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[palsch]

Sad that the only two PC games she played is Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2 unless she just didn't decide to put them in a pile (since... most people don't keep the box).

Just had a look around and 15ish years of PC gaming has left me with three game boxes of the format shown in the photo. Two of which I wouldn't want to advertise.

[alexandertnt]

Which is why these conversations are weird. People will argue against you on the basis of a percieved attack

Part of the reason is that some of these arguments are often intended as attacks (particulatly the "she isnt a gamer" argument, which has come up quite a few times on the general internet).

You diddnt mean it as an attack (and its not your fault or anything), but a significant ammount of the time it is meant as one by other people (not specifically here).

[Rolan7]

I wonder if she'll talk about Enslaved.  I don't know anything besides what I vaguely remember from previews, but it seemed possibly relevant.

[scriver]

What Nitpicking? I am arguing that she hasn't played all the games because she not only doesn't need to but that it would be an obsessive time sink.

Why people think I am trying to belittle anyone is beyond me.

"I didn't see the relevance in that train of thought"

Nothing really, I had to however defend my statement that I think she didn't play most of her games. Which people argue "No, if she didn't play all her games then she is a FAKER AND TERRIBLE" which my counter to that is "She doesn't need to play all the games, look at Dinosaur planet she has NEVER played it because she couldn't have. Thus my statement of her not playing most of her games has nothing to do with competency"

Which is why these conversations are weird. People will argue against you on the basis of a percieved attack, and thus you can argue back not by saying "No, I am right" but by saying "It doesn't affect her competency"

I am actually quite frustrated that I have to keep making statements until the relevation of: "Ohh my goodness! Neonivek isn't bashing Anita? Well now I actually have to read his statements with a shred of analytical thought instead of just assuming he is saying the worst possible things constantly". Which gets really tiring.

Want to know why I often do arguements where I do nothing but say the same thing over and over again? It isn't because I countering people with the same arguement, it is because I am trying to present the same arguement that no one seems to understand.

If people are constantly misinterpreting you, one could possibly imagine the fault doesn't lie with their ability to understand you as much as it lies with your ability to communicate your ideas.

[Neonivek]

If people are constantly misinterpreting you, one could possibly imagine the fault doesn't lie with their ability to understand you as much as it lies with your ability to communicate your ideas

Not when information outside of what I said (preconceptions) are the reason for major differences.

I do have communication problems, mind you, but I am not talking about times there is a genuin disagreement.

When "I don't think she played most of those games" turns into "I think Anita is a liar and a convict and her video is just a bucket of lies" there is something more then just bad communication on my part.

[Reelya]

Hollywood is actually more sexist than the game industry, and it's a bad example to try to hold the gaming industry to. The people who hold the money in the Hollywood system are convinced that if there is a single scene where two women talk about anything other than a man then that scene shouldn't exist. Fighting against this is an uphill battle for literally everyone who wants to change it. To the point where young screenwriters are indoctrinated to cut these scenes from their scripts because "they will never be greenlit otherwise."

Publishers in the gaming industry aren't there ... yet.

Do you have a source for that (especially the bit in scare quotes)? I always thought it was passive sexism, e.g. writing from a man's perspective since the majority of screenwriters are male, it never occurs to them to put the woman<->woman conversations in, in the first place. And they would probably not know how to write it very well if they did get around to it.

You need a source if you're going to claim that execs look through a script and go "OMG two women talking about something other than a man! cut it at once!"

It's much more likely a by-product of the way scripts and characters are crafted (characters and plot details fitting into specific archetypes and tropes, effectively narrative "short cuts" in lieu of top quality original writing), than some deliberate policy to specifically fail the bechdel test. It would also lead to the odd situation, that we have to supposed that the studios already applied the bechdel test (in reverse), decades before Ms. Bechdel proposed it.

[Reelya]

Appreciation for what is there neither alleviates nor is relevant to the fact that the industry as a whole is sexist.

It's market driven. Boycotting or discouraging females from getting into the hobby (as a purely negative campaign surely does) isn't going to change things for the better. The industry follows the money.

Saying "this one bad, but this one good!" does actually shift the market in favor of the latter. Surely some sympathetic people have now been exposed to the better alternative who wouldn't have heard of it, or considered it otherwise - free advertising. It also doesn't matter if the alternative you're promoting is a little bit sexist - as long as it's less sexist than the ones you're telling people to boycott. Since the companies will follow the dollars, keep this up and the balance will shift. A blanked "games are sexist!!!" will not shift the balance.

[Neonivek]

Appreciation for what is there neither alleviates nor is relevant to the fact that the industry as a whole is sexist.

