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Author Topic: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space  (Read 51921 times)

hermes

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #195 on: July 25, 2013, 09:02:22 pm »

I'm not far in, but I love it so far.  What people say about it feeling empty I could have understood, I had the same feeling about trailers before release.  But now I play it, it is simply not empty at all.  Combat is pretty exciting (everyone's playing on hardest difficulty, right?) and the atmosphere and dialogue is spot on.  Everyone is also aware that Vandal Hearts was linear, right?  This isn't a character RPG, it's a tactical RPG with, as far as I can tell, more options and story than XCOM:EU.
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puke

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #196 on: July 25, 2013, 09:34:38 pm »

Then there's the problem that there's NOTHING free-roam. .... For that matter you cannot modify weapons or cyberwear so you can't use a smartgun, dual-mags, sniper mods, gun-arms, magnifying eyes, hydraulic legs...  Every item is identical and has one set of stats, so you either get Pistol A or Pistol B, and there's no real balance between them or differences.

So, it isnt as good as the Genesis game then?  Thats a downer.
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Bdthemag

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #197 on: July 25, 2013, 09:42:44 pm »

I'm not far in, but I love it so far.  What people say about it feeling empty I could have understood, I had the same feeling about trailers before release.  But now I play it, it is simply not empty at all.  Combat is pretty exciting (everyone's playing on hardest difficulty, right?) and the atmosphere and dialogue is spot on.  Everyone is also aware that Vandal Hearts was linear, right?  This isn't a character RPG, it's a tactical RPG with, as far as I can tell, more options and story than XCOM:EU.
More story? Sure, I can agree with that. More options? I don't really know. XCOM: EU doesn't have very many options, and I don't really find Shadowrun Returns does either. I wouldn't exactly call this game tactical either, because even on the hardest difficulty it doesn't seem very "tactical." Combat largely revolves around hunkering behind good cover, and plinking away at enemies with the same skill over and over again. I'm not saying the combat is terrible, because it isn't. It serves its purpose well enough and the only real problem I have with it is the lack of depth I was expecting. If the character creation is subpar and this is apparently a tactical RPG, then where are my options? I can't use stealth, I don't have the option to do anything special other than a few skill-specific skills that have small added on effects, and since the maps are small and linear I'm not able to have the freedom to pick how I want to go about a certain situation.

But then again, Shadowrun Returns doesn't seem like it was intended to have a whole lot of tactical freedom in the first place. Calling it a tactical RPG is a severely misplaced definition, but since it's lacking any real character customization I can't exactly call it a character based RPG either. I definitely give the team working on the game credit for making the atmosphere and dialogue fit with the original game itself, but I don't feel the story is interesting enough to get very immersed in it.

This is definitely a decent game, I was almost expecting this to just be a complete trainwreck when I first heard of it. But it's missing a plethora of features that could of made it a great Shadowrun game and since the modding capability of this game is rather limited, I don't think we can put much hope into there being some kind of large-scale fan-mod for this game to make the gameplay more engaging.
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Levi

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #198 on: July 25, 2013, 09:57:37 pm »

I seem to have found a bug.  My shotgun vanished.  :(

Ah, I see what happened.  When I tried to equip some armor, it sent my gun to my stash for some reason.  I guess I'll redo the bits from that save.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 10:02:43 pm by Levi »
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Neonivek

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #199 on: July 25, 2013, 11:41:10 pm »

Quote
More options? I don't really know.

Honestly it would require a different game or a major reconstruction of the game.

