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help i'm trapped in a poll i don't know why i'm here i'm so scared someone please help

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Total Members Voted: 50

[Darvi]

Hey is that Give the Anti-Anti-Potion to Cain thing still going on?

I like where this is heading.

[EmeraldWind]

I took as meaning that ?'s plan has six contingencies.

Like you said to derail ?'s plan we need to cause no less than seven major problems and they have to be problems that effect the plan. That said we might have already deviated more than expected, but the plan is still in motion.

I think the seven is just a significant number in general like the world being created in seven days, seven deadly sins, ect.

The thing here is whether we want to stop ?.   

Though I should point out that ? was hoping Ciro would suffer defeat, so the whole idea of Ciro being a vessel and the fact that the LSS didn't revive Ciro like it normally should could be a result of everything going as planned.

[Corai]

+1 to giving Cain the antimagic potion, but if we do, be ready to run away. Preferably throwing it at him and leaping down those stairs.

[Elephant Parade]

I think we need to do the opposite of what we would normally do to each sibling; i.e., kill the ones we would normally save and save the ones we would normally kill.

However, Oric's reaction to us teaming up with Proxxy makes me think he has a plan in place that will make teaming up with all siblings very, very difficult.

[Toaster]

Considering they typically hate and fear Cain, he on our team would make it harder to get the rest, and vice versa.

[EmeraldWind]

I think we need to do the opposite of what we would normally do to each sibling; i.e., kill the ones we would normally save and save the ones we would normally kill.

However, Oric's reaction to us teaming up with Proxxy makes me think he has a plan in place that will make teaming up with all siblings very, very difficult.

I think Oric's reaction was annoyed but disconnected... sort of like how a GM will treat a rookie player's bullshit. I still think in the long run Oric doesn't feel that we'd ever beat him... but when we leave the Mechanic (Proxxy) alive it means we've created another player in the game with their own agenda plus if we've completely convinced her to leave Oric it means he's out of a Mechanic.

I say Mechanic because Proxxy's Soul Star apparently has some sort of maintenance function and when she dies, she'll be regenerated as another but will still be the Mechanic due to her Soul Star. So we can say the role Proxxy fills is the Mechanic. That said if we had killed her then Oric would have regened her and he'd have a perfectly compliant 100% loyal Mechanic.

[javierpwn]

Why only this cycle?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Inconsistency's. We are just a bunch of inconsistency's.
We were supposed to kill Proxxy. We were supposed to kill Riltia. We were supposed to ignore Cain. We are supposed to kill Floe. We were supposed to not care about the mercenaries. And worst of all, we weren't supposed to be revived, especially not an unauthorized revival.

Likewise, we will be faced with the choice of killing the voice on DL4. Killing him promotes the cycle system. The Cherubs and Last Seraphim know this, and are using this cycle's inconsistencies to further wreck the system Oric has in place, and in turn kill him and possibly devour his Soul Star.
Even then, Cain has attempted to destroy/impede the cycles many times, each time failing, and his latest attempt has only caused him nothing but imprisonment. So it wouldn't just be this cycle.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I still really don't buy the notion that this cycle is completely aberrant. Oric even said "Oh, so it's going to be one of those cycles" on seeing us with Proxxy.

And really, what have we done that's weird and why?

We didn't kill Riltia even though we got a quest to. Okay. Are our other incarnations always utterly devoted to quest rewards?

We didn't kill Proxxy even though she was our enemy. Alright. Are our other incarnations always bloodthirsty and undiplomatic?

We didn't ignore Cain. Er... are our other incarnations really supposed to lack curiosity, especially being loothounds regarding Riltia?

We... cared about mercenaries. Again, are our other incarnations supposed to be aloof dicks?

We were revived before the cycle reset. This is interesting. That might not happen very often... but since we hadn't done any of the other stuff we were supposed to do by then anyway, how aberrant could it be unless we're supposed to be flawlessly competent as well?


And probably more importantly, why would any of this matter? What's the cycle supposed to be and why would not killing Riltia throw it completely off? What part does talking to Cain spoil? What gears does caring about Slog interfere with?

The main information we have about the purpose of the cycles and the Warrens comes from Cain, and it seems to suggest that the Warrens is just a way to generate soul charge. In that context, anything and everything that generates soul charge for the individuals involved, ie anything dramatic and emotional, is perfectly desirable and within theoretical bounds. There's still some room for things getting out of hand in there, but especially since we've learned that the people involved change every cycle anyway, not killing or caring about something in particular doesn't sound very likely to be meaningfully dangerous to the overall machinery.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As I said earlier, there were cycles that went against Oric, they never came to fruition however.


