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[TolyK]

(Also, I'm sorry my info about your targeting wasn't helpful- if you're sure you didn't action anyone last night then perhaps we have a redirecter?)

Would that be a scum or town redirector, though?

Toly

My argument is this: 1. I'm immune to kills from lovers. 2. The lovers wouldn't have known this. 3. Scum lovers would have a big incentive to kill me before I out them. 4. The results of the night are consistent with me being targeted by scum lovers. There are of course many other possible occurences, but until I have further info, I can't rule out the possibility just described.

I am exactly asking about point 3. WHY do they have a big incentive to kill you? What if they think you don't have reason to out them, because they're not scummy? You're going from the assumption that they know that you know they're scum (double assumption ftw/wtf?), because otherwise either (a) you won't be poking them out (if you don't think they're scum), or (b) they won't expect you poking them out. Also, by you dying the maffer would lose "loyalty points" to the other lover (since why otherwise would scum kill you, if they could get info on the dual-town-pair from you?).
What are your arguments for this?

I see your point. I hadn't considered how a town-scum pair would behave with each other/whether they'd suspect one another if I died in the night. Hmm.

Mistake in speech. I meant, where did you even get the idea?

It was just an IF- I don't know anything about Zrk2 other than he's a belligerent fellow.

Make sense. Just stood out that you make a "maybe" thing in a block of (supposed?) logic.

[Hapah]

PFP

Toaster is town, according to the Truth Magics.

[TolyK]

Well, that's good.
Only 12 more to go.

[notquitethere]

Vector

I'm short for time and haven't had a chance to reread since the beginning of D2, but just to get some of this out of the way before I reread this evening... I feel like all of this rigamarole about your role, the active-lurking, the lack of actual data you put out feels a little bit. . . I don't know, staged? I realize this sounds crazy, but I occasionally wonder if you lovers'd anyone at all. It'd be an interesting ruse.

And beyond that, you hear you've got an affection for Ford, so... you kill Ford. Why? That doesn't seem logical.

I thought it was just flavour text. I'd forgotten all about it by the time the lynch rolled round and even if I had have remembered and thought it significant, there was still no guarantee that Ford was town. Reread your own role PM, maybe you'll find something useful.

You talk about not wanting to speculate before a scum flip, well I feel that way on Day 1- before a flip there's little to go on. I've laid traps with my claims and it's easier to see who's lining up as scum in light of them. It's unorthodox, but it is scum hunting. Now I can't vote, my power to press my claims is limited but I'm still following up on people.

My claims have been truthful except where omiting elements have helped me assess scuminess of others. I'd have to be pretty insane to be making this stuff up.

What do you think of Ranger's inspect? Have you even read it? It's pretty much the most important thing that's happened this day. If I'm scum then Ranger must be scum, right? Does Ranger's activities look scummy to you?

And if I'm scum then Toaster must be scum too: I was about to be lynched and it was only with his co-operation that we got Ford instead. Does a NQT-Ranger-Toaster scum team even make sense?

Obviously, if you're scum or third-party then you won't really care, but if you're town like I think you probably are then you owe it to town to try your damnedest not to mislynch people.

NotQuiteThere, it's hella specious to claim that someone who asks for role data after you've promised is role-fishing. That's entrapment.

I don't mind giving more info where it's reasonable and you can see from my post record that that's exactly what I have been doing after every claim. There's a big difference though between clarifying and saying absolutely everything about my role regardless of whether it's in town's interests to make that full claim. Is that understandable?

Toaster

Wait, what? Vector saying she didn't target anyone is verification of your claim?

I should have been more specific: claims that I have made have been independently verified, though not all these claims have yet. I've given more information than anyone else in this game so this should be no surprise. Specifically, my claim not to be able to vote and my claim about my lover's ability have been verified (by the mod and Ranger) and my claim to being immune to lover's kills is at the very least plausible given the lack of a NK, but it's understandable if you want to hold off on believing that until we all know more.

Did you ever watch the original Wicker Man?

Spoiler: actual spoiler (click to show/hide)

At the end, while the cult are burning Sergeant Howie so they can bring a bountiful harvest, the Sergeant says to the leader of the cult that when the harvest fails again there'll only be one person suitable to burn left: the cult leader himself.

I feel a bit like Sergeant Howie. I gave you the benefit of the doubt and helped you burn Ford. He turned out innocent and our crop is still failing. When you mislynch me then where will you be?

Griff

A thought on how to tell if we have a cult without a kill ability, does your lover's ability only protect you from being killed, or does it give you ability immunity as well?