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Every item is identical and has one set of stats, so you either get Pistol A or Pistol B, and there's no real balance between them or differences

That... is pretty normal actually. Shadowrun isn't a game with +1 pistols (mind you... magic items are things like "Focus +4" and hilariously when you check what +5s are as far as the pen and paper rules are concerned... they are things like pieces of the true cross or the Mona Lisa. Focus +10s wouldn't even be something you could carry.
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Bdthemag

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #200 on: July 25, 2013, 11:48:02 pm »

Just because it's normal doesn't make it okay in a game. An easy way to diversify weapons and still refrain from having your weapon choices essentially be "+2 Pistol is better than +1 Pistol" would of been to add an attachment system. If they made it so each weapon had a certain amount of attachment slots, and you could buy different attachments for each slot depending on your playstyle, then it would of done much to slightly diversify the equipment system and add a bit more depth.
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Viken

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #201 on: July 25, 2013, 11:49:01 pm »

I've been playing for several hours now.  And there is only one thing I have to say:

I HATE THE BUG SPIRITS!
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Girlinhat

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #202 on: July 25, 2013, 11:58:24 pm »

That... is pretty normal actually. Shadowrun isn't a game with +1 pistols
But in the tabletop, there's gun mods and different ammo options.  You can improve the recoil, damage, accuracy, and plenty of utility mods, and the ammo can do all SORTS of interesting non-lethal, armor-piercing, EMP, tracer, injecting...  Endless options.

Instead, you get an ordinary pistol.

puke

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #203 on: July 26, 2013, 12:12:28 am »

Just because it's normal doesn't make it okay in a game.

It isnt normal.  SR4 standardized weapon damages more than previous editions, but there were still unique distinctions like "this one is a revolver but it does more damage" and "this one does less damage but fires bursts".

As GiH points out, it is also a RPG full of minigames about customizing and tweaking stuff for optimal effect.  It's pretty much written to scratch the itches of combat munchkins (I mean this in a good way).

I just saw a couple modding videos, someone figgured out how to add a "crafting" station to combine some items and turn them into other items.  Also, I'm a little unclear, but it sounds like you cant add new weapon models or art, but you CAN make new weapons with existing models? By tweaking this a bit, you could make a smartlinked version of a weapon and then use the crafting station to combine a smartlink and a base weapon into the upgraded version.

This is an awful kludge though, as if you wanted to have various improvements available you would need to make new weapons and new craft actions for every possible combination.
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Neonivek

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #204 on: July 26, 2013, 12:14:21 am »

Quote
Just because it's normal doesn't make it okay in a game

No, but not every game needs to keep all the features of its contemporaries.

Quote
But in the tabletop, there's gun mods and different ammo options.  You can improve the recoil, damage, accuracy, and plenty of utility mods, and the ammo can do all SORTS of interesting non-lethal, armor-piercing, EMP, tracer, injecting...  Endless options

Most if not all of them are going to have unmodified weapons or have "standard modifications" which would be a different weapon.
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nenjin

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #205 on: July 26, 2013, 12:54:19 am »

I suppose the one major hang up I have with the game is its linearity. There's no walking around, because that would require repopulating the same maps with people in different places, things going on ect....

I get that's not what the narrative is about, but all those city scenes were basically just large, one-use set pieces. They got a lot of attention in the press but turn out to have very little exposure in game. It contributes a bit to the sense of being less a Shadowrunner and more a Gumshoe in a movie. You're pursuing a crime and happen to make enough money along the way to continually rehire Shadowrunners to help you. Which isn't bad in and of itself. But for example, I just got handed, for the second time, an ass load of money to hire some runners, for doing something for which ostensibly there was no reward. "Oh, I raided some corporate info while we were looking up this thing, here's your "take", an amount of money equivalent to the highest paid thing you've done so far."

If they had tried so a some what less linear storyline I think I'd be appreciating the game a bit more, I'd feel a bit more like it's a world to be lived in. But what you're allowed to do in game feels very, very, very streamlined. The edges of the box are very clear. Where other games might have had an NPC standing there, offering you a side mission to do at your leisure, this game literally inserted a demand for a side mission in the middle of another mission, to which you must say yes or not right there. All so you can conveniently return to the Seamstress Union and take taxis every where you go (read as: skip to another one-off level.)