Killing Riltia is a quest, we would get loot for killing her. Therefore, Ciro would kill for the loot, we've established this already as being loot crazy maniacs.(also the loot craziness inside the preprogrammed reincarnation memories, and the preprogrammed KILL HER SHE'S EVIL messages)

She's probably just going to steal all your stuff and kill you later.

Stupid guardian. That'll teach her.

We were supposed to kill Proxxy. Under any circumstances.

you managed to engineer the exact set of actions to ally with the one enemy on DL2 you were absolutely supposed to kill.

We were supposed to ignore Cain, he is most likely the only sibling with a bypass to go past them, and it was encouraged we bypass his level; and it even seems purposefully hard! Too hard with not even enough of a loot gain! And talking to him, would only promote his plans to kill Oric, which he has the potential to do.(which is why his Star was confiscated, as well for his sins)

Caring about mercenaries means that you are spending less energy caring about the other Non-Illborn people who give Soul Charge when they die.
As cain said, the purpose of the cycles were to feed the Underworld and it's inhabitants, the Seraphim. They introduced Oric in order to systematically get infinite Soul Charge, for the purpose of consuming it. Riltia would die at one point, and we would systematically kill every Sibling afterwards(but not every cycle we killed each Sibling, sometimes we have died early on; which is why Cain said some Siblings change less)

I think we need to do the opposite of what we would normally do to each sibling; i.e., kill the ones we would normally save and save the ones we would normally kill.

However, Oric's reaction to us teaming up with Proxxy makes me think he has a plan in place that will make teaming up with all siblings very, very difficult.

Or we could simply not kill any Siblings. We could get them on our side, just not on our party. Get them to help us.

You know, that grammar is kind of odd.  "Her soul rests her?"

Y'know, her soul rests her true form, like all the others. Like how Ciro is the Target, but we aren't fully realized with either or star or powers. Unless we do Soul Duel, in which we became a Soul Shaper.(original Target having something to do with Souls, with a crafting modifier attached)

[Furtuka]

...I've been assuming that was a typo for "here"

[IronyOwl]

"Six degrees of error" suggests that we need to break the cycle in seven ways.

Including Oric, there are seven siblings.

I don't think that this is a coincidence.

I took as meaning that ?'s plan has six contingencies.

Like you said to derail ?'s plan we need to cause no less than seven major problems and they have to be problems that effect the plan. That said we might have already deviated more than expected, but the plan is still in motion.

I think the seven is just a significant number in general like the world being created in seven days, seven deadly sins, ect.

The thing here is whether we want to stop ?.   

Though I should point out that ? was hoping Ciro would suffer defeat, so the whole idea of Ciro being a vessel and the fact that the LSS didn't revive Ciro like it normally should could be a result of everything going as planned.

I think this might be taking it too literally.

Even if we assume it's correct, however, I'd read "six degrees" as six major, meaningful branching fuckups. That's not quite the same as "six problems," because each problem has to be a chaining point.

In other words, he calculated that we'll do A. If we somehow don't do A, he's calculated for that as well, and knows that we'll then do B, or maybe B, B2, or B3. Even if we don't do any of those, we'd then have to do C1-C6. When we manage to perform an H action, we'll be outside what he accounted for at the time.

So basically, the way I'm reading this is as just a phrase. If it's not just a phrase, I'd assume the way we'd foil him- which is different from doing anything we'd want to do, remember- is going to be by doing or exploiting something he didn't account for, or else we're screwed in the face of that level of planning.

I think we need to do the opposite of what we would normally do to each sibling; i.e., kill the ones we would normally save and save the ones we would normally kill.

However, Oric's reaction to us teaming up with Proxxy makes me think he has a plan in place that will make teaming up with all siblings very, very difficult.

But why would that do anything?

The Warrens are obviously pretty complex. Trying to treat the whole thing like an inverted block puzzle doesn't strike me as a very reasonable way to affect it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As I said earlier, there were cycles that went against Oric, they never came to fruition however.


Killing Riltia is a quest, we would get loot for killing her. Therefore, Ciro would kill for the loot, we've established this already as being loot crazy maniacs.(also the loot craziness inside the preprogrammed reincarnation memories, and the preprogrammed KILL HER SHE'S EVIL messages)

She's probably just going to steal all your stuff and kill you later.

Stupid guardian. That'll teach her.

We were supposed to kill Proxxy. Under any circumstances.

you managed to engineer the exact set of actions to ally with the one enemy on DL2 you were absolutely supposed to kill.