Only kills I'm afraid: the Lovers can use non-kill abilities on me all they like. A cult is an interesting idea but what evidence do we actually have on this?

Ranger

I'm also half expecting something else from NQT

I might say some more about another of my abilities tomorrow if I think it's in town's interests, but I'm not sure that I'll survive the day at this rate (and it's not as if I could tie the vote at the last moment).

ZU

I'm really doubtful of NQT's claim at this point. Griffon's paranoia on cultists is kinda strange, but I guess NQT could be a cult leader. Love cult? Dunno lol.

Specifically, which claims do you doubt? What possible incentive would I have to lie about this stuff?

TolyK

Would that be a scum or town redirector, though?

Could conceivable be either: all alignments have an incentive to misdirect enemies. If scum redirector, then both Zrk2 and Vector would not be scum.

Hapah

Toaster is town, according to the Truth Magics.

Ooh. This either means that either both you and Toaster are town or you're both scum and you're lying. He's not under any particular danger right now, so I can't see why you'd do that, so my instinct is to think you're both town (notwithstanding the small possibility Toaster has a Godfather type role).


I think I'll have enough info to give proper reads by the end of the day.

[Vector]

What do you think of Ranger's inspect? Have you even read it? It's pretty much the most important thing that's happened this day. If I'm scum then Ranger must be scum, right? Does Ranger's activities look scummy to you?

And if I'm scum then Toaster must be scum too: I was about to be lynched and it was only with his co-operation that we got Ford instead. Does a NQT-Ranger-Toaster scum team even make sense?

Obviously, if you're scum or third-party then you won't really care, but if you're town like I think you probably are then you owe it to town to try your damnedest not to mislynch people.

I skimmed through Ranger's inspect and will take a fuller look at it in a while.

Right now, though, you're calling me to build a scumteam, even though I told you that I know from experience that that's a bad idea, and you've tried to explain how barely playing D1 is fine on the same reasons.  So either it's fine to barely-play D1 and it's fine to hold back from looking for teams, or it's not fine to barely-play D1 and it's not fine to hold back from looking for teams.  By your reasoning, these situations are mutually exclusive.

Pick one.  You can't have it both ways.

And now, you're saying that you must be town because a confirmed townie helped you get off from being lynched.  Why?  That doesn't make sense!

You're also saying that RangerCado's inspection on you means he must be town?  Why?  That... doesn't make much sense, either.

[TolyK]

Shaky logic syndrome: sounds right when you write it, not when you read it.
That's no excuse, though.

[notquitethere]

Vector

I skimmed through Ranger's inspect and will take a fuller look at it in a while.

Please do: he confirms my lover's ability.

Right now, though, you're calling me to build a scumteam, even though I told you that I know from experience that that's a bad idea, and you've tried to explain how barely playing D1 is fine on the same reasons.  So either it's fine to barely-play D1 and it's fine to hold back from looking for teams, or it's not fine to barely-play D1 and it's not fine to hold back from looking for teams.  By your reasoning, these situations are mutually exclusive.

Pick one.  You can't have it both ways.

No- this is an obfuscation of what I was saying. Despite being very busy Day 1 (which I explained at the time), I took meaningful actions that helped me better identify how scummy people were. Creating a scum team without a flip isn't helpful- I agree; but you seem determined to lynch me and so if you're town then I've essentially flipped scum in your mind, so why shouldn't you be forced to think more clearly over whether I could conveivably be on a scum team?

And now, you're saying that you must be town because a confirmed townie helped you get off from being lynched.  Why?  That doesn't make sense!

I actually wrote my response to you before Hapah's reveal about Toaster-- I should have gone back and looked over what I'd written. (It sometimes takes me a while to write up long response-posts, during which time new posts are made which I continue to respond to.) Are you saying that Toaster is confirmed town now? Why are you taking Hapah's claim more seriously than Ranger's functionally identical claim?

You're also saying that RangerCado's inspection on you means he must be town?  Why?  That... doesn't make much sense, either.

No, I'm saying either we're both town or we're both scum (or he's some kind of weird 3rd party that has an incentive to keep me alive). Just like Hapah's claim on Toaster.

[Vector]

. . . No, sorry, you're right.  Toaster hasn't actually been confirmed yet.

But on the other hand, confirming an ability is not the same thing as confirming an alignment, and you've got to be nuts if you think that someone confirming one of your abilities/trying to keep you alive a little bit longer means that they're town.

