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[scrdest]

Not necessarily. I've killed someone out of legitimate fear for my life (after they repeatedly abused their power, attacked me, and finally cornered in a dark room and started digging through their backpack), when (as it turned out) neither of us were antags. I gave myself up to the rest of the crew after that, and I ended up being released, because my reasoning was valid. That's this server, though.

Also, if people are that active dealing with murders, why would an incompetent murderer going after you be a problem in the first place? Alternatively, why would you make it obvious that you killed them if you know you're playing with fuckwits? 

Because, ah, that kinda stuff happened on this... very... server. As in, UMcS. So, uh...

[My Name is Immaterial]

Not necessarily. I've killed someone out of legitimate fear for my life (after they repeatedly abused their power, attacked me, and finally cornered in a dark room and started digging through their backpack), when (as it turned out) neither of us were antags. I gave myself up to the rest of the crew after that, and I ended up being released, because my reasoning was valid. That's this server, though.

Also, if people are that active dealing with murders, why would an incompetent murderer going after you be a problem in the first place? Alternatively, why would you make it obvious that you killed them if you know you're playing with fuckwits? 

Because, ah, that kinda stuff happened on this... very... server. As in, UMcS. So, uh...

Did it happen in the last week? 'Cause I warned you! I WARNED YOU ALL!

That is all.

[Damiac]

Yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear, that happened to me on this server, two days ago. I respect the admin who warned me and told me I couldn't do it, but I disagree with him completely on this call.   I wouldn't want to go to another server, I love this one.  That's why I made such a big deal out of a formal warning. It's not the warning that bothers me, it's being told that I broke the rules doing something completely reasonable. As in, in the future, if someone goes out of their way to try to murder me, and properly brigging him isn't going to work for whatever reason, I'm not allowed to kill them out of self defense. 

I think it's totally valid RP to kill someone just for trying to kill me, nevermind whether or not he could be brigged anyway.  It's also valid for me to get thrown in the brig if a higher up decides I broke space law.  But that's all totally IC stuff, not griefing.

[Flying Dice]

Yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear, that happened to me on this server, two days ago. I respect the admin who warned me and told me I couldn't do it, but I disagree with him completely on this call.   I wouldn't want to go to another server, I love this one.  That's why I made such a big deal out of a formal warning. It's not the warning that bothers me, it's being told that I broke the rules doing something completely reasonable. As in, in the future, if someone goes out of their way to try to murder me, and properly brigging him isn't going to work for whatever reason, I'm not allowed to kill them out of self defense. 

I think it's totally valid RP to kill someone just for trying to kill me, nevermind whether or not he could be brigged anyway.  It's also valid for me to get thrown in the brig if a higher up decides I broke space law.  But that's all totally IC stuff, not griefing.

That is disturbing, what can I do?


Heh, but seriously, that bothers me as well. I really don't like the precedent that's being set, especially when it's apparently validating sore losers whining and blame-shifting after they fuck up. I'd rather play on a server where people might lelvalid or grief me than one where I have to choose between being awarned for defending myself or letting a bad antag do whatever they want to me. :x

[Nick K]

Yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear, that happened to me on this server, two days ago. I respect the admin who warned me and told me I couldn't do it, but I disagree with him completely on this call.   I wouldn't want to go to another server, I love this one.  That's why I made such a big deal out of a formal warning. It's not the warning that bothers me, it's being told that I broke the rules doing something completely reasonable. As in, in the future, if someone goes out of their way to try to murder me, and properly brigging him isn't going to work for whatever reason, I'm not allowed to kill them out of self defense. 

I think it's totally valid RP to kill someone just for trying to kill me, nevermind whether or not he could be brigged anyway.  It's also valid for me to get thrown in the brig if a higher up decides I broke space law.  But that's all totally IC stuff, not griefing.

I'm not privy to your conversations with the admins, but from your posts and what I remember from the round, the issue for me would be less that you killed them (although at that point it sounds like they were an unarmed prisoner making what look like empty threats, so I'm not sure I'd call it "self-defense") and more that you went out of your way to gib the corpse so they couldn't play that round even as borg.

[Glloyd]

Guys, I dealt with it out of the thread with Damiac, so let's drop it. I stand by the call I made, because there were more factors at play then that. To clear things up, it wasn't really self defense. I was observing and watching it happen, and in my opinion it wasn't self defense. If anybody wants to know my full justification behind it, feel free to PM me about it, and I'll be glad to share my reasoning, as well as a broader outlook on the whole situation.

