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[Okami No Rei]

Tiruin

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

6. Okami No Rei - null leaning scum; his intentions seem valid in reasoning, but how he posts them give ample space for thought. That one post wherein he voted for Zrk seems suspicious in the way that he states "if townflip, question Leaf" when he could be doing it currently.

I didn't want to question him right then.  The manner in which he handcrafted that fine bandwagon was, to me, intriguing enough that I decided to throw my vote on board and see where he took it.

Second, why is B a compelling enough argument that you voted her when she said "for now"?

I'd just popped into the game.  I looked at the last few posts, picked something that struck me as scummy, and rolled with it.  Then I got down to actually reading the rest of the thread.

And here, what is the reasoning behind laconic posts - is it in the intention of the poster, or how others view it?

I'm afraid I don't understand the post-hyphen half of your question.  Could you rephrase that?
As for the first half, there's not much in the way of reasoning.  I was simply observing that his that his posts are laconic, which is a staple of Org's meta.  I want him self-conscious of it so that he'll start talking more.

How is this an excellent summary of the generalized playerbase?

He's quickly and concisely illustrated the B12 bandwagon meta and the primary problems associated with it.

People can tout the term of bandwagon on any person being voted by the majority for various reasons,

That is the main problem he's addressing.

and the only focus you give is on the weakest reason ever?

I'm not following you here, either.  What focus?  What weakest reason?

The "You can never join a wagon without being scum" is fallible. Insomuch as saying that you agree point blank without saying anything else is fallible. People have different tactics - scum want to appear town by poking at what is suspicious for them, and usually this works if the suspects have major quirks in their reasoning. Quirks enough, that they seem scum.

What are you asking me here?

Zrk2, for me, has a distinct playstyle which is more confusing than playing, and judging by his posts (and mostly other posts in other boards), its how he plays.

You're the one being confusing right now.

You vote Zrk because...

If you honestly feel I am scum then vote for me, fine.

Okay.  Zrk2

He hasn't been particularly productive, Leaf, so the points you cited do have merit.  If he ends up flipping town, I hope you don't mind if I push you hard on the morrow.

That?

Explain how LS' post convinced you, and if that's the only determining factor which made you vote.

Leafsnail's post showed me where to look.  I drew my own conclusions on agreeing with him, and it's certainly not the determining factor in making me vote, which I explain below.

Who else do you suspect, and why?

Leafsnail - Blatantly inviting everyone on board the Zrk2 bandwagon.
Vector - Because not suspecting her is folly.
Imperial Guardsmen - Because I can't tell if he's newb-telling or scum-telling.

Also, here, you state the reasons behind how scummy you find Zrk, then vote him on what I quoted above.

There's a difference between a directly scummy tell and a general, behavior based read.  I voted on both of them.  I don't see why you expected me to restate that he was making excuses for not pressuring multiple targets and citing Vector's advice as justification whenever I voted him.

Aiming for the easylynch there?

No.  This is a hammerless game, and I had plenty of time between then and end-of-day to change my vote.

How is Ford giving his opinion scummy, or at least a candidate for a scumbuddy?

Ford was defending him by citing his meta, same as you are.  You're a scumbuddy candidate just as much as Ford is, based on that reasoning.

While, obviously the reasoning is damned if Zrk pops out scum, I'm under the impression that you're voting him just to see him lynched - why?

I'm not voting him to see him lynched.  See my explanation below.

Cheers for curiosity.

Curiosity?  That was a full on interrogation.

Spoilered for length.


Vector

A. Not this time.

No?  Where's the fun in that?

B. The second vote on a player is not exactly definitive.  This vote was the right one.

Having now read the rest of the thread, I believe you.

This is not only soft ("I hope you don't mind?"  Really?) but reeks of lynch-chaining.  I'm watching you.

Well, if he's going to be taking well-established meta and throwing it out the window (in defense of you, no less), I see no reason not to do the same.


Hapah

And why would this be Leaf's fault if Zrk flips town?

Because Leaf started it.