It's market driven. Boycotting or discouraging females from getting into the hobby (as a purely negative campaign surely does) isn't going to change things for the better. The industry follows the money.

Oddly enough media marketed almost exclusively to women tend to be just as "sexist" as standard media... and by that I mean they are much more "sexist".

It is almost like gender specific marketing tends to rely on steriotypes and idealisations made to appeal to that demographic.

[Neonivek]

Appreciation for what is there neither alleviates nor is relevant to the fact that the industry as a whole is sexist.

It's market driven. Boycotting or discouraging females from getting into the hobby (as a purely negative campaign surely does) isn't going to change things for the better. The industry follows the money.

Oddly enough media marketed almost exclusively to women tend to be just as "sexist" as standard media... and by that I mean they are much more "sexist".

It is almost like gender specific marketing tends to rely on steriotypes and idealisations made to appeal to that demographic.

If I remember correctly the Old Maxis games (Simearth, Simlife, Simcity) were considered unique in the industry in that they actually appealed to men and women evenly.

Edit: Sorry for the double post. I don't know what happened there.

[Reelya]

I'm really talking about the feminist movement highlighting titles that "get it right" from their own perspective. Surely these exist, and that doesn't have to mean "girls games".

[Neonivek]

I'm really talking about the feminist movement highlighting titles that "get it right" from their own perspective. Surely these exist, and that doesn't have to mean "girls games".

The issue is that for the most part
A) There is no one feminism and thus everyone has different wants and needs when it comes to feminism in terms of what makes it "done right" or "Done Wrong"
and
B) People don't know what they want as a whole or at least cannot communicate it well enough.

It is why a critical perspective is important and not just trying to adhere to a feminist dogma. In fact I'd almost say that feminist perspective is almost completely unimportant for this.

The reason why "Girl games" is important is it shows that just because something meant to "do right by women" is created it doesn't mean it is free from the same crud we criticise other media for and that one feminist perspective may not highlight all the issues or may highlight the wrong ones.

When you ask the question: "Why arn't there more active female characters in videogames" the last conclusion should be "because sexism".

When it comes to videogames Men and Women are VERY different in terms of what games they play as a whole, even if male and females both play them in near equal amount (For every 2 females that play videogames, 3 males do). Thus Marketing towards male gamers specifically becomes not on viable but advantageous.

So a question becomes "Why don't more women play these kinds of games?" and before the conclusion is "Because they arn't marketed towards those games" you have to look deeper as well.

While a lot of people look at media and like to see it as some sort of outside influence on popular consciousness... It more often is a mirror reflecting the feelings and attitudes of those watching. When people change the media tends to change with it.

The goal of these is supposed to be about making people question their values and make more informed decisions about what they buy and what they make. Is the Chainmail bikini acceptible (Dang it no it isn't! It never was! Unless she is some sort of weird fetishist... she shouldn't be wearing one)? Should we take the easy way?

[Putnam]

But it is because of sexism--not active, conscious sexism, but the ever-pervasive unconscious, passive kind that permeates society, the kind that people won't recognize as sexism unless it's explicitly pointed out to them.

[Neonivek]

But it is because of sexism--not active, conscious sexism, but the ever-pervasive unconscious, passive kind that permeates society, the kind that people won't recognize as sexism unless it's explicitly pointed out to them.

How much of it is sexism? how significant is that?

The reason the last conclusion is "sexism" is not because there isn't sexism but because there are so many more important things before you get up to it. As well when you go straight to sexism you immediately blanket many things that arn't.

Why are most protagonists in shooters male? Because most players of shooters are male and most developers of it are male.
Why do some shooters have exclusively male casts? because the military, which they are trying to emulate, often do not allow mixed gender platoons.

Neither of these are sexist they are concequences of the demographics and not because of any preconceptions of gender.

As well just because something is sexist it doesn't indicate it is wrong, which is also important.

It is why we had to actually open up the Female Damsel in distress. There is nothing inherantly sexist or wrong about it and there are women just as helpless and most videogames do show the protagonist being respectful to the damsel (for example none of them "Own" or show supperiority towards the damsel). The issue comes from how the Damsel in Distress becomes so used and so ingrained that it becomes harder for other kinds of female characters to be used, when damsel becomes default.

[Vattic]

Finally finished reading the thread.

Neither of these are sexist they are concequences of the demographics and not because of any preconceptions of gender.

Are these demographics not the result of sexism in a lot of cases?

[Loud Whispers]

Neither of these are sexist they are concequences of the demographics and not because of any preconceptions of gender.

Are these demographics not the result of sexism in a lot of cases?

How so? This is question that can't be answered simply with y/n.