For how ultimately linear the SNES version was, it still offered a bit more of a believable world. Yeah, some people hate tedious walking around and re-treading, but it has the benefit of preventing you from feeling like you're being railroaded. Reviewers have said how they see potential for a replay here, but playing a decker, perhaps one of the most specialized classes in the game, I can't really see it. The Matrix is literally the normal combat system where you load programs into your deck to cast like spells....and you even have a couple slots for "Expert Programs" (read as: summons.) It's a nice clean design that is also very transparent. Which means you rely on the hand crafted content (containers, events, details) to carry you through. And this game is honestly light on those things. There's actually very little loot to be had by looking around.

Everything relating to classes is focused on combat for the most part. And there isn't enough variety in combat to make me really crave playing through a storyline I'm going to know very well, just for the sake of punching dudes instead of shooting them, throwing manabolt instead of firebolt.

So while it's a decent playthrough, a story I'm enjoying, just enough RPG and mechanics to give you something to pay attention to...I dunno. I was hoping for more. It's definitely going to take a dedicated modding community and access to the program guts to really bring this game up to its full potential. HBS laid a very nice groundwork, but the short development time really shows in how the campaign is structured, detailed and executed.

It's not that the game is worse than previous Shadowrun games. It's just that it's not a whole lot better in core areas. Worth the money? For $20 I think it's a good deal for someone who loves Shadowrun, just as a chance to get back into the world. As a backer who threw the most money ever at this Kickstarter project though, I feel like the bulk of my funds went to pay for merch. Ultimately the best thing about the game is what the editor is going to be able to do for it post launch.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 01:03:32 am by nenjin »
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Neonivek

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #206 on: July 26, 2013, 01:20:19 am »

Heck my idea of the perfect Shadowrun game would probably turn everyone off.

Where it would be a series of missions where before you even attempt it the goal is to get as much info, contacts, and equipment as you can before you tackle it. Things like Blueprints and even where guards are at certain times (bonus if you manage to plant trackers in before the run).

Where you have to chose access points, entry, plants, and all that.

But that would be too much for most people, probably even myself, to handle.
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hermes

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #207 on: July 26, 2013, 01:37:32 am »

Oh man, whoever flagged up the save system was spot on.  In the Redmond Barrens I did three fights and won all three, and passed those "missions", quit, restarted, all gone and right back at the beginning of the level.  The checkpoints need to be a whole lot more frequent/smartly done.  No indication whatsoever whether you've passed a checkpoint or not.  Very frustrating.
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woosholay

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #208 on: July 26, 2013, 02:43:46 am »

This game is very bad and boring, considering how much money went into it and they couldnt even make a decent save system...
There are free games in the same genre that provide more tactical combat, better itemisation and skill system.
Some might say that combat and items are not that important, and story is where its at. But alas writing is very mediocre too, and game is super linear.
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Bdthemag

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Re: Shadowrun Returns - Let's Kickstart this into space
« Reply #209 on: July 26, 2013, 02:47:58 am »

Oh man, whoever flagged up the save system was spot on.  In the Redmond Barrens I did three fights and won all three, and passed those "missions", quit, restarted, all gone and right back at the beginning of the level.  The checkpoints need to be a whole lot more frequent/smartly done.  No indication whatsoever whether you've passed a checkpoint or not.  Very frustrating.
Yeah, the save system is starting to really piss me off. I was doing the first mission you do for that voodoo guy, and I have my decker character deck into a computer by himself. This was pretty much the last fight sequence of the mission, and I was eager to actually move along. I get through 3/4ths of the decker sequene, killing most of the enemies. Suddenly, two enemies both shoot at me and kill me in one turn. Now this is probably partially my fault, for not leveling up some stat I forgot about (Does the body stat even change your health when jacked in?) but now I have to restart the entire level.

Another thing I dislike is that when you're on a run, even if you defeat all of the enemies in a room you're still forced to move/use actions on a turn by turn basis. If I just eliminated a majority of the enemies in the base and need to investigate a few items in a room, why doesn't it just let me go back into freeroam mode and then swap back to turn-based when enemies show up?
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