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[Baijiu]

Azated has an alt at strongbox that will invite you to the village so you can /suicide. That's probably the easiest way.

Well, I went west from Jaynestown and found a random corpse in a lake with chainmail, longswords, an anvil and some other goodies. I don't want to suicide and lose them. 

I think I'm heading in the right direction. The B12 village is south west from the Strongbox?

[Vactor]

If you can figure out where you are on the map 2 on the first post, I can send you a pm with the grid coordinates of the twelfth bay.

[Baijiu]

EDIT: I'm at N16. How the hell did I get here? :S

[Azated]

It seems alot of people want their own house, so a few of us had a discussion today on how to deal with that. We decided on a 25x25 housing block with 16 5x5 plots.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Nothing spectacular, but that's the new project for our fortress!

I've marked the edges and of the area to build with packed roads, and the corners with lamp posts. The plan is to level as much of that as possible, then wall it off with tall stone walls, pave the tiles in between the plots, then let people choose where they wish to build. They'll have free reign of that plot, so unless we get some sinkholes or lighthouses in the middle of town, they can do whatever they want.

Within that area, feel free to cut down any trees. Try to pick saplings from the fruit trees if you can, and try to avoid cutting them down if you can't get a sapling.

[evilcherry]

and mines. Maximum penalty for mining: Kicking and put on KOS.

[borno]

Could I join in?

My in-game name is leafo.

[Vactor]

Can I suggest we take on a transactive planning or advocacy planning mode for off-deed building?  Blueprint planning isn't condusive to public participation.

Some simple guide lines for building off deed should provide us with what we need.  I.E. build on the edge of the farm, leave 1 tile open between houses if the ground is level, or 3 if there is a slope.  We could lay out a main street to build off from.

Most players won't be able to build more than two or three tiles of housing anyhow.  We could have people reserve land if needed as well, perhaps with signs or fence plans.  Even if it gets congested over behind the farm, there isn't really any need to get through, as there is just a few cliffs behind it.

Edit; I'm on my phone now, I'll put together a drawing of what I'm suggesting when I get home.

[Farmerbob]

You can centralize planning by starting buildings and simply applying a single mortar and brick to them.  Then name them, and give to a central writholder toon that is a free account and let trusted people have access.

[evilcherry]

You can centralize planning by starting buildings and simply applying a single mortar and brick to them.  Then name them, and give to a central writholder toon that is a free account and let trusted people have access.

its unlike that. But for your question: it does not work when people do not heed advice and do as they pleased.

From day 1 of founding, people have been starting their own pet projects outside town. Every week or so, a shack by a village member pop up outside town. Its really lucky that we do not have another random mine shaft. We find it close to impossible, save using a catapult, to police them, partly because of the incapability of more established members to police ourselves (which is a shame), partly because we have no good tool to police without pissing people off, and partly because some of us find a communist society very hard to swallow.

In a nutshell: We cannot prohibit them, so we have to loosely manage them.

Even I disagree with this in principle, at the end I proposed this as a solution of the problem. Not only the problem is just getting out of hand, the solution actually proved to be quite popular (sadly no one had started work yet).


For everyone: Please, really please, don't make more administrative work for anyone else. If you want to start a project, ask. Its better safe than having 2-3 jump on you, scolding you for not adhering to whatever, and trying to spoil what you consider a night's work.

[Vactor]

I think the problem is that people building a village where our village is is seen as a problem.  I understand reserving land for development of the "town" and strictly controlling what happens there, but what we seem to have is reservation of the wilderness, with allowance to do things anywhere granted.

As someone who has successfully managed player towns in multiplayer games, you should be encouraging growth and activity, not limiting and restraining it.  The best leadership in a building game is to be present, marvel at what people are accomplishing, compliment them for their creativity and initiative, and advise them how best to incorporate their ideas into the larger picture.  I think leveling and walling off a square for people to be creative in is kinda backwards.  Let people be creative, and they will want to protect it, and will be more willing to work together building a wall to protect what they value.

It isn't being a community that people are chafing under, i think everyone's on board with that, its having what they want to do repressed, or if they do build being harrassed about it.  This is a game, people are playing to make friends and have some recreation.  If it becomes unfun, unlike life they have alternatives.

[
In a nutshell: We cannot prohibit them, so we have to loosely manage them.

I see the problem in a nutshell: There is a desire to prohibit them.

So reserve the deed, fence off an area for expanding the deed, lay out some roadlines, and let people do their thing everywhere else.

[Folly]

Something I noticed about rares which may be helpful, when you're going to make something rare you will get the Drums sound effect as you start crafting, not after you finish crafting.
This can be very useful when you get a rare ingredient, like a rare shaft or rare lump of iron. When you are adding the rare component to the finished item, make sure you drum sound before the rare is consumed, and cancel the build if you don't get the sound effect.

[evilcherry]

I think the problem is that people building a village where our village is is seen as a problem.  I understand reserving land for development of the "town" and strictly controlling what happens there, but what we seem to have is reservation of the wilderness, with allowance to do things anywhere granted.