Leafsnail

This is gambler's fallacy.  Well I guess reverse gambler's fallacy.  Either way someone's alignments in past games doesn't give any information about their alignment in the current game.

I'm not allowed to use fallacious reasoning on what is essentially an RVS vote while I get my bearings?
Really now.  I thought it was pretty obvious that I was voting Vector just to put my vote somewhere while I was reading the thread.


That's it for questions.  To be continued in next post.

[Leafsnail]

-He didn't do a good job of scumhunting during RVS (and he's hardly alone in that regard).

and that's it. Isn't it?

No.

He has made absolutely no attempt to scumhunt for the entire game.  It's not mere incompetence and it's not an RVS only thing.  While plenty of other players were contributing to the white noise most others had at least made attempts to vote for mafia members (if you spot anyone else who is in the same boat as Zrk2 then please point them out so they can be lynched too).

[Toaster]

Vote Count:

The Soldier:
notquitethere: Hapah
Vector:
Captain Ford: Zombie Urist
Hapah:
Okami No Rei:
Deathsword:
Zrk2: Leafsnail, Vector, The Soldier, Okami No Rei
Leafsnail: Tiruin
Imperial Guardsman: notquitethere
Tiruin:
alamoes:
Zombie Urist: alamoes, Imperial Guardsman, Captain Ford, Zrk2

Not Voting: Deathsword

Day 1 will last until Thursday, 3/28 at 11 PM EST, about 2 1/4 hours from this post.

There is one vote to extend.  Four total votes needed to extend the day.

Spoiler: NQT (click to show/hide)

NQT:

Well for one, I find Imp's lack of a reply suspicious. Merely asking questions is sometimes enough to get started with.

But Deathsword didn't answer either, did he? Did I miss it, or do you not give a damn about the replies?

I'd find a lot things potentially suspicious, including, for instance, any reply which either exaggerated or understated the importance of some game element.

According to who? It feels like you are making this up as you go along.

From this point forward, votes in spoilers do not count.  Make them where I can see them easily.

[Okami No Rei]

Now, I've got a bit of explaining to do, and I hope this answers many of your questions.

The frankness with which Leaf is pursuing the lynch on Zrk2 is, I admit, a refreshing change from how things usually work around here.  I wanted to see where he was going with it, and also how serious he was about the specific bits of meta he didn't like.¹  I read through the thread in order to form my own impressions on Zrk2 (see below), but I was more interested in investigating Leafsnail.  I felt that I wouldn't get the answers I wanted by asking him directly, so I called his bluff², if bluff it was.

I hopped on the bandwagon in a deliberately scummy manner (which, strangely, seems to have only set off alarm-bells from Tiruin, and has received only token attention from others), because I wanted to see Leaf's reaction.  No, I don't know what I was expecting to see.  If I knew, I wouldn't have attempted it in the first place.

As of this post, I'm convinced that he's not bluffing, and he seems to be so preoccupied with Zrk2 that he hasn't even noticed my gambit.

Anyway, I'm happy to leave my vote on Zrk2 for now, primarily due to these two posts:

However, before we jump down the throats of the newbies it may be a good idea to consider their actions in light of the fact that they are new, and not lynch them for "scumtells" that are simply newby mistakes. While I generally am not opposed to lynching the least productive person D1, because there is nothing else to really go on, in this case I think it may be uncalled for.

I thought we had the beginnings of a bandwagon on our hands, and did what I could to avert it.

Zrk2 - It seems to me you're not only not contributing to the scumhunting, as Leaf claims, but actively opposing it anytime it touches on our newer members.

[The Soldier]

So, there are less than 2 hours left in the day, the vote's tied, and I just now got home to a computer. Extend, could use some time. Will get a post in here after KotM.

[Okami No Rei]

Extend as well.  Can't have a tie vote.

[Hapah]

Hapah

And why would this be Leaf's fault if Zrk flips town?

Because Leaf started it.

...and? You obviously have no problem with the argument, if you are following along.

No.

