, I could kill, and move at the same night. It was only malign if all objectives were completed (which they were )...So no. Not a misunderstanding. I read my role 3 times over.

And I was serious when I said I didn't want to kill you all. Just..eat a few. See?

Well, while my motivation is benevolent, it isn't in directly culling the witches from this town (...I'm implying it is such though, given my flavor context) but..err, this is where I'm confused.
> It wasn't mentioned that witches should be culled, BUT, they are a threat to my goal is as far as I can say. The confusion goes along that path as well as future implications.

So I'm not claiming my goal yet because..it's quite hard to explain, and will give those who threaten it an advantage if I did, regardless on whether I had an explanation or not. Why also on the confused portion? It deviates from common knowledge/concept on how it works.

I can understand that there's probably a broad range of pro-town goals and I can also understand that explaining your win condition could harm your chances of winning. I'm still not convinced what a pro-town role would look like if it isn't concerned with lynching witches.

Also could you rephrase the italicised portion as I have no idea what you meant.

..It is concerned, just that it isn't written in the wincon. >_> Look, while I did say 'it isn't in directly culling the witches from this town' I was referring to the wincon-my character doesn't prioritize those things, but sees a larger, greater threat on the horizon.

Something greater than witches.

On the italicized portion? If I were to claim my wincon and who I am right now, it'd draw a hell lot of speculation, suspicion (because it seems many players are going along their safety blanket and all), give those who I'm against a huge advantage, and confuse townies even more. Confuse by the idea that it's..really weird in a sense.

However, warning ahead, paranoia isn't a good thing to follow. Take this as you will, I'm operating on limited time IRL, posting from thought and memory.

Also, where are the answers to my query NQT?

Next, could you in the least explain why you're after lynching those who contributed least as opposed to any other suspicious act? Somewhere going along the lines of scummy, for one?

Why are you going after the least contributor anyway? It appears to me that you're only voting him to save your skin.

The query was about Ottofar who is the player I'm going after, so:

-snip-

Well he responded to ToonyMan, how do you take that?

Things are settling down for me now--the real question is whether I want to sell my soul to the Mafia gods.

Oh hey, you! Welcome back! Hope you're doing fine there.

[notquitethere]

Toonyman

Wait no there's a huge misunderstanding.  I'm town.  My character's flavor just wasn't happy with hunting witches (like you can read in the Day 1 start post).

Okay well I stand corrected. So you're saying that despite your character's reticence you're wincon is still to see the witches dead?

Toaster

I really have no idea what you're trying to say with regards to previous games, though.

I'm struggling to believe that you're really this dense. What's the one thing you told everyone about your previous two games? Read back if you've forgotten. Think about my early game. Make some sense now?

Tiruin

MISREPRESENTED?! :I

Ugh. Alright, let me give the context there. I was a SK- I couldn't kill until I ritual'd for 2 days. Wherein I can't move from house.

Post-ritual, I could kill, and move at the same night. It was only malign if all objectives were completed (which they were )...So no. Not a misunderstanding. I read my role 3 times over.

And I was serious when I said I didn't want to kill you all. Just..eat a few. See?

I don't really want to persist unduly with this aside, but you still don't see what I was saying. To 'misrepresent' is to present something as one thing when it's really another. I'm not saying you misunderstood your role in Toon Mafia, you understood it all too well. You presented your role as pro-town when it was really anti-town. This isn't a criticism: that was good 3rd-party play. I'm saying that you're good at misrepresenting your role, and apparently you're also good at misunderstanding me.

It is concerned, just that it isn't written in the wincon. >_> Look, while I did say 'it isn't in directly culling the witches from this town' I was referring to the wincon-my character doesn't prioritize those things, but sees a larger, greater threat on the horizon.

Something greater than witches.

On the italicized portion? If I were to claim my wincon and who I am right now, it'd draw a hell lot of speculation, suspicion (because it seems many players are going along their safety blanket and all), give those who I'm against a huge advantage, and confuse townies even more. Confuse by the idea that it's..really weird in a sense.

However, warning ahead, paranoia isn't a good thing to follow. Take this as you will, I'm operating on limited time IRL, posting from thought and memory.

So you're saying that there's a second threatening faction more deadly than witches. Given that there's 13 players and the nature of what happened in the last games, that's not an implausible claim. Surely though, these non-witch villains will know who they are and will know you oppose them in saying this, so really you've already outed yourself. Why not give us some information so that we can better prepare for this threat. If it's not witches is it still magical?

Well he responded to ToonyMan, how do you take that?

You call that a response? Ottofar is bankrupt: he has no arguments left. You're implicitly defending him. Ignoring everyone in the entire game in favour of one player and then showing a complete inability to counter the counterarguments against his single case (a case that keeps shifting) is scummy. Ottofar is a witch or malicious third party or so incompetent at this game that all bets are off.

griffinpup
Hopefully you'll arrive before day's end. I'd like your input on the day's proceedings.

Mods
Is Birdy taking over for Deathsword?

[Tiruin]

@NQT: The misrepresented thing was me exclaiming it in a joking manner, denoted by the smiley at the end. I got your point in the first time.

Anyway.

So you're saying that there's a second threatening faction more deadly than witches. Given that there's 13 players and the nature of what happened in the last games, that's not an implausible claim. Surely though, these non-witch villains will know who they are and will know you oppose them in saying this, so really you've already outed yourself. Why not give us some information so that we can better prepare for this threat. If it's not witches is it still magical?

Err, what does the question refer to? You know something about them?

You call that a response? Ottofar is bankrupt: he has no arguments left. You're implicitly defending him. Ignoring everyone in the entire game in favour of one player and then showing a complete inability to counter the counterarguments against his single case (a case that keeps shifting) is scummy. Ottofar is a witch or malicious third party or so incompetent at this game that all bets are off.

...Defending?

I'm asking you how you take it as he responded to only one other person and ignored the rest. How am I defending him with that kind of statement?

But yeah, I'm agreeing with you on that point. Blatantly ignoring someone is..well, more than rude.

Ottofar: What have you to say for yourself? Why do you keep on missing others' queries and for those you did answer, not answer them well?