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[Vector]

I don't give a shit if I won or lost, or the degree--though your early game quite sucked, the late was solid and I had nothing on you but the beginning.  I care that Shinigami_King thought you were good enough to put me and him through that, which means that either his morals and sense of self-preservation are a little loose or you're worth it.

[Lenglon]

Vector, my earlygame has always sucked, as both scum and town. I get my reads by watching people over time, and when almost no time has passed I can't get a read. It's why I feel a ton more comfortable as a replacement than being in the game from the start, and why I've been asking people how RVS works.

[Vector]

All right.  Please explain why you're apologizing here:

"Please, don't be too harsh on me, ok?"

And why you don't stand your ground here, but inform all of us that there's territory you could be sitting on:

...
but I have my vote on and multiple questions out to Ottofar, and Tiruin is going to be modkilled at this rate so there's not much point in pressing her.
...
but how am i activelurking if i'm asking "a bunch of questions"?
...
but hasn't flavor been specifically mentioned as being relevant this game? and something to be paying attention to?
...
but
...
Fine. I can make some extra time for a quick review (the game hasn't been going on all that long so far), and yeah, I need to put some more effort in. Food now, but i'll follow up afterwards and pipe in on the merry-go-round of blame we have running.

[Lenglon]

"H-Hey! You're taking that first quote way out of context! I had just fullclaimed in an effort to at least give Regnault a marked grave and a proper funeral instead of just leaving his corpse out to rot in the woods. I knew some people wouldn't understand why I did it, and would be mad at me for it when I did. I said that because I was scared I'd be attacked for claiming like that!"
Abandoning a character the way I did is effectively killing them. I wanted to show what respect I can for him even if I have to let it happen. I apologized because I knew several of you wouldn't understand my view on this.

as for the second quote? I didn't feel like fighting over it, and there was no harm to be done from going back and doing a re-read.

[Vector]

I apologized because I knew several of you wouldn't understand my view on this.

Really?  No one is making anyone RP, so I'm not sure who or what you're worried about.

as for the second quote? I didn't feel like fighting over it, and there was no harm to be done from going back and doing a re-read.

But why leave the crossed-out remnants of your possible defenses?

[Lenglon]

I apologized because I knew several of you wouldn't understand my view on this.

Really?  No one is making anyone RP, so I'm not sure who or what you're worried about.

Lenglon:

I'm frustrated with my character, because I've become comforatable with his past and mindset, and I know how he would act, and it's just plain not the way I want to be. I've decided to fullclaim my flavor so that I won't be compelled to try to communicate my character's...

Are you fucking kidding me.

I was worried more people than just Dariush would react like that.

as for why I had the crossed out parts, that situation you put me in back there was strongly reminiscent of what got me lynched back in Toon mafia. In Toon mafia I didn't argue with it at all when Leafsnail accused me of active-lurking, and simply said that I'd go back, re-read, and try to improve. That signaled everyone to dogpile me and is what led to me being lynched. I didn't want that to happen again, so I let you know that I could be arguing with you about it to stave off events repeating themselves.

[Vector]

I was worried more people than just Dariush would react like that.

He's not reacting like that because you're unwilling to RP, he's reacting like that because you're blaming your disengagement with scumhunting on your RP problems.

as for why I had the crossed out parts, that situation you put me in back there was strongly reminiscent of what got me lynched back in Toon mafia. In Toon mafia I didn't argue with it at all when Leafsnail accused me of active-lurking, and simply said that I'd go back, re-read, and try to improve. That signaled everyone to dogpile me and is what led to me being lynched. I didn't want that to happen again, so I let you know that I could be arguing with you about it to stave off events repeating themselves.

. . . Look, you need to argue about it because if I'm wrong then I need to know that I'm wrong and why.  If you don't have time to deal with the accusation, then you say that.  But as-is you're looking ludicrously passive-aggressive, which is setting off my sensors--and if you're actually town, then you do have a responsibility to defend yourself and keep yourself alive, it just isn't your top priority.

At that juncture you could have been lynched, true, but you could also have shown yourself to be obvtown and saved everyone a lot of trouble.  As-is you're just going to get yourself lynched slowly.

[Lenglon]

. . . Look, you need to argue about it because if I'm wrong then I need to know that I'm wrong and why.  If you don't have time to deal with the accusation, then you say that.  But as-is you're looking ludicrously passive-aggressive, which is setting off my sensors--and if you're actually town, then you do have a responsibility to defend yourself and keep yourself alive, it just isn't your top priority.