He has made absolutely no attempt to scumhunt for the entire game.  It's not mere incompetence and it's not an RVS only thing.  While plenty of other players were contributing to the white noise most others had at least made attempts to vote for mafia members (if you spot anyone else who is in the same boat as Zrk2 then please point them out so they can be lynched too).

Zombie Urist's content is literally thirteen words over two days. He could very well just be busy, and I don't think he's a great lynch either, but damn. NQT looks like scum to me, Okami's promise to try to lynch you if Zrk2 flips town for presenting a case that he's agreeing with is scummy and downright ridiculous, and yet we're looking at this.

Extend. Probably won't be back before day end.

PPE Okami and TheSolder: No time now, will read later.

[Toaster]

Day has been Extended.  Day 1 will last until Friday, 3/29 at 11 PM EST.

[Leafsnail]

I think active lurking tends to be worse than regular lurking (which can be as you say a result of business) but I do take your point.  I'll give NQT a good look tomorrow.

[Zrk2]

The night reached an early conclusion so I am returned to you.

Even Vector mentioned that earlier.

Appeal to authority.  Also, making excuses.

The appeal to authority part is debatable, but I can't seem to find anything about Vector pressuring multiple people at all. Zrk2: Where'd you pull that from?

She said it is more productive to focus one's efforts on a single, or couple, people, because one simply cannot keep up the pressure on everyone in a game.

Zrk2 - It seems to me you're not only not contributing to the scumhunting, as Leaf claims, but actively opposing it anytime it touches on our newer members.

False. I said we should remember that they are noobs, and account for it, not necessarily go soft on them. For instance regard my case presented for Alamoes.

[Tiruin]

PFP

Zrk. Hope you've had a good day.

The night reached an early conclusion so I am returned to you.

Even Vector mentioned that earlier.

Appeal to authority.  Also, making excuses.

The appeal to authority part is debatable, but I can't seem to find anything about Vector pressuring multiple people at all. Zrk2: Where'd you pull that from?

She said it is more productive to focus one's efforts on a single, or couple, people, because one simply cannot keep up the pressure on everyone in a game.

Zrk2 - It seems to me you're not only not contributing to the scumhunting, as Leaf claims, but actively opposing it anytime it touches on our newer members.

False. I said we should remember that they are noobs, and account for it, not necessarily go soft on them. For instance regard my case presented for Alamoes.

So then you ignore my everything I've asked you, and specify only one trivial point in which you don't have any quotes or other conclusive evidence to prove; only an opinion - which, while true in the sense that newbies are much more vulnerable to being used as scumpulls (taken from the idea of scum pulling on an easier way out by using these people as a rope) - fails to persuade due to the fact that you seem to be deflecting the whole idea of "you scumhunting" onto that case.

So tell me. Reads on everyone. Also, why aren't you addressing most of the questions pointed towards you? You say that you're town - sure. Then you lay a vote on ZU...because of percentages. Explain how and why you came up with that, how that would help town.

Lastly (keep with me, sir), you do know that judging by your attitude, its partly a liability due to the idea that you've not done much in the terms of conventional scumhunting, right? I'm not all to familiar with how you do it, but I'm quite confused on why or how your brevity in posting helps at all. You've focused on only one person during the day during your first posts, what can you say about him in particular?

And to end, how productive do you think you've been in trying to help the town, given your words on being town?

Okami

Leafsnail - Blatantly inviting everyone on board the Zrk2 bandwagon.
Vector - Because not suspecting her is folly.
Imperial Guardsmen - Because I can't tell if he's newb-telling or scum-telling.

These are the only people you suspect...and then you say your vote basis is on LS. That you played a scum-looking gambit, and that you really seem defensive that you're poking at all my points...

Dude, you do know that by how you state LS as your suspect, your other posts in regard to voting Zrk seem to lose validity in the sense that...you're agreeing with a suspect and choosing the better way out, right? That's how I see it.

And that one part on Vector? Smells like you just adding it in without a tangible reason. Why is not suspecting her, folly? No wait: Why'd you even add that in?

On that thing on IG: Then where's your questions for him? Leaving an opinion blank in your thoughts is not a good thing, no matter how it goes.

