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[Toaster]

Native:

I'm willing to bet that they're some sort of cult-like third-party, like Dariush said, and we should be hunting down the last (probably) elf, the convert (Imiknorris).

What makes you think they're a convert-based group?  This is D4- who else do you think is a convert, if any?

Don't try to twist my words. That should have been read "people were already on board after me", especially given the context. Now you're just trying to take things out of context, don't do that.

Except it didn't say that- Urist's reading of it makes plenty of sense. 

[NativeForeigner]

Native:

I'm willing to bet that they're some sort of cult-like third-party, like Dariush said, and we should be hunting down the last (probably) elf, the convert (Imiknorris).

What makes you think they're a convert-based group?  This is D4- who else do you think is a convert, if any?

Don't try to twist my words. That should have been read "people were already on board after me", especially given the context. Now you're just trying to take things out of context, don't do that.

Except it didn't say that- Urist's reading of it makes plenty of sense.

The fact that there was a king and a queen. A king and queen need subjects, don't they? Other than Urist, it's possible that Think is also a convert, but I'm not entirely sure that there's more than Urist. I would expect the king to be the one doing the converting, and he died N1.

I suppose you could have read it like that, but that's certainly not how it was intended. I'm also fairly certain that's not how he read it at first, either, considering that he only just now brought up the potential contradiction.

[Urist Imiknorris]

I suppose you could have read it like that, but that's certainly not how it was intended. I'm also fairly certain that's not how he read it at first, either, considering that he only just now brought up the potential contradiction.

I most certainly did read it like that at first, and it wasn't a contradiction until you said something that went against it. Until then it was just a pathetic attempt to justify a bandwagon vote.

Don't try to twist my words. That should have been read "people were already on board after me", especially given the context. Now you're just trying to take things out of context, don't do that.

If you meant it that way, why didn't you say it that way in the first place, or clarify it afterward? You're also contradicting yourself again. If he wasn't a popular lynch at the time, then why wouldn't you post any more than a token case when you voted him? Surely you would have been trying to persuade the town to lynch him, given how certain you were that he was scum? Even if you were right about the context (which you are most definitely not) you're still tripping over your own actions, and no amount of accusing me of twisting your words will fix that.

Not sure what you're trying to ask, here. You want me to explain why you shouldn't have to pester me for content? That's a silly question. You're changing the subject because you realize how bad it looks that you didn't ask me yesterday, almost like you were trying to trap me with that.

It was a rhetorical question. I told you why I didn't ask you yesterday. In more detail: I have seen from days 1 and 2 (as well as Wild West Mafia) that bugging you to post new content usually does not yield new content. It usually yields excuses for the previous lack of new content. Therefore, I decided that bugging you for content was a waste of time that would have no impact on the quality of your posts.

Seriously? You say you're waiting until you're sure I'm scum and then you go say you're almost positive I'm scum? If that's the case, then why aren't you trying harder?

Now I'm curious about what you mean by trying. I'm not going to yell at everyone to vote you. I will make my case as clear and readable as possible (like I did in my last post) and continue to further strengthen it by tearing apart your bullshit. A strong case is what gets people lynched.

Would you be happy if I said Everybody jump on the Native wagon! and started calling people out for not voting you instead? Because that's stupid and I'm not going to do that.

Ever since N1, when I'm sure you were probably converted, your content and effort took a dive, something that I know happens to me when I get converted.

Yes, because your meta is my meta. Also, I was totally converted N1. That's the only explanation. It couldn't possibly have been because

I've kinda lost interest recently. I'll stay for now and try to get back into it.

because N1 lasted two weeks. It took a while, but I'm fully back into this game. Also, does your lack of content and effort extend to when you're scum from the beginning of the game?

Seriously, quit scraping scumbucket.

I disagree with your profane name-calling, good sir.

[NativeForeigner]

Bullshit. You're reading it now as a contradiction now because that's the best thing you can pull out of your ass.

I didn't say it that way or clarify because I didn't feel I had to. Obviously, I was reading it the way I intended. If he wasn't a popular lynch at the time, I would have posted what I did and hunted later. I was busy when I first posted and had planned on coming back later, but when I did, there was no need to strengthen my case. I assure you, I'm not tripping over anything, you're the only one who seems to think that. Also, why point out that I'm "most definitely not" right about the context if it's not true? I've only seen newbies and anti-town feel the need to point out their innocence unprovoked.