At that juncture you could have been lynched, true, but you could also have shown yourself to be obvtown and saved everyone a lot of trouble.  As-is you're just going to get yourself lynched slowly.

so I should stop scumhunting and focus on self-defense in order to handle accusations of not scumhunting? what are you trying to say here? do you honestly want to go back to when I made that post and go over the arguments that I crossed out? if so, why aren't you addressing them? if not, why are you saying I should argue with you about them?

Vector: how do you define passive-aggressive and what makes passive-aggressiveness a scumtell?

Lenglon shrugs
"Maybe I'm just kinda passive-aggressive by nature? I mean, people are people. Just because I'm not getting in people's faces about stuff doesn't mean that I'm not checking out what they're doing. Does it really matter if I'm polite when I ask someone something instead of yelling and swearing all the time?"

[Vector]

Because it's the fact that you crossed them out and didn't press them that's a problem.

You need to both defend yourself and attack others.  But defending yourself while pretending that you're not defending yourself means that whoever you're arguing with, well, can't really argue with you.  Passive-aggressiveness means that you present arguments so that it looks like whoever's arguing with you is attacking a helpless victim.  There's Lenglon!  She has arguments to present, but she just can't hold up under Vector's nasty assault, the poor flower!  If only Vector weren't so mean.  Then Lenglon could get a word in edgewise.

See, there you are in that very post, making the false equivalence between passive-aggressiveness and politeness and playing it off as just being part of your personality.  Previously, you played off my arguments against you as mere sour grapes because I couldn't stand to lose.

[Jim Groovester]

Votecount:

Dariush	- 0 -
Deathsword	- 1 -	griffinpup
griffinpup	- 1 -	Leafsnail
Leafsnail	- 0 -
Lenglon	- 1 -	Vector
notquitethere	- 4 -	Toaster, Ottofar, Tiruin, Dariush
Okami No Rei	- 1 -	zombie urist
Ottofar	- 1 -	Lenglon
Tiruin	- 0 -
Toaster	- 1 -	notquitethere
ToonyMan	- 0 -
Vector	- 1 -	ToonyMan
zombie urist	- 1 -	Okami No Rei
-
Not Voting	- 1 -	Deathsword
No Lynch	- 0 -
-
Extend	- 0 -
Shorten	- 0 -

The Day will end on Saturday, the 10th of August, 8PM GMT.

4 players required to Extend, 7 to Shorten. 3 Extends left for the Day.

[Lenglon]

Vector: Either respond to the crossed out statements or not. you said the way I presented them in a way that made you unable to respond without looking like a bully? then here: "Please respond to my crossed-out defenses if you have an issue with any of them."

seriously, go ahead. I'm running out of guesses for why you're acting the way you are, but my current one is pent-up frustration. feel free to take whatever shots you want, even if it makes you end up flailing or whatever. I'll take each of them seriously, one at a time, and won't hold the weak ones against you. fair enough?

[zombie urist]

Zombie Urist:  Other than Okami, who is scummy and why?

NQT, excessive focus on flavor and not much scumhunting. I'm also somewhat sceptical about being a female carpenter.
Dariush, his scumhunting has also been weak and he isn't detailing his reasoning very much.

I'd grow somewhat suspicious of them, but the action in and of itself is not a guarantee of scuminess.

What is a guarantee of scuminess?

Griffinpup:

Griffinpup: Why did you point out the exact same thing I pointed out earlier here?

"I wish for a peaceful place, and do not want witch-trials ravaging the town."  It's the only thing "this" could be referring to.

That doesn't make any sense. Are you saying a "peaceful place" is for the good of the people? Are "the witch trials" for the good of the people? Is your wish for the good of the people? Also I find it hard to believe that the viscount is unaware of the famine and drought going on in his town. 

Zombie Urist
[Why is Okami No Rei the scummiest player right now?]

Why don't you read what I wrote earlier? The most crucial point is in these posts.

notquitethere - Rolefishing already?  I'll bite.  I am Colin Fleury, Apprentice Cooper.  So, why exactly do you want this information, Witch?  You need it for your spells and rituals?