[Toaster]

Toaster grabs a slice of pizza when Web isn't looking.


Sheep:  I get that you think Tiruin is scum, but you're tunneling her excessively.  Who else is scummy, and why?


NQT:

Toaster

Wait, what? Vector saying she didn't target anyone is verification of your claim?

I should have been more specific: claims that I have made have been independently verified, though not all these claims have yet. I've given more information than anyone else in this game so this should be no surprise. Specifically, my claim not to be able to vote and my claim about my lover's ability have been verified (by the mod and Ranger) and my claim to being immune to lover's kills is at the very least plausible given the lack of a NK, but it's understandable if you want to hold off on believing that until we all know more.

Hmpf.  I think I'm wasting my time with you, but I want to see a couple things first.

You're also saying that RangerCado's inspection on you means he must be town?  Why?  That... doesn't make much sense, either.

No, I'm saying either we're both town or we're both scum (or he's some kind of weird 3rd party that has an incentive to keep me alive). Just like Hapah's claim on Toaster.

Also, even when you and I are town, that doesn't mean Ranger and Hapah are town.   

More Sheep

Fine. Last night I used an ability that made me immune to all night actions.

A leaving town kind of action that prevented you from using other powers?

Can anyone confirm this? Does anyone want to claim targetting a power against Sheep in the night?

For someone who calls me out for rolefishing, you're awfully eager to do the same.


Ranger:  Please confirm:  You saw NQT's alignment, the list of the names of his abilities, and the full details of one of them?  Can you tell us the names of his abilities, and paraphrase the details of his loverchat ability?

Or better yet, post the initials of his ability names, then NQT posts the full names, then you confirm that what he said matches the names?  It'd be a bit of a double-check.

[TolyK]

NQT, you have two very good reasons to earn my trust (though you might not know it). Please explain everything that you did, in order, from the first day, and the reasoning behind it. About 1-2 sentences each. And in between everything that you know that happened.

[notquitethere]

Vector

You've got to be nuts if you think that someone confirming one of your abilities/trying to keep you alive a little bit longer means that they're town.

Well sure, a third party might have an incentive. Don't see scum wanting to stick their necks out like that. Except... worst case Ranger is hoping I'm mislynched and then he can say I told you so and look more town. But... it seems way too implausible a gambit. Also, why would scum be given a role inspect? I guess it's possible, but it strikes me as unlikely. Unlike Hapah's claim, Ranger has provided secret information that only Wuba and I would know: the name of my ability. This makes me trust him more. Obviously, you don't know what my role PM says so I can understand your reticence to believe this point.

Toaster

Also, even when you and I are town, that doesn't mean Ranger and Hapah are town.   

I'm inclined to trust Ranger a bit more, but sure- there's no accounting for crazy gambits, third parties or whatever

TolyK

NQT, you have two very good reasons to earn my trust (though you might not know it). Please explain everything that you did, in order, from the first day, and the reasoning behind it. About 1-2 sentences each. And in between everything that you know that happened.

Day 1, I receive my role ability. I know that I have a one shot that allows me to give a private chat to any two players, but it inflicts lovers. I also see that the lovers won't be able to NK me. I decide to try to entrap scum by using it on myself. Wuba informs me that I can't self target, so I decide to try to use it to trap scum in a different way: I tell everyone I can give a private chat and gauge their responses. Some people are very dismissive, others are more enthused. I decide to give it to two players that gave very town responses, in order to create a mason chat.

I decide to publicise the fact that I lied about the lovers claim, to explain the trap and try to be as above board with my necessary duplicity as possible: I know that town should know why in case someone mysteriously dies a phase after someone else dying.

I know that I might be wrong about my picks, so I decide to gauge whether either of them try to kill me- either with a failed NK action, or targeting me during the day. Day 2 comes around and both these things happen.

Still, I'm not certain enough to out the lovers as containing scum: the failed NK could be explained in other ways (a mistarget on Sheep, for instance) and the lover's lynch vote might just be distancing, with them planning to remove it before it leads to my lynch. So I wait on that. 

Begining of Day 2, Wuba tells me that I now cannot vote because Ford is dead. I'm annoyed with myself and I decide to let people know about the dangers of the flavour text.

Meanwhile, I have learned in the night that if Vector had a night action, Zrk2 was the target. As Zrk2 seems fine, this makes me trust her slightly more than I did and I decide to share the info as well.

Day 2 brings Ranger's claim. At first I think he might be scum trying to keep me around: a town member who can't vote might rank lower in their to-lynch list. I ask him the name of the ability he chose and he gets the name right, confirming that he genuinely used the ability.