It only provides excuses if I have a legitimate excuse. I was pretty busy during WWM, which is why you shouldn't necessarily let meta from more recent games affect your interactions with other players. You're just trying to find an excuse for why you weren't trying harder to get information when you should have been. Again, probably because you wanted to trap me after you discovered that you were next on my list of suspects.

That's the problem, you don't have much of a case. You're not even "tearing up my bullshit", you're synthesizing bullshit to put in your case and I'm the one refuting it. I know that you could find a better case on someone else, but you OMGUSed me and now you have to cover your ass because you know it would look bad if you unvoted and went after someone else after this. It would make the OMGUS undeniable. You dun goofed and now you're trying to cover your ass. Your case is weak and you have to try to create bullshit in my case to even keep it afloat. Save yourself some face and find an actual case instead of this crap.

It would certainly make it easier to finally get you lynched (albeit not for the reasons I want). What would make me happy is if you actually put some effort into a decent case. All you have on me is an OMGUS with some "IT'S A CONTRADICTION IF YOU READ IT THIS CERTAIN WAY" and "YOU DIDN'T TRY HARD, EITHER".

I'm just saying, it's not uncommon for someone to stop trying hard once they're not fighting for their original team.

Because that TOTALLY accounts for two days and nights. The only thing that got you back into the game is because you were attacked. The sudden change in the amount of your content shows more of an interest in covering your ass rather than effectively hunting. I'm not sure what you mean by the second part of that. Are you trying to say that I don't try hard when I'm scum? Because I really don't think you can back that up. My lack of effort was a combination of dead week, finals, and general laziness because I didn't need to try. Now I have time and an actually need to put effort into my posts.

Terribly sorry, chap. Would you prefer the more accurate "elfbucket"?

[NativeForeigner]

EBWODP:

Imiknorris: Just reread the question I said I would answer later.

I didn't make much of a case because I thought I was the second vote and when I had returned, there were already enough votes on Dariush that I didn't have to expand my case. Seeing as I was actually the fourth vote, I guess that wasn't such a great choice.

[Think0028]

Otto: Even if you say you never got into the game properly, you're still in it and you're still voting me. Do you have a case?

NativeForeigner: Do you have any case at all to believe that I'm a convert, or are you just listening to Dariush?

[Jack A T]

Imiknorris/Native: What do you consider the most important parts of your arguments against each other?  I'm overly tired and the walls of text are hurting my eyes, and some nice summaries would be nice.

[Darvi]

Votecount:
 

Urist Imiknorris	- 1 -  NativeForeigner
Think0028	- 1 - Ottofar
Powder Miner	- 0 -
Ottofar	- 3 -  Urist_McArathos, Jack A T, Think0028
NativeForeigner	- 2 - Toaster, Urit Imiknoris
Vector	- 0 -
Toaster	- 0 -
Jack AT	- 0 -
Urist_McArathos	- 0 -
-
Not Voting	- 2 - Vector, Powder Miner
No Lynch	- 0 -
-
Extend	- 0 -
Shorten	- 0 -

The day will end in ~1 hour.

[Darvi]

The villagers were almost undecided after the Priest asked for them to a consensus. Among seven people, their votes were divided between four different suspects. Although they unanimously thought that keeping Ottofar alive was not going to help them.

He made no efforts to resist. When asked by the priest for his last words, he replied "Just grant me one last wish. Keep my children safe and healthy. Don't let my death be theirs too."
"The church will take care of them", the priest answered. "Now, please step up."
He laid the noose around Ottofar's neck and signaled the executioner to pull the lever.

After examining the contents of Ottofar's pockets, the priest gave the villagers a disappointed look. They needed to be told no more to know that Ottofar was innocent too.

Ottofar has been assisted in suicide. He was Giles Oxenbrigg,  villager.

[Darvi]

So Ottofar was supposed to die beforehand due to his 24h anti-lurking ability. Mistakes were made, so I'll just auto-extend the day. Aside from that, nothing changed.

