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Author Topic: You are King OOC Thread  (Read 286981 times)

Sheb

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8790 on: December 07, 2011, 10:57:00 am »

Okay, good to see everything had been solved. I don't know if I'm responsible for anything, what with being a recent arrival and all, but if I caused anything bad, apologies.
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CyberGenesis

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8791 on: December 07, 2011, 12:25:28 pm »

Ardas, as i already pointed out - half the mechanical suggested your petition contained have no basis for functionality. Ideas were discussed last night after we all got done bitching at eachother which might be usable. We'll see in the future

And yes, 5 PCs are alive - But will all soon be paying for their indiscretions
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Sheb

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8792 on: December 07, 2011, 12:26:51 pm »

Wait, Tala, Pasha, Laythe, Nikephoros and Thunderblade. Cool, I'm useless enough to escape GM's anger. ;D
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Dwarmin

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8793 on: December 07, 2011, 12:37:51 pm »

Maybe they didn't mention Sheb because Kathos was going to shish-ka-bob him for subverting his authority?
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Rockowl

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8794 on: December 07, 2011, 01:00:57 pm »

Whoa, thought I might join this but... :-\

IMO, stick to the rules. The truth hurts, but cheating eventually hurts even more.
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Ardas

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8795 on: December 07, 2011, 01:37:43 pm »

Ardas, as i already pointed out - half the mechanical suggested your petition contained have no basis for functionality. Ideas were discussed last night after we all got done bitching at eachother which might be usable. We'll see in the future

And yes, 5 PCs are alive - But will all soon be paying for their indiscretions

Ok, i'm not going to argue madly about that. I know whe discussed that already. I simply want to make sure that some consideration was given to accomodate the most important changes, like caps on tactics and so on. But we trust you on this, you are the resident maths wizard here.
As for PCs, I hope that GM won't be deliberately trying to kill them, although some "fun" won't hurt that badly I suppose.
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NUKE9.13

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8796 on: December 07, 2011, 01:41:01 pm »

Whoa, thought I might join this but... :-\

IMO, stick to the rules. The truth hurts, but cheating eventually hurts even more.
Ah, don't worry. No one has actually tried to cheat. The problem is more that the rules are badly defined.
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Rockowl

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8797 on: December 07, 2011, 02:57:39 pm »

Whoa, thought I might join this but... :-\

IMO, stick to the rules. The truth hurts, but cheating eventually hurts even more.
Ah, don't worry. No one has actually tried to cheat. The problem is more that the rules are badly defined.

Hmmph. Because of that problem I dislike bureaucracies...  ;_; 

Can someone make the rules simple and clear to understand? You know, with mutual agreement? If not, I suggest letting the GM cut the knot because that's probably better than starting an endless discussion. My two cents.
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leone313

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8798 on: December 07, 2011, 03:36:58 pm »

Actually the discussion ended.
By the way, it's good to see everything back to normal (well, normal being the usual level of common PC crazyness as opposed to the bloody rage of yesterday :p).
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NUKE9.13

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8799 on: December 07, 2011, 03:41:33 pm »

Hmmph. Because of that problem I dislike bureaucracies...  ;_; 

Can someone make the rules simple and clear to understand? You know, with mutual agreement? If not, I suggest letting the GM cut the knot because that's probably better than starting an endless discussion. My two cents.
...yes, thank you. We do try to strive for mutual agreement. Unfortunately, this is not always possible, and whilst the rules are fairly simple, we cannot reduce them to 'everyone get along'. The thing about bureaucracies is that, terrible as they are, they are often necessary.

But most of the rules are simple and easy and suchlike. Its just PvP combat that has a potential to cause problems.


On which note. I've written down a first draft of a reworked combat system.
I will summarise (the major things):
-Battle rolls changed from D6+strength to D(strength).
-Tactics made a lot more integral to combat: Everyone uses tactics all the time, but they are not as crazy (split forces has been removed entirely; it was broken).
-Damage dealt with. Choosing which units die/survive involves tactics. Partially damaged regiments have a chance to be destroyed anyway, and otherwise need to be healed/repaired with money/time/doctors.
-Sieges are completely different from regular battles. Defenders receive strength bonuses to every unit, but cannot perform tactics. Attackers too have their tactics capacity constrained.
-Retreating is actually dangerous now if you don't have the advantage.
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NUKE9.13

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8800 on: December 07, 2011, 03:47:43 pm »