Hapah claims Toaster is town, which is interesting and I don't know what to think- at first I'm inclined to believe him as I'd got a kind of mistaken-town vibe from Toaster, but then I wondered if Hapah was scum and was lying to boost Toaster's trustworthiness to reinforce my mislynch (but then, obviously not everything has to be about me). I just don't have enough info right now to judge the truth or motives of the claim

Now it's about a day until the deadline and I'm drawn in the lynch vote, with no way of breaking the tie myself. I try to get the people on my lynch to see reason, knowing that at least some of them may be town.

And I think that's about it- did I miss anything important?

[RangerCado]

Toaster: Since NQT's up for this, i'll do it. (even if this seems like rolefishing to me)

NQT's Lovers ability: called Cupid's Arrows, this ability connects 2 people together (target A and target B) at anytime the user chooses (day or night). If one dies, the other shares the fate shortly after. (the end of the next phase) This ability also gives the two a private chat to discuss amongst themselves. Their alignments are not revealed to eachother, nor are they told who used the ability on them. (though NQT just said it out loud so that part is kinda null and void)

He has 2 other abilities With the first having the initials: L F K   and the second having the initials:  H  B.
Those are the initials of the names i was given so NQT may confirm them or deny them at this time.

Hapah: If you've confirmed toaster as town, whys your vote still on him? and why should we believe your claim of his towniness any more than people believe mine of NQT's?

UNVOTE

ZU: I see no scumminess in Tiruin's posts but yours have slowly creepped into scumminess for me. You've more or less just tunneled her (mafia tunnel not DF tunnel) for the past few pages and had evidence that i don't see the scumminess in for all of your points. My vote goes to you until i see someone else scummier. And if someone thinks i'm just tying the vote against NQT or buddying him or Tiruin, I have posted several times previously that i didn't agree with his points and that he seemed to be getting scummier.

[Griffionday]

Real post up in a bit, but for now:

People Claiming Ability Names
Don't give out full names.  We already know at least on ability is based on that knowledge, there may well be more. 

[Griffionday]

Sorry for the brevity.  School's being a pain.

ZU:

That's 6 questions over 5 sequential posts by my count.
...
1. We've been over this, you haven't been asking questions.

Going to bed.

To clarify, I meant that you are posting one question per post or that you only have one question each time you post (singular). Although apparently I didn't count questions in posts, so you're at 8/5.  Sorry about the argument based on wording. 

My general point though is that we can't follow your logic or what precisely you're finding suspicious.  If you die and flip town we permanently lose all of your reads and you no longer have an impact on the game; making your end game strategy based on you being alive there.  Likewise we can't call bullshit if you start ignoring previous reads that were not responded to. 

The problem is that this is only useful to a scum game.  Like the one that you seem to be playing.

Ranger:
Could you clarify how your inspect allows you to get a town read in addition to a role-read?

So the ability doesn't protect NQT?

NQT:
That means that someone does have a kill ability.  Therefor probably normal game and I'm just being paranoid.  Or Web is trolling you.  One of the two.

Your night ability only gave you a read in terms of maybe?  Why was this omitted from your original claim?

You do realize you're half outing the person by telling everyone that they are voting for you right?

TolyK

NQT, you have two very good reasons to earn my trust (though you might not know it). Please explain everything that you did, in order, from the first day, and the reasoning behind it. About 1-2 sentences each. And in between everything that you know that happened.

Are you soft-claiming a vig + protect role?  Why are you doing this?

[notquitethere]

Ranger

He has 2 other abilities With the first having the initials: L F K and the second having the initials: H B.
Those are the initials of the names i was given so NQT may confirm them or deny them at this time. 

I'm going to follow Hapah's advice and avoid saying the exact name of the role- I think you were given slightly obfuscated names for this very reason. You've detailed the Lover's one shot exactly and the name was right enough.

Griff

That means that someone does have a kill ability. Therefor probably normal game and I'm just being paranoid. Or Web is trolling you. One of the two.

Or, as the case actually is, an aspect of one of my other powers makes me immune to kills from my lover's picks. The affection I spread works both ways

Your night ability only gave you a read in terms of maybe? Why was this omitted from your original claim?

I assumed at the time that Vector had performed a night action, but it occured to me afterwards that I'd have got the same result merely if she'd been redirected to Zrk2 and yet took no action. (Also, I never claimed it was my own ability that gave this info- but I guess it doesn't matter either way).