There are three separate threads here that you are muddling together.
First:  The idea that everyone should soft-claim name and profession.
I agree with this.  I believe it is a pro-town move, since, as Toaster said, we're likely to have a town flavor cop, and it forces scum to either stand out as dissenters, lie, or give up some of their information.
Second:  NQT claiming, and calling out everyone to claim in his first post.
I find this to be potentially scummy, and he still hasn't given me a satisfactory explanation for why he thinks what he did was pro-town.  I would have preferred holding off on the soft-claim until the majority of the town was behind it, in order to maximize the pressure on scum to go along with it.
Third:  My choice to soft-claim at the same time as I called out NQT.
This was damage control.  The only way a soft-claim has power as a potential weapon against scum is through pressure from a united town.  NQT hurt that potential power by claiming so early.  I threw my own weight behind it in order to restore some of its strength, hopefully start a snowball effect, and to try to curtail the inevitable arguments against soft-claiming, which scum could easily hide behind if they needed to.

What he did in the first post does not match with his explanations. Firstly he said "rolefishing" in the post 1 but something else in post 2. Also his claim that he tried to do damage control by throwing his own weight behind, yet he described it as "rolefishing" as well as hinting that it might be needed for witches which doesn't seem to support his cause.

[zombie urist]

Spoiler: WOT on ONR (click to show/hide)

Rolefishing was the simplest scummy interpretation of his actions (though not necessarily the only one, or even the scummiest one - see my response to Leafsnail below), so it was the one I went with when I started questioning him.  I wanted him to defend himself by offering a pro-town justification for his actions (the same thing I'm looking for from you regarding the accusation of tunneling, by the way, which you've yet to provide), but I would be thoroughly ashamed of myself if I had not taken the opportunity to accuse someone of being a witch for the first time in the game with some dramatic flair.

Why did you go with something simple rather than what you thought he was actually doing?

Arguing semantics is a waste of time.  If you don't understand my choice of words, please ask for clarification.

Its not a semantics argument. I think you chose the word "potentially" because it allows you to be correct no matter what NQT turns out to be. If he is scum, then you were right and what he did was scummy. If he isn't then what he did could "potentially" have been scummy, but it wasn't.

We outnumber them.  Dismissing it would only draw attention to themselves.

"We" is an interesting word here. It looks both like buddying and painting yourself as town. Also you are assuming every townie would agree to claiming. 

ONR's post was pretty scummy and I didn't notice anyone else being scummy. Also I hoped to kick the game out of RVS.

It was originally a pressure vote based on the stuff I pointed out in the post.

Now who's the one backtracking?  Did you vote me because you'd found scum and wanted to end RVS, or did you vote me as an RVS pressure vote based on some minor issues in my second post?

It was both. I found it scummy, so I put a pressure vote and wanted the vote and accompanying post to push the game out of RVS.

If you lived in town all your life, then you must have grown up in town.

I did.  My flavor is ambiguous on that point.  I now have clarification from LNCP.

Unless you grew up in prison or something I don't really see how it can affect your role or be ambiguous.

I still don't think I was tunneling. >_>

You still haven't explained what you do think you were doing.  That should help.

I saw a post which was scummy and I pointed out why it was scummy.

I should take offense to that.  I put a good deal of thought into those questions.

Doesn't look like it.

I don't like the first two questions because they both have an obvious answer.

Of course the answer's obvious.  That's the first big clue that I've ulterior motives to asking the question.

Yes as both town and SK are uninformed, all information should be considered for all actions.  There's really no interesting points suggested by the answer barring extreme situations. Its like asking to show work for 1+1.

Barring extreme situations.  Those are the key words.
So the answer isn't so simple as "Yes, of course."  You know that.
The answer is "Yes, but..."
The answer is "Yes, unless..."
The answer is "Yes, however..."
You like things simple.  Black and white.  You automatically shrug off mere possibilities, focusing on the probable, the likely, and the absolute.
I don't know you.  I don't know griffinpup.  Your answers to that simple, "lazy" question told me how you think about the game, which will allow me to better read your play further down the road.

I don't (and I think most people wouldn't) consider "extreme situations" because by they are by definition extreme. Its why I don't prepare for meteor strikes when I go outside.

I also don't like meta reads as a reason. Meta reads can be easily faked, unless you can provide evidence of games in which you are basing this on.

I do like meta reads.  Meta reads can only be faked if you're aware they exist...

Its ok if you like them, but you missed the most important part. Where games are you using to judge Vector's meta? Also I think you misunderstood what I meant by faked. I mean that I can say "Player X always does blah when he's scum" even if that's not true.

Using questions to get reads IMO is not the point of RVS, but whatever.