We were supposed to ignore Cain, he is most likely the only sibling with a bypass to go past them, and it was encouraged we bypass his level; and it even seems purposefully hard! Too hard with not even enough of a loot gain! And talking to him, would only promote his plans to kill Oric, which he has the potential to do.(which is why his Star was confiscated, as well for his sins)

Caring about mercenaries means that you are spending less energy caring about the other Non-Illborn people who give Soul Charge when they die.
As cain said, the purpose of the cycles were to feed the Underworld and it's inhabitants, the Seraphim. They introduced Oric in order to systematically get infinite Soul Charge, for the purpose of consuming it. Riltia would die at one point, and we would systematically kill every Sibling afterwards(but not every cycle we killed each Sibling, sometimes we have died early on; which is why Cain said some Siblings change less)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"Cycles that went against Oric" sounds interesting, but I don't really recall anything about that topic.

Otherwise, it's been mentioned that personalities and such change each cycle; Cain even exempted Floe and "you know who," but didn't seem to dodge around us in the same way. I've seen no indication that this level of change is tied to their frequency of deaths, other than the obvious of Oric.

I also don't really see FFS plans/hints/inner monologue as being the same as cycle plans. FFS explicitly mentioned elsewhere that he fully expected us to ally with Riltia, but "wouldn't have been surprised if you'd just stabbed her in the gut."

A lot of those reasons also seem to contradict each other. For instance, we're supposed to not care about Illborn mercenaries because a sign told us not to so that we'll focus more on people with souls... but then also absolutely kill every single Sibling? Wouldn't it make more sense to favor Illborn mercs, so we could just go ahead and slaughter every souled person around? Or to ally with all the Siblings, to get a bigger emotions harem to harness charge with?

Similar deal with killing Riltia and then dodging DL3; we're supposed to always, always go for the loot, then skip the loot because it's hard? And if we're not supposed to even be on DL3... why is Oric sitting there with a stall to sell us things?

And besides which, none of this has anything to do with breaking anything, it's just supposedly less than ideal. Wouldn't not exploring a room count as an aberration at that point? It's another chance to get soul charge that we're passing up, right?


Bottom line, I still think the Warrens are pretty robust, and that "breaking" them is going to take a lot more than wearing the wrong shade of hat or eating dinner at an unusual time.

[Toaster]

I interpret it as similar or same as Six Sigma, which is a similar idea set.

[javierpwn]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As I said earlier, there were cycles that went against Oric, they never came to fruition however.


Killing Riltia is a quest, we would get loot for killing her. Therefore, Ciro would kill for the loot, we've established this already as being loot crazy maniacs.(also the loot craziness inside the preprogrammed reincarnation memories, and the preprogrammed KILL HER SHE'S EVIL messages)

She's probably just going to steal all your stuff and kill you later.

Stupid guardian. That'll teach her.

We were supposed to kill Proxxy. Under any circumstances.

you managed to engineer the exact set of actions to ally with the one enemy on DL2 you were absolutely supposed to kill.

We were supposed to ignore Cain, he is most likely the only sibling with a bypass to go past them, and it was encouraged we bypass his level; and it even seems purposefully hard! Too hard with not even enough of a loot gain! And talking to him, would only promote his plans to kill Oric, which he has the potential to do.(which is why his Star was confiscated, as well for his sins)

Caring about mercenaries means that you are spending less energy caring about the other Non-Illborn people who give Soul Charge when they die.
As cain said, the purpose of the cycles were to feed the Underworld and it's inhabitants, the Seraphim. They introduced Oric in order to systematically get infinite Soul Charge, for the purpose of consuming it. Riltia would die at one point, and we would systematically kill every Sibling afterwards(but not every cycle we killed each Sibling, sometimes we have died early on; which is why Cain said some Siblings change less)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"Cycles that went against Oric" sounds interesting, but I don't really recall anything about that topic.

Otherwise, it's been mentioned that personalities and such change each cycle; Cain even exempted Floe and "you know who," but didn't seem to dodge around us in the same way. I've seen no indication that this level of change is tied to their frequency of deaths, other than the obvious of Oric.

I also don't really see FFS plans/hints/inner monologue as being the same as cycle plans. FFS explicitly mentioned elsewhere that he fully expected us to ally with Riltia, but "wouldn't have been surprised if you'd just stabbed her in the gut."

A lot of those reasons also seem to contradict each other. For instance, we're supposed to not care about Illborn mercenaries because a sign told us not to so that we'll focus more on people with souls... but then also absolutely kill every single Sibling? Wouldn't it make more sense to favor Illborn mercs, so we could just go ahead and slaughter every souled person around? Or to ally with all the Siblings, to get a bigger emotions harem to harness charge with?