The header when you log in says:

No killing, except in self defense, or as antagonist (and show restraint even then). Sitting around watching isn't fun.

So yes, I have nothing against self defense. I'd like to strongly reiterate that, and also would like to point out the fact that judging an event as someone who wasn't there, based on someone else's interpretation isn't always the best course of action. Nothing against Damiac's reporting of the event, it's just that there's typically more at play then one perspective can give.

Thanks guys, and again, feel free to PM me if you'd like a more thorough understanding of the situation, and why it wasn't self defense from my point of view.

[Damiac]

Yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear, that happened to me on this server, two days ago. I respect the admin who warned me and told me I couldn't do it, but I disagree with him completely on this call.   I wouldn't want to go to another server, I love this one.  That's why I made such a big deal out of a formal warning. It's not the warning that bothers me, it's being told that I broke the rules doing something completely reasonable. As in, in the future, if someone goes out of their way to try to murder me, and properly brigging him isn't going to work for whatever reason, I'm not allowed to kill them out of self defense. 

I think it's totally valid RP to kill someone just for trying to kill me, nevermind whether or not he could be brigged anyway.  It's also valid for me to get thrown in the brig if a higher up decides I broke space law.  But that's all totally IC stuff, not griefing.

I'm not privy to your conversations with the admins, but from your posts and what I remember from the round, the issue for me would be less that you killed them (although at that point it sounds like they were an unarmed prisoner making what look like empty threats, so I'm not sure I'd call it "self-defense") and more that you went out of your way to gib the corpse so they couldn't play that round even as borg.

Well, there were 5 minutes left till the shuttle arrived, and like I said, the station was utter chaos due to the vending machines.  So he wasn't going to get borged or anything, one way or the other. Gibbing hardly mattered at that point vs leaving his corpse. I didn't trust my chances of getting him to the shuttle in the chaos, and I didn't want him coming after me, or even getting away with trying to kill me. 

Again, did I mention here, the guy tried to lure me into a hallway and then blow me up with some crazy explosive gun.

[Flying Dice]

Glloyd's right, that's enough of it in the thread.

Though I have forgotten to giggle about the guy herping and downing himself with a bolt pistol.

[Aseaheru]

I found a map bug.

Gateway wire is not long enough. It needs to go to the center.

[Mapleguy555]

Not like we're going to use it, ever :S

[BigD145]

Not like we're going to use it, ever :S

Away mission code was changed recently on /tg/. A dead map was thrown out. Maybe we'll get something moving in that direction.

[Aseaheru]

Has the round ended yet? If so than I HAT COMPUTER. If not than YES!

[LeoLeonardoIII]

So yes, I have nothing against self defense. I'd like to strongly reiterate that, and also would like to point out the fact that judging an event as someone who wasn't there, based on someone else's interpretation isn't always the best course of action. Nothing against Damiac's reporting of the event, it's just that there's typically more at play then one perspective can give.

Thanks guys, and again, feel free to PM me if you'd like a more thorough understanding of the situation, and why it wasn't self defense from my point of view.

I get not wanting to air dirty laundry, and people arguing about stupid shit. But if you have a rule, and you want people to follow it, you might wanna show some examples of following the rule and not following it.

I also get not wanting to write yourself into a corner where some bible-thumping rules-lawyer expects GMs to stick with precedent. But I think offering examples is a good thing, even balanced against rules complexity.

I'm not saying make the rules on login more complex and comprehensive. But you might wanna give people a better understanding of what you mean by "self defense".

For example,

1: If some random non-security person walks up and tries to attack you with a stun weapon, is it ok to stun back?
2: If they attack with a deadly weapon is it ok to attack with deadly weapons back?
3: If you stun someone and capture them, is it never ok to use more force on them?
4: If you're attacked with a stun weapon, have only deadly weapons, and attack back and kill - is that acceptable self-defense?
5: If you're being followed around but not being attacked - just observed - is that an excuse to use any force at all?
6: What if they're stealing from you?
7: What if they're mucking around in your work?
8. Under what circumstances is it ok to gib someone to stop them from coming back?

In a game setting where coming back from death is a possibility, it seems like butchering a corpse to prevent that would be a separate crime, or maybe an enhancement to the murder crime. Does the AI want to protect human corpses that could potentially be revived?

TL;DR: Explain law better or expect crime.

[Graknorke]

I just lost as a traitor despite killing my target twice. Twice.

[Aseaheru]

I lost despite killing.
Whoever says killing is fun is insane.
Whoever says escape alone is fun is insane.
Whoever has to do both is fucking nuts.
Whoever has to do both AND deal with retarded computers is me.