As someone who has successfully managed player towns in multiplayer games, you should be encouraging growth and activity, not limiting and restraining it.  The best leadership in a building game is to be present, marvel at what people are accomplishing, compliment them for their creativity and initiative, and advise them how best to incorporate their ideas into the larger picture.  I think leveling and walling off a square for people to be creative in is kinda backwards.  Let people be creative, and they will want to protect it, and will be more willing to work together building a wall to protect what they value.

It isn't being a community that people are chafing under, i think everyone's on board with that, its having what they want to do repressed, or if they do build being harrassed about it.  This is a game, people are playing to make friends and have some recreation.  If it becomes unfun, unlike life they have alternatives.

[
In a nutshell: We cannot prohibit them, so we have to loosely manage them.

I see the problem in a nutshell: There is a desire to prohibit them.

So reserve the deed, fence off an area for expanding the deed, lay out some roadlines, and let people do their thing everywhere else.

tl;dr: This is Wurm not Minecraft. We hardly have the tools to destroy, and it probably takes more time to do so than create.

I got no desire to restrain creativity. But it is not remotely practical to let others build as they pleased, without due regard to other villagers.

What I want is, really, discussion before doing a project that leaves a mark on landscape. Its even better as community efforts will probably be pooled into it. So a sense of belonging is preserved, unless there is a strong desire to make things own and private. Also, this means everyone can contribute to its plans before finalization, since removal of obstructing projects is much more difficult, unless we put the relevant member on KOS and cata it down.

It take 0.3-5 manhour to take down a bad fence, depending on QL, for example. With a catapult it isn't much reduced (unless in large amounts), just made fun. Any sane person will prefer to use these manhours in discussion rather than destruction.

And yes, that is why I call for attention in meeting sessions. Political rights (not right of speech, this is sacred) should not be given to anyone who merely votes.

[micha]

Hi Evil, I'm really glad that Vactor already took a stab at making you listen.  You didn't seem to hear him. Instead you amped up by insisting on 'a plan', perhaps even 'your vision' for the space, unexpressed as far as I can tell; all I learned from you is that you would have me KOS'd as a matter of policy if you wanted to belong, ahem, sorry, no, be known to your elitist political self.. for playing.. in a game!

I found a mapper @ jenn001.game.wurmonline.com/mapper/map.html  you could use this productively, to express your vision for the use of space; you could go out there and be present to mark up the land with messages, but geeeeeeez, no, you're afraid of the potential destruction efforts should someone play in an area you didn't select, is that right -- or just my impression?  that was rhetorical, please spare me the debate.   *** your point about the sanctity of community spaces *** is a good one, could you package it better please?; its driving me away the way its written.

anyway, dang, i spent the last 8hrs reading up on and looking at wurm and I wanna know dwarf stuff about it!  do plants grow underground and can i place my deed there?  how invisible can you make those stone doors?  .. and how close to the group should associated citizens experiments take place?   is a 25 tile courtesy radius not plenty .. and would it not even be desirable for safety/warnings?  .... and of course, how far underground can this be played so the surface keeps us hidden? can deeds secure mines.. or just the doors to them?   

[Farmerbob]

Wurm on Epic is a Brutal PVP environment, so weak communities will generally fail.

In this, Evil is correct, there must be a plan.  There must be effective defenses and willing defenders.  There must be some thought behind design of the core at the very least.

However, that being said, define the core, defend it, and let people do whatever they want outside the core.  If you want greenspace nearby, you had best fence it in and keep an alt with some sprouts around in case your enemies come in, bash the fences, cut the trees and sand the land.

Coming from a DF mentality, it's quite possible that the !FUN! that a chaotic community will eventually have visited on them won't be the game ruiner that it is for most PVP players, but I doubt it.  A lot of work can be stolen or destroyed very rapidly by experienced Wurmian PVPers.  There's a difference between a day's worth of fortress building going poof in DF and two months worth of your personal time going poof in Wurm.

I'm not going to tell either side they are right or wrong here, but I will advise that if you don't have a strong core, you will get flattened, and if you try to control too much, you will go nuts and your own people will start being your worst enemies.

[Azated]

I agree with alot of the things many of you have said, and I have to say that I'm mostly with Evilcherry on this.

I have no desire at all to prevent people doing what they want; this is a game, afterall. The problem with letting people do what they want is that Wurm is a very lengthy and time-consuming game, which means that it is very difficult to do anything on your own. If everyone splits up and builds their own projects, nobody will get anywhere. If we work together, we can accomplish much more.

I want to remind everyone that you wanted to join the community. We didn't force you to come and help us build, you're here of your own free will. If you don't like what we're doing, you're free to leave and find a new area to settle.  The being said, Evil is going a little overboard with the whole KOS thing. There's no need to kill people who do something wrong.

I've noticed one major problem; People don't defend or explain what they've done. If you want to build a house somewhere, tell us why, give us a good reason that it wouldn't affect what the people who payed for the village want to do, and we'll probably let you do it.

The reason for our new housing area is that it will let everyone have a flat block to call their own, it will keep everything organized, and it will allow people to do what they want without interrupting everyone else; therefore avoiding arguments over land ownership.

You've got to remember that there are many, many people in our group. We have 25 or so people on one mountainside. With only half of our villagers online, we're the majority of the server population. It's very difficult to organize them all into a community of any kind, but the best we can do is try to keep everyone content.