Using questions to get reads is the point of RVS.

This is also to Lenglon but I think RVS is just meant to create content to discuss.

[notquitethere]

Everyone
[Think about this carefully. If I'm scum, where's my scum team to make an alternative case? Look at the votes-- they're evenly spread except for on me. I'm willing to bet that this pattern has never been seen on a day 1 scum lynch before. All it takes for evil to prevail is you all doing nothing.

The case against me seems to boil down to excessive roleplaying, focus on 'flavour', indignation at being called 3rd party, some Dariush bullshit about lazy scumhunting, and of course starting off the soft claim.

Let me counter these points.

1. I love roleplaying and engaging with the setting, I do it nearly every game I play. Read the OP: LNCP specifically encouraged embodying a role in this game. Wherever appropriate, like now, I have dropped the RP in favour of responding directly.

2. I can see why people think I focus excessively on setting details over mechanics. But let's put this in perspective: the mod specifically signalled that setting was important, Toaster confirmed that in a previous Witch game he caught the serial killer this way. The most notable thing to date has been the claims. There have been no flips, and this subforum's usual way of playing day 1 almost never finds scum.

3. Toaster seemed to be calling me out as 3rd party for being out of town when he was out of town, so damn right I was indignant. On a reread it seems more to have been a persistent misreading of one another's intentions.

4. The reason I asked people about their votes wasn't to give the appearance of scumhunting, but to try and get people to think about things from a we-might-be-letting-town-be-mislynched-due-to-doing-nothing-with-our-votes perspective.

5. Everyone but Leafsnail has claimed and he isn't voting me, so voting me for starting the claims is hypocrisy par excellence. Ottofar or Tiruin are probably the worst offenders on this point.

Town, it's your job to critically examine the votes against the Day 1 lynch lead. Do it.


Toaster

The answering of the question wasn't the point- it was the fact you pointed fingers elsewhere on the out-of-town issue, and how it got you so riled up. Also, the vote wasn't and has never been a random vote- it was specifically directed at you on the grounds of something you said. It got a scummy reaction, so it stuck.

[I feel we're talking at cross-purposes here. I was only 'riled up' because your reasoning was seemed to me to be so bugnuts insane. You seemed to have been calling me a third-party for being out of town when you yourself were out of town. I realise now that it was my reaction that kept the vote on me. Sometimes I let righteous indignation get in the way of good play. I don't agree with your vote but at least I understand it now. Think back to your previous Witches games and look at my actions, you'll know exactly why I'm not a witch.]

Tiruin
[I don't care if your busy, you've done nothing of value all game. Replace out if you don't have time. Don't just bandwagon then disappear. That's scummy whichever way you swing it.]

Lenglon

Your explanation doesn't match up with what I remember. In the revolution, your last game, and one in which you were scum, you made very minimalistic posts, and generally was very reactive and not very proactive. During that game I called you out on this, and it was a key aspect of why I could identify that you were scum, and a key part of how I identified one of your scumbuddies. Your actions and posting style this game seem strongly like a counter-reaction to what happened there, and I find it odd that your explanation of this could be summed up as "I always act like this as town." As town I would have expected some kind of proper explanation, and quite likely a reference to what happened there. As scum your goal is to make yourself look as townie as possible, and that being the case, an explanation where you call your own actions a towntell benefits you. do you have an explanation for what I'm seeing here?

[A fair question. If I'm wholly honest, once people fingered me as a spy in Revolution I gave up defending myself as there didn't seem any point, especially when in the first Revolution I wasn't able to convince the rebels of my innocence when I genuinely was innocent and knew who the spies were. Also there was RL stuff that was keeping me busy. Ironically, the game I cared least about is the only one I've ever won.You want to know my meta, Lenglon? I always lose. In 13 games I've only won once and that was in spite of the fact that everyone knew I was scum. Draw from that what you will.]

Ottofar
Out of all the awfully reasoned votes on me, yours is one of the worst. You still haven't responded to my earlier rebuttal. Laughing to yourself is not an argument. Make a case already.

Extend

[Vector]

Everyone
[Think about this carefully. If I'm scum, where's my scum team to make an alternative case? Look at the votes-- they're evenly spread except for on me. I'm willing to bet that this pattern has never been seen on a day 1 scum lynch before. All it takes for evil to prevail is you all doing nothing.

This is a bag of WIFOM horseshit.  Can you honestly do nothing better for yourself?