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[evilcherry]

I think I have to make a point bluntly here, seeing how snippets of words can be twisted out of context.

What I'm doing is two simple but important things.

First, damage prevention. In general things in wurm need more time to be fully destroyed and restored than created (while compromising is usually in terms of minutes). Mineshafts is one of these. In addition,

Second, keeping some kind of mutual understanding between citizens. So we know someone is building a house to put whatever in, someone wanted a specialized workshop, someone wanted an area for special trees, etc. There need not be a master plan, but at least let everyone know your reasoning and extent/details of the project, so everyone would respect or even chip in into it.

I admit I have failed that massively. Undocumented/poorly understood things still pop up every day, and its a mess to understand what is going to be done, what things are being taken up, etc. Ad-hoccing things, like what we are doing now, is really creating work for the more active/conscious members of the village.

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That is why I always insist on a town meeting system. For policy making. For claiming real estate and doing construction and etc. Creating megaprojects. Changing the long-term direction of the village. Most importantly, work distribution.

Instead, I saw none of it. I see people do things as they like and laugh off. How I can still keep my temper is beyond my own understanding.


So, if this would work, I should humbly request that there should be some degree of governance. Or, rather say, a Constitution/Terms of Reference for the Twelth Bay.

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and as per the point on KOS: If you are building another perimeter wall/fence without gates than rinse and repeat, or make funny terrain at the town entrance, I see no reason why I can't put you on KOS. this is just plain griefing.

[Vel]

I think it should be pointed out for conjecture (from someone who isn't playing with you guys in the village, admittedly) that while this has been labeled a 'communist society', that is.. pretty inaccurate. The set up isn't wrong, of course, especially for Wurm, being familiar with how the PVP works. But if the format of the village is to be as the pro-structured-organization posts (not to be confused with the anti-organization posts) have suggested, you should probably label the society by its' proper name and let people decide from there if it's what they want to take part in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

I could certainly be wrong, having only the context of the forum here -- but that is how it is sounding to an outsider.


Edit - Incidentally I bet this might be the preferred format of governance for a lot of the forum here, since we all come from Dwarf Fortress, where dwarves make up the ultimate despotic society of being entirely cooperative with each other while taking unilateral orders from the player.

[evilcherry]

If you guys don't read forums, just as some guys who don't want to talk in game, I guess we need a better solution.

Right now I'm imping some signs to QL 50. That makes 100 characters: enough for most important messages. If you don't want to, or do not feel like leaving a message here (which is a real shame), please at least leave it in game. Rename the sign to change message. Please plant it to prevent tampering, and sign so everyone know its you.

Everyone else: Please read all messages every day you log in. Please also read this forum thread at a similar interval.


as per the Oligarchy thing: I think this is how feelings get out of hand.

I do not feel like or have the need to be an oligarch, especially when I never hold any official position (other than as the household carpenter, which is earned). What I try to is be active, participate in discussions, make suggestions, base them on reasoning - anything that real political participation should be (and why a lot of politicians has lied to you when they say they lead people).

The political system is *ALWAYS* open. It is no way a dictatorship. It looks like an oligarchy since people do not participate, so a few active members dominated discussion merely by participation itself. And if you do not participate, please do not yell at being disfranchised or discriminated upon.

Feel free to break this alleged "oligarchy", should you feel you want your voice be heard more.

[Sergius]

Ok, a few things.

If we need to make group decisions, they have to be done on this forum. Anything else is not really an option.

Deciding things on Wurm chat just leaves out anyone who isn't there right now. And waiting for everyone to catch up on an issue takes forever.

Alternative methods (making another forum elsewhere, or a wiki, or whatever) may seem like a good idea but it never really catches on.

We're forumites. If we were IRCers then we could discuss everything on-channel. But the only thing we can (mostly) assume is that Bay 12 players read the Bay 12 forums.

And yes, if things are discussed and someone didn't feel the need to pitch in (in a reasonable time frame) don't come complaining that they haven't been heard or that there's some sort of elite running the whole thing.

First, we need a way to list the issues that are up for discussion. Complaints, plans, projects, whatever. Anything we use, the list should be posted here with some degree of periodicity. A Google spreadsheet. Or maybe something like a free Bug tracker?

More on this later, need to make lunch. (to be continued)

[Farmerbob]

I cannot provide instructions on how to do it, but I know it is possible to set up a custom IRC channel within Wurm that is persistent and can be accessed from outside Wurm.  It may be worth the time to talk to the Wurm forum folks and get someone to tell you how, if it might be of use.