Votecount:
 

Urist Imiknorris	- 1 -  NativeForeigner
Think0028	- 0 -
Powder Miner	- 0 -
NativeForeigner	- 2 - Toaster, Urit Imiknorris
Vector	- 0 -
Toaster	- 0 -
Jack AT	- 0 -
Urist_McArathos	- 0 -
-
Not Voting	- 5 - Vector, Powder Miner, Urist_McArathos, Jack A T, Think0228
No Lynch	- 0 -
-
Extend	- 0 -
Shorten	- 0 -

The day will end in ~22 hours.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Bullshit. You're reading it now as a contradiction now because that's the best thing you can pull out of your ass.

You seem to not realize that I've been reading it as a contradiction ever since you made the contradiction.

I'm not tripping over anything, you're the only one who seems to think that.

I want to know how you reached that conclusion - the only people who posted between you saying I was twisting your words and this quote were you, me, and Toaster, and he gave you crap for dismissing my interpretation so readily.

Also, why point out that I'm "most definitely not" right about the context if it's not true? I've only seen newbies and anti-town feel the need to point out their innocence unprovoked.

How am I pointing out my innocence? I'm saying you're lying about the context.

I was pretty busy during WWM, which is why you shouldn't necessarily let meta from more recent games affect your interactions with other players.

Pretty busy, but you still posted significantly more content than you've done in this game (before today at least).

That's the problem, you don't have much of a case. You're not even "tearing up my bullshit", you're synthesizing bullshit to put in your case and I'm the one refuting it. I know that you could find a better case on someone else, but you OMGUSed me and now you have to cover your ass because you know it would look bad if you unvoted and went after someone else after this. It would make the OMGUS undeniable.

Ah, I see. You're too busy screaming OMGUS to actually consider my argument.

You dun goofed and now you're trying to cover your ass. Your case is weak and you have to try to create bullshit in my case to even keep it afloat. Save yourself some face and find an actual case instead of this crap.

Are you trying to tell me to "save face" instead of lynching who I suspect? Why would I do that and why would you suggest it?

Because that TOTALLY accounts for two days and nights. The only thing that got you back into the game is because you were attacked. The sudden change in the amount of your content shows more of an interest in covering your ass rather than effectively hunting.

It looks like you're incorrectly guessing that I got back into this game because you attacked me. No. This post of yours is what got me back into the game, what with the blatant falsehood regarding your vote and suspicious vagueness. Until then I was trying rather unsuccessfully.

I'm not sure what you mean by the second part of that. Are you trying to say that I don't try hard when I'm scum? Because I really don't think you can back that up.

No, it was an actual question which I would like you to answer.

Now I have time and an actually need to put effort into my posts.

Yes, you actually need to put effort into your posts. What's different about today that made you need to do that?

Terribly sorry, chap. Would you prefer the more accurate "elfbucket"?

Now you're offending both my inner Homestuck reference and my inner dwarf! It keeps getting worse!

Jack: Native's been doing little to no participating before today, wherein he actually had to start supporting his case. His reason for not doing so yesterday is that he didn't need to support his case because his prior target was self-evidently scummy. He also made a blatantly false comment regarding when he voted, contradicted his previous statement (of people already being on board the Dariush wagon) when he tried to explain it away, and accused me of twisting his words when I pointed out the contradiction. He's also

too busy screaming OMGUS to actually consider my argument.

Darvi: Ottofar is too dead to be voting Think. (also you misspelled my name)

[Darvi]

Nonsense, his ghost is still around to put the piece of paper into the voting booth.

[Urist_McArathos]

On reread, this right here caught my eye (bold mine):

Yes, because your meta is my meta. Also, I was totally converted N1. That's the only explanation. It couldn't possibly have been because

I've kinda lost interest recently. I'll stay for now and try to get back into it.

This reminds me of something...

Hello, joking admission of Cult Leaderhood. You know what I like to do with joking admissions of scumhood?

Take them seriously.

Oh right.  This is a refuge in audacity.  Telling me you're doing it doesn't make it any less scummy.  I also noticed that you pretty much coasted through Day 1 and Day 2 without a lot of content, now you're suddenly WoT-happy as soon as the pressure starts up.  Getting nervous, Imiknorris?  Let's see here...

Oh, right.  You start off the day with a blatant OMGUS.  Later you state that you're looking for scummy actions instead of flavor in a flavor heavy game.  So far, this is the battle cry of the scum player, since they know they can't explain away scummy flavor.  Slips can be argued, mislynches justified, and mistakes waved away, but if your flavor stinks in this kind of game you can't hide it.  No, best to try and discredit the notion we should hunt based on flavor, even though that's PRECISELY how town barely won in the last Witches' Coven, after several days of ignoring flavor in favor of traditional hunting.  I'm pretty much calling opposition to flavor hunting an anti-town move at this point.