The rules of Warfare, redesigned not to be as ridiculously broken.
The recruitment and management of units:
Regiments: The base unit for warfare is the regiment. It represents a single cohesive unit of soldiers, who act as one on the battlefield.
Recruitment: To recruit a basic regiment costs one manpower and one ducat. Regiments take a month to become available.
Elite Regiments: In rare circumstances, elite regiments may be available for recruitment. These cost twice as much in manpower and ducats as a basic regiment, and take a season of training to become available.
Ships and Siege weapons: A basic ship costs one ducat and one sailor specialist to recruit. It takes a month to become available. A basic siege tower costs .5 ducats to recruit. It takes a month of construction to become available.
Personal Guard: Any character with the appropriate authority (basically any authority at all) can recruit a personal guard; loyal forces which cost one less manpower to recruit (so a basic regiment requires no manpower). You may only have one unit of personal guard. If you start with a regiment, that regiment is your personal guard. Only in the most exceptional circumstances will a PG unit not remain loyal to their owner.
Upkeep: Units cost upkeep, which varies depending on their upgrades. A basic regiment costs one ducat in upkeep. This is paid once a year, at the start of spring. If you cannot pay for a unit’s upkeep, the unit disbands. Make sure your finances are in order when spring comes!
Upgrades: There are various upgrades which can be applied to various units. See the section on Upgrades.

Upgrades:
Upgrading Units: To upgrade a unit requires ducats and possibly manpower. Some upgrades also require access to a certain resource. These upgrades can be bought without the resource, but only once per year per kingdom. Upgrades can only be performed in friendly territory. Upgrading takes a month per upgrade. During this time, the regiment must stay in the same location, and will only be available for defensive duties.
Removing/Replacing Upgrades: No refunds.
Number of Upgrades: Most units can have two upgrades. Elite regiments can have three. Duplicate upgrades are not allowed.


Battles
When two opposing armies are in the same region, either commander can choose to attempt a battle. The other commander can retreat, either into fortifications (see Sieges) or to another region (see Retreating).
Small scale Warfare: An 'army' with less than three regiments is no army, and cannot fight as one. Battles involing 'armies' of this size are not to be resolved with the large-scale combat system, but rather on a case-by-case basis which we will not go into here.
EDIT: Large scale Warfare: For every 6 points of effective strength over 8 shared by both armies, the damage factor increases by one. Which is to say, if both armies have an effective strength of 14 or higher, damage is doubled. If both armies have an effective strength of 20 or higher, damage is tripled.
Attacker/Defender: Provided that both sides agree to the battle, it must then be decided who will be the attacker, and who the defender. Usually, the side who starts the battle is the attacker. However, a successful ambush allows the ambushing side to be on the defensive from the get go, if they wish. Some upgrades and tactics only work when attacking or defending, and the defenders will often get more terrain bonuses than the attackers.
Terrain Bonus/Other Modifiers: Situational modifiers to the battle conditions must be clearly defined before the battle starts by a GM. Items to be considered are terrain and the advantages that gives the defending force, weather conditions and the effects that can have on Moral and other things, and the consequences of other actions performed before the battle to modify the situation.
Rounds: Battles can be handled round-by-round or with several rounds at once. The default is round by round; both sides must agree in order to 'speed things up'.
Tactics: Commanders tell the GM which tactics they wish to use for the coming round(s). See Tactics. Tactics are kept a secret (unless the enemy has some way of knowing about them) to prevent metagaming.
Combat: Both sides roll a die, with an amount of sides equal to their armies effective strength in this battle. In other words, an army with a effective strength of 7 rolls a d7, whilst an army with an effective strength of 10 rolls a d10. The side which rolls higher has won that round of combat. As such, even the mightiest army can lose a round of combat to the weakest army (unless the weakest army has a strength of one). If the results are equal, there is a draw.
Damage: The losing side suffers a point of damage. In the event of a draw, both sides suffer a point of damage.
Attrition: An army with no modifiers to the contrary suffers a point of damage in attrition for each round of combat.
Losing Units: Damage merely reduces the effective strength of an army until the battle has ended; units, and any bonuses they confer, are not 'lost' until that time.

Tactics Note that the new list of tactics is merely a suggestion at the moment and I make no claims as to it being balanced; costs and consequences will need work.
Tactics score: Both armies have a tactics score, made up from the following:
1 point of tactics per unit with the tactician upgrade.
2 points of tactics from having a commander present.
2 points of tactics from the commander trait 'tactician'.
-1 point of tactics per enemy fear unit.
+1 point of tactics per friendly fear unit.
Situational modifiers up to a maximum of +4 or -4, to be made clear before the battle starts by the GM.