While I do appreciate your honesty, I-

Now, I've got a bit of explaining to do, and I hope this answers many of your questions.

The frankness with which Leaf is pursuing the lynch on Zrk2 is, I admit, a refreshing change from how things usually work around here.  I wanted to see where he was going with it, and also how serious he was about the specific bits of meta he didn't like.¹  I read through the thread in order to form my own impressions on Zrk2 (see below), but I was more interested in investigating Leafsnail.  I felt that I wouldn't get the answers I wanted by asking him directly, so I called his bluff², if bluff it was.

I hopped on the bandwagon in a deliberately scummy manner (which, strangely, seems to have only set off alarm-bells from Tiruin, and has received only token attention from others), because I wanted to see Leaf's reaction.  No, I don't know what I was expecting to see.  If I knew, I wouldn't have attempted it in the first place.

As of this post, I'm convinced that he's not bluffing, and he seems to be so preoccupied with Zrk2 that he hasn't even noticed my gambit.

Anyway, I'm happy to leave my vote on Zrk2 for now, primarily due to these two posts:

However, before we jump down the throats of the newbies it may be a good idea to consider their actions in light of the fact that they are new, and not lynch them for "scumtells" that are simply newby mistakes. While I generally am not opposed to lynching the least productive person D1, because there is nothing else to really go on, in this case I think it may be uncalled for.

I thought we had the beginnings of a bandwagon on our hands, and did what I could to avert it.

Zrk2 - It seems to me you're not only not contributing to the scumhunting, as Leaf claims, but actively opposing it anytime it touches on our newer members.

Wat.

Deliberately scummy manner? Your post there can be attributed to you just reading up and posting on what you saw during the skim. That's how I saw it then, but I decided to poke you on it.

Because now that you state it, it is very strange for me to see you say "where Leafsnail" is going without even asking him anything ("I do reaction posts without addressing it", much?). And really seem to be covering something not even regarded as much of a slip (well, honesty aside), because...you wanted to see a specific person's reaction?

Really looks like you're trying to cover up something which didn't even exist, only as a reaction of present fear in your mind.

Spoiler: Just to ask (click to show/hide)

The frankness with which Leaf is pursuing the lynch on Zrk2 is, I admit, a refreshing change from how things usually work around here.

>This seems more like a meta idea. What's up?

[Zrk2]

Zrk. Hope you've had a good day.

It was okay, all things considered.

The night reached an early conclusion so I am returned to you.

Even Vector mentioned that earlier.

Appeal to authority.  Also, making excuses.

The appeal to authority part is debatable, but I can't seem to find anything about Vector pressuring multiple people at all. Zrk2: Where'd you pull that from?

She said it is more productive to focus one's efforts on a single, or couple, people, because one simply cannot keep up the pressure on everyone in a game.

Zrk2 - It seems to me you're not only not contributing to the scumhunting, as Leaf claims, but actively opposing it anytime it touches on our newer members.

False. I said we should remember that they are noobs, and account for it, not necessarily go soft on them. For instance regard my case presented for Alamoes.

So then you ignore my everything I've asked you, and specify only one trivial point in which you don't have any quotes or other conclusive evidence to prove; only an opinion - which, while true in the sense that newbies are much more vulnerable to being used as scumpulls (taken from the idea of scum pulling on an easier way out by using these people as a rope) - fails to persuade due to the fact that you seem to be deflecting the whole idea of "you scumhunting" onto that case.

So tell me. Reads on everyone. Also, why aren't you addressing most of the questions pointed towards you? You say that you're town - sure. Then you lay a vote on ZU...because of percentages. Explain how and why you came up with that, how that would help town.

I already posted my reads. See above. As far as percentages I was referring to the fact that I know I am town, whereas I do not know that about Zombie Urist. Therefore if I must choose between lynching him or myself I will choose him every time. Percentages.