[Sergius]

I cannot provide instructions on how to do it, but I know it is possible to set up a custom IRC channel within Wurm that is persistent and can be accessed from outside Wurm.  It may be worth the time to talk to the Wurm forum folks and get someone to tell you how, if it might be of use.

My point is not that we can't have an IRC channel, but that, being that most of us are forum frequenters, most of us aren't going to bother going to some IRC channel. I don't mean that it's hard to set up, I mean that, say, if we were a group comprised entirely from some IRC only community, then sure discussing everything on IRC would make sense. But we aren't. Our only central point of contact outside the game is the forum. Anything else only works partially and fragments us even more.

Even making a separate free Forum has been done several times, but it soon falls out of use.

[Azated]

I've ready all of your posts, and I agree with many. The problem is that not everyone reads the forum every day, so when something important needs to be discussed, we don't have everyone's opinion.

As for our form of government; I like Vactors idea about laying down a few roads, expanding out deed perimeter for future expansion, and then letting people do what they want outside that area.

We actually discussed this at length yesterday, and while not everyone agreed, I think it's the best plan. It lets people do what they want without requiring permission, it lets us expand the deed if we need to, and it still lets everyone have a central crafting area to use.

I'm going to leave this post here for 24 hours. If everyone agrees, this is the system we'll go with. If the majority of posters don't want this, then we'll find something else. Anyone not posting is discounted, so you have no right to complain if you don't agree with the decision.

If the vote is for the exclusion zone, I feel like we should forget this whole political argument, because it takes the fun out of the game for everyone.

[Sergius]

I think having a few main roads and just build alongside them is a neat idea. Maybe lay own a few rules guidelines in respect of other peoples houses (like, don't build RIGHT next to another without at least agreeing to, leave some breathing space maybe?). But that's mostly to avoid disputes later.

[Vovox]

I agree with and support the proposed course of action laid out by Azated.

Allowing people their own space and creativity will invest them more in the town than forcing them into a rigid structure of rules and punishments.  This is in fact a game, not work.  It is here to be enjoyed.

Vovox

[evilcherry]

While I can never agree with the personal housing idea (if you need creativity, create it as a communal project, so there is more community), I feel it prudent to not holding up block/prolonging discussion.

I will abstain from voting, if this lets my point to be made.

[Jake]

From day 1 of founding, people have been starting their own pet projects outside town. Every week or so, a shack by a village member pop up outside town. Its really lucky that we do not have another random mine shaft. We find it close to impossible, save using a catapult, to police them...

Enforcing local planning regulations with siege artillery sounds pretty dwarfy, actually.

[Vel]

The issue with communal_projects_only is that, very likely, you'll end up with some amount of players who feel like they're doing nothing but spitting out stone bricks and planks for other people's ideas all day, every day. After all, you can't have a dozen megaprojects going at once.

Edit: Which is to say, I agree that it seems likely that allowing a balance of freeplay is likely to make the constituent players more likely to feel invested in the overall community and /want/ to spit out stone bricks and planks for someone else's ideas when the time comes. Someone(s) is/are going to have to spit out stone bricks and planks; unavoidable in Wurm, sadly.

[miauw62]

Hey bros!
Im joining in!
Looks like alot of fun, and if its a bay12 settlement, there is no reason not to try, i have a good pc, plenty of free space and a good internet connection, so why not?
It wont finish 'download application' tough, do i just need to give it some more time? btw, ign is Miauw

EDIT:
Expect shittons of questions from me, btw
But i'll usually first ask before i do something, so dont worry

EDIT2:

The download is stuck about halfway.
WHAT DO?

[McTraveller]

In general I like the roads idea - although I admit I'm not sure if you mean a perimeter road or a set of radial roads?

Otherwise I think I tend to agree that while philosophical/political discussions are interesting, they don't really add that much to the experience.

[evilcherry]

Hey bros!
Im joining in!
Looks like alot of fun, and if its a bay12 settlement, there is no reason not to try, i have a good pc, plenty of free space and a good internet connection, so why not?
It wont finish 'download application' tough, do i just need to give it some more time? btw, ign is Miauw

EDIT:
Expect shittons of questions from me, btw
But i'll usually first ask before i do something, so dont worry

EDIT2:

The download is stuck about halfway.
WHAT DO?

Purge and redownload if you feel the wait is a bit too much. Sometimes its your connection, sometimes its the server is slow, most of the time a combination.
Though since it is a 200mb download, patience is needed.