You've gone on to state how scummy Native is, despite the fact your case is comprised almost entirely of things you've pulled out of the tunnel fest you two have had since your OMGUS.  Did you EVER have an original case against Native, or are you just trying to flail until something sticks?

Native:

NativeForeigner: Do you have any case at all to believe that I'm a convert, or are you just listening to Dariush?

I'd like to hear an answer to this as well.  Dariush wasn't a cop, so we have no way of knowing whether Think (or you for that matter) are scum, or if it's just his gut talking.  I don't like how quickly you snatched up his message as proof there had to be more elves to lynch.  It just seems to fit your arguments so conveniently.  Even if it's true, do you have anything to go by besides a potentially inaccurate (and possibly spiteful) message?

[NativeForeigner]

Extend

Imiknorris:

So you say. I don't believe that, you would have pointed it out immediately if you had read it as a contradiction the first time.

I reached that conclusion because you said those exact words, duh. Also, that's not Toaster giving someone crap. That's Toaster pointing out that it's not as as much of a stretch to reach your conclusion as I first thought it was.

Reread and realized that I thought you were referring to something totally different, so ignore statements about pointing out your innocence. As for lying about the context, that's not really something you can lie about. The context was not as clear as I thought it was and you're trying to take advantage of that now.

I was even busier than WWM (with finals and all) and no one really called me out on that. Also, I didn't really have to try until now. In WWM, it wasn't as easy to be lazy. Regardless, that still doesn't explain why you're using recent-game meta instead of established meta.

What argument? You can't call your failure to question me earlier and your failure to ask for clearer context an argument.

I'm trying to tell you to save face because you're making a fool of yourself and tunneling (I'm admittedly starting to tunnel at this point as well). Things go poorly when players start to tunnel, that's why I'm telling you to save face and look for a better case, because even if you are an elf, you might be able to actually find a witch before you get lynched. Gotta remember that there are at least two anti-town parties and elf (definitely elf) or town, witches are still an enemy.

Riiiiiight, so after I started attacking you and you found something to take the pressure off yourself you jumped back in. That's not so far off from what I said.

Only wine can come from this question, so I'm not very surprised that you would ask it. I'll answer it anyway: No, it doesn't extend to that because as scum, my goals don't change. However, when I start as a townie and I'm converted into a cult (thus changing my goal) I feel that I've failed my original goal and lose a little bit will to play, which negatively impacts my effort. So that's one wine-filled question and it could also be seen as a trap (I answer yes, you have me because I haven't been trying hard, I answer no and don't back it up and you can claim I'm lying). What is it with you and traps? Or maybe I'm just reading too much into your questions.

The difference between today that made me need to try is that you're actually making an effort to defend yourself, making me have to defend myself, people aren't already at your throat, and you don't have flavor that makes you obvelf (because you're probably a convert). Jim had incriminating flavor, Dariush has always been rather poor at defending himself (he rages too much) and people were already after him.

It must be unbelievably humiliating to your inner-dwarf to have been converted by elves in the first place!

Jack: A sudden dip in effort after N1 followed by a sudden jump in effort in D4 after I started attacking him, his refusal to see my statement in the context I intended, his lack of an actual case against me, tunneling (of which I am also guilty), OMGUS, and his failure to even suspect someone who's flipped elf. I think that's it.

Think/McArathos: Totally missed that, my bad. I don't think I said I thought you were a convert. Don't think I actually said I thought you were anti-town, either. I simply said I was going to give you a look-over because several people seem to think you might be scum. Not throwing any accusations your way yet.

McArathos: Where did I even mention that I was snatching up Dariush's message for anything? I thought Imiknorris was probably an elf since D2. The cult-context came after some analyzing. Dariush was only mentioned when I mentioned that he also thought that elves were a cult.

[NativeForeigner]

Jack: Totally forgot! Imiknorris' "I think you're the scummiest, but I'm really not sure whether you're scum, but I'll try to get you to hang when I think you're scum, but you're totally scum, but I'm not trying to get you to hang yet, but you're almost definitely scum." nonsense, where he contradicted himself in the very same line, was a big tell for me. LINK