Lastly (keep with me, sir), you do know that judging by your attitude, its partly a liability due to the idea that you've not done much in the terms of conventional scumhunting, right? I'm not all to familiar with how you do it, but I'm quite confused on why or how your brevity in posting helps at all. You've focused on only one person during the day during your first posts, what can you say about him in particular?

And to end, how productive do you think you've been in trying to help the town, given your words on being town?

I have found someone who I believe to be scum, however circumstances have forced me away from voting for them, which is unfortunate. As far as productivity goes I haven't been particularly useful, but then neither have I been particularly useless.

[Tiruin]

Lastly (keep with me, sir), you do know that judging by your attitude, its partly a liability due to the idea that you've not done much in the terms of conventional scumhunting, right? I'm not all to familiar with how you do it, but I'm quite confused on why or how your brevity in posting helps at all. You've focused on only one person during the day during your first posts, what can you say about him in particular?

And to end, how productive do you think you've been in trying to help the town, given your words on being town?

I have found someone who I believe to be scum, however circumstances have forced me away from voting for them, which is unfortunate. As far as productivity goes I haven't been particularly useful, but then neither have I been particularly useless.

So you see it as a duel between you and ZU. Mhmm.

Then you say here...a very contradicting idea which I bolded. Why aren't you even speaking about that scumbuddy, Zrk2? Why aren't you voting for who you suspect, instead of a losing case of survival?

Detail how you have been "particularly" useful or useless, because its really annoying making sense of  how many suppositions and nebulous generalities you're putting up. I mean, you don't even poke at LS at all, despite what you said "in your reads" or of those who you do suspect.

Your argument of "I know I'm...ZU is..." doesn't persuade. WHile it does state what your opinion is, what is there to back it up? Doesn't even detail any effort in there.

Meaning: You do know you're going to die, and you give nothing else but a nigh-blank argument which leads...onto nothing, really. Suppose you do flip town, what will the rest of us gain from your info? Particularly useful doesn't seem like particularly useful to town, here. Or to your team, whatever it is (yeah I'm putting in a third party idea for the benefit of the doubt).

Your reads - I'm guessing they didn't change, left out ZU/freshman. What the h-...Look. Before that, you weren't poking at ZU. After that, you only chose to poke at ZU for the main reason that percentages will keep you alive.

What will that gain if you live, seemingly nothing as you don't seem eager to give any other information but that at the current reason. Tbh, I'm really torn given your situation, but you're withholding information after every darn time I asked you of it. No "Where was your question" or "What were you talking about?" but declarative statements. One-ended ones :/

Speak now, or forever be condemned.

[The Soldier]

I'm very glad we got the extend, turns out I had much less time to be at home than I thought. But hey, now I can make a good post instead of a rushed one, and start giving this game the attention it deserves.

Spoiler: Reads (click to show/hide)

The Soldier: Town that really needs to stop playing badly. Should post more and not procrastinate.

notquitethere: Relatively few posts, but asks questions and follows up on them. I'm notquitesure, but I'm leaning town for now.

Captain Ford: Has been pressing some people, mostly freshmanisaZombie coolUristman, but it just feels...fluffy, for a reason I can't describe. It's been a while since he's posted, too. I have a bad feeling about him, but have nothing solid yet. Potential scum.

Hapah: Currently pressing several people hard, especially NQT. Most likely town.

Okami: Replaced UI, who seemed clean enough. Also agrees with Leafsnail's case, but joined the wagon in a "deliberately scummy" way to test Leafsnail. It's odd that he agrees with Leaf, but plans to attack him if Zrk2 flips town. Null, with a small lean toward scum.

Vector: Attacks people's reasoning and arguments of her own volition. Even after accepting Leafsnail's case on Zrk2, she continues to press attacks on others. Her reputation for being excellent scum means I'll always have doubt in my mind, but going strictly off what's actually happened, she seems highly town.

Deathsword: Internet is apparently on the fritz, has few posts because of it. Questioning him will be difficult until his internet access goes back to normal; null read so far.

Zrk2: Little real content. Even after becoming the main lynch target, has mostly been answering questions. Probably scum, and the best choice for the D1 lynch.