Similar deal with killing Riltia and then dodging DL3; we're supposed to always, always go for the loot, then skip the loot because it's hard? And if we're not supposed to even be on DL3... why is Oric sitting there with a stall to sell us things?

And besides which, none of this has anything to do with breaking anything, it's just supposedly less than ideal. Wouldn't not exploring a room count as an aberration at that point? It's another chance to get soul charge that we're passing up, right?


Bottom line, I still think the Warrens are pretty robust, and that "breaking" them is going to take a lot more than wearing the wrong shade of hat or eating dinner at an unusual time.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I interpreted that because every Sibling changes, they had died. The higher up they have been on the scale, it would mean they die less, because Target would have had less of a chance of surviving the DL's.

FFS is always trustowrthy! That's why he's the Lying Creator! And that inner monologue wanted us to kill her, as well as those Angel Statues.

Allying with all the Siblings would be a great way to get a Soul Charge Harem! But it could also pose a threat to Oric's cycles, due to the Siblings(or anyone really) finding out that they were just puppets on a string(or calves to the slaughterouse) for Oric and the Seraphim.

Oric is sitting there to sell us things on the possibility of us venturing on DL3, it's easier to skip it for self-preservation, which wins over loot; and living longer gives more Charge than dying from loot issues. He would rather us skip it, because there's not much there except for SUBPLOT, and darkness.(that and sellng us things lowers our money and makes us angrier towards him, which is harvestable)

Self-Preservation. Again, we could get ALL THE SWEET LOOT from the room with the Robotic Jetpacked Laser Dragon, OR: we could move on to the next DL and get more loot rather than dying.
Breaking the Warrens' is going to be difficult, and we may have to choose sides. (unless we choose our own side where we kill th Last Seraphim, Angels, and Oric; then go to the surface and kill the King of Haria for imprisoning Oric in the first place)

[Darvi]

So what you're saying is, we're trying to turn this into a Shin Megami Tensei game and we're trying to aim for the (comparatively) best ending.

[Furtuka]

Pretty much.

...I wonder if the destroy the world in order to get an early new game+ option is available

[Toaster]

But... The future refused to change.

[EmeraldWind]

"Six degrees of error" suggests that we need to break the cycle in seven ways.

Including Oric, there are seven siblings.

I don't think that this is a coincidence.

I took as meaning that ?'s plan has six contingencies.

Like you said to derail ?'s plan we need to cause no less than seven major problems and they have to be problems that effect the plan. That said we might have already deviated more than expected, but the plan is still in motion.

I think the seven is just a significant number in general like the world being created in seven days, seven deadly sins, ect.

The thing here is whether we want to stop ?.   

Though I should point out that ? was hoping Ciro would suffer defeat, so the whole idea of Ciro being a vessel and the fact that the LSS didn't revive Ciro like it normally should could be a result of everything going as planned.

I think this might be taking it too literally.

Even if we assume it's correct, however, I'd read "six degrees" as six major, meaningful branching fuckups. That's not quite the same as "six problems," because each problem has to be a chaining point.

In other words, he calculated that we'll do A. If we somehow don't do A, he's calculated for that as well, and knows that we'll then do B, or maybe B, B2, or B3. Even if we don't do any of those, we'd then have to do C1-C6. When we manage to perform an H action, we'll be outside what he accounted for at the time.

So basically, the way I'm reading this is as just a phrase. If it's not just a phrase, I'd assume the way we'd foil him- which is different from doing anything we'd want to do, remember- is going to be by doing or exploiting something he didn't account for, or else we're screwed in the face of that level of planning.

That's more or less what I was thinking. By problems I meant unanticipated paths, I just oversimplified what I was thinking.
In addition, I think that ? would have ways of re-railing the plan in the early stages... like when Riltia died unexpectedly.

So in order to beat ?'s plan we need to not only derail the plan, but make sure we don't get back on the tracks.

There's a mathematical game I remember where it is impossible to lose as long as you know how to correct the plan on fly. So basically there's a way to win regardless of what your opponent does and sooner or later the game will steer towards a specific ending. The only way to beat the player who has control of the game is to get them to screw up their pattern or break the rules of the game.

In ?'s plan, we already know that there is a lot of foreplanning and ? is currently in control of the game. So as long as we stay within the predictable pattern, we're stuck. Are only choice is to break the rules, which in this case means taking paths that couldn't be predicted. In the case of Riltia's early death the path was unlikely, but not outside of the realm of predictability. As such the deviation was swept under the rug.