Leafsnail: Had little activity at the start, has now picked up the pace. Leading the lynch on Zrk2; his points make sense, and he seems town for it.
 
IG: Newbie, has had computer issues preventing them from posting. Needs more investigation.

Tiruin: Counters timezone issues with large walls when necessary. Inquisitive, freely attacks. Likely town.

alamoes: Newbie, only recently got the ball rolling. Difficult to tell until he gets up to speed.

zombie urist: Replaced freshman, who was very much a newbie. He's a man of few words. He posts so little, it's hard to tell his alignment.

Captain Ford:
Some questions for you: where have you been? You're voting ZU; do you want him lynched? If so, what's your case, and who's your second pick? What are your opinions of Okami no Rei, Deathsword, and Imperial Guardsman?

Zrk2: I believe you're wrong. If Alamoes was scum, he'd have teammates coaching him. He doesn't look coached. Freshman is (was) far more likely to be scum because of his relative silence. There are things missing from his posts that I would expect to see, and I feel like I'm only hearing part of the conversation.

Just noticed this, and felt there was something worth pointing out. The previous Roguelikes have had wacky setups (2 SKs and no scumteam in one game, 2 mentors and no scumteam in another), and I expect that this one will be no exception. It's completely possible for him(or anyone) to be scum/nontown and not have a team. I don't feel alamoes is scummy, but it's something to keep in mind.

Okami no Rei:
You stated here that you would press Leafsnail tomorrow should Zrk2 flip town. Was this a part of your 'deliberate scumminess' gambit? What would your opinion be of Leafsnail if Zrk2 flips scum? If he flips some third-party? Just how suspicious would you be if he flipped town?

Deathsword:
When you manage to get steady internet, some input would be appreciated. Who do you feel should be lynched today, and why?

notquitethere:
The two main lynch candidates currently are ZU and Zrk2. Should either be lynched? Both? Neither? If neither, who should be lynched? What's your read on Hapah?

Zrk2:

=Criticism of leaving your vote on DS=

Oh bullshit. I picked my RVS and asked an open ended question. He responded, and I was not satisfied. I made that clear and asked for more. I did not get it, but the game was moving on and the period in which it was useful had passed, so I moved on to other techniques.

This is fair enough reasoning, I suppose, but see the bottom of this section.

Reads? Okay. Let's see.
...
The Soldier: Leapt on my bandwagon and has been otherwise completely unremarkable. In fact the case presented against me applies to him to. Completely unremarkable. May be scum, or just new.
...

RE: "completely unremarkable","the case applies to him too": I have to agree. I feel like I've played D1 terribly so far, and resolve to play better from now on.
RE: "scum or just new": This is technically my first "real" game here, along with KotM. Please don't let my lack of experience influence your read on me; judge from what you see.

I might seem like a hardheaded idiot to you, but I'm not impossible to convince. Can you defend yourself from the accusations? Who is the biggest single scum candidate, in your mind? If you are indeed town, use your last moments to make a solid case against someone. It may just save you, and if it doesn't, the town can benefit from the knowledge that your case was sincere.

alamoes:
You've stated that you think ZU is scum. Could you explain why, and provide evidence (preferably quotes or links)?

Alright, that took me way too long. Almost 2:30 AM here, need sleep badly.

[Captain Ford]

PFP

4. He didn't respond to the scroll of mail I sent him. 

Oh! That was you! I totally forgot about it after reading it the first time.

You were very cryptic, and I had no idea what kind of reply to send. Sorry, I missed my meds yesterday and I've been very absent-minded as a result. :/

I intended to follow up later on yesterday but that never happened. I was busy most of the night with friends.

My god ... I feel so strange today. I feel like I'm constantly on the verge of falling asleep ... fuck. I think I need to go back to the pharmacy and exchange for the brand name (if that's even possible).

I haven't had the chance to read up yet, and my eyes just aren't tracking on the page. I've also got a lot of work to do today. I'll post what I can, when I get the chance. But ugh...

Unvote until I can figure my shit out. I still don't know what to make of the message ZU sent me.