Rolling Tactics: Both sides choose which tactics they will use. A d6 is rolled and added to their tactics score. So long as the total cost of tactics is less than the total tactics score, all tactics succeed. If the score is insufficient, tactics will fail. There are three categories of tactics, which determine when they fail. Risky Tactics all fail as soon as the tactics cost is less than the total tactics score. Their cost is removed from the total cost. If the tactics score is still lower than the cost, Advanced Tactics fail as well. These fail one by one at random until the tactics cost is less than the tactics score. Basic Tactics cannot fail.
Basic Tactics: These tactics are commonly used, being effectively just basic orders to the troops. These are only chosen at the start of the battle; their costs persist throughout. You cannot spend more than your base tactics score on Basic Tactics.
Avoid Losses (Basic): Costs 2 tactics. Avoid one round of attrition.
Push Forwards: Costs 1 tactics. A unit is sent to guard the flanks of others, or to be the first into dangerous situations. These units will suffer damage first at the end of the battle.
Hold Back: Costs 2 tactics. A unit is kept out of the deadliest parts of the battle, only sent into fights it will definitely win. These units will suffer damage last at the end of the battle. Siege units are automatically Held Back
Fight Harder Not Smarter: Costs 2 tactics. Effective strength increased by 1. Just shout at the men to fight harder.
Sabotage Tactics: Costs 2 tactics. Reduce enemy tactics score by 1.
Advanced Tactics: These tactics represent more complex manoeuvres, which could go wrong if the enemy acts unpredictably, or if one's own troops act stupidly. Some have consequences for failing.
Target Unit: Costs 1/2/4 tactics, depending on the situation: 1 if the targeted unit has been Pushed Forwards, 4 if it has been Held Back, and 2 if neither is the case. The troops are directed to take out a specific unit; if they succeed, that unit will be damaged first at the end of the battle. Failure: -1 effective strength.
Analyse Enemy Strategy: Costs 2 tactics. Shows which units have been Held Back or Pushed Forwards Failure: -2 tactics next round.
Carpe Diem: Costs 2 tactics. Effective strength increased by 2. Watch the battle, and direct your soldiers to weak spots in the enemy line. See how micromanagement saves the day. Failure: -2 tactics next round.
Capture Unit: Costs 2 tactics. Requires that the unit has been targeted. The unit is not destroyed but captured, provided that enough damage is done to 'destroy' (subdue) it. If that unit contains any notable characters, they have a chance to escape (+3/+5 difficulty: +3 if the capturing side retreats, +5 if the capturing side is victorious. Other modifiers may apply), and will be captured if they fail.
Avoid Losses (advanced): Costs 3 tactics. Avoid one round of attrition. Risks failing, but has a lower cost- probably. Failure: -2 effective strength.
Devastating Charge: Costs 3 tactics. Enemy suffers extra point of damage if you win this round. Failure: Suffer additional point of damage if you lose this round.
Counter-Tactic: Costs 2 tactics. Increase cost of specified tactic by 1 for next round.
Risky Tactics: These are the things famous generals put on their resumes. They can change the tide of the battle if they succeed, but if they fail... well, pray they don't fail. Note: Every 'Lose this round' after the first increases the damage suffered by 1. So if you 'lose this round' three times, you lose, and suffer 2 extra damage.
Negate Terrain Bonus: Costs 1 tactics. Reduces enemy terrain bonus by 1. Failure: Reduce effective strength by 1
Flank the Enemy: Costs 4 tactics. Increases effective strength by 6, and decreases enemy moral by 1. Failure: Lose this round.
Taunt: Costs 5 tactics. Enemy defender becomes attacker. Failure: Lose this round
Feint Retreat: Costs 4 tactics. Must be defender. Permanently increase effective strength by 3. Failure: Become Attacker.
Perfect Leadership: Costs 3 tactics. You do not deal with probabilities and guesses. You see the whole battle, and know the strength of every man on it. Under your command, the outcome is a certainty. Flat +2 to battle roll (your roll becomes D(strength)+2). Failure: Moral decreases by 1, cannot use again.
Force Rout: Costs 3 tactics. Enemy makes moral check (difficulty 2+). On a failure, they flee. Failure: Lose this round.

((As I said, balanced this is not. But this sort of tactics are more sensible, I think.))

Retreating
Retreating from battle: The side with the advantage (won the last round) can retreat from battle without penalty. The opposing force can choose to pursue, but that is handled strategically. The side without the advantage may also choose to retreat. However, by doing so without the advantage they automatically suffer damage as if they lost the round, and will only successfully retreat if the opposing force chooses not to pursue, or they succeed a 4+ difficulty roll on a D6. No tactics can be performed when retreating.
Fleeing from battle: If one side is forced to flee (due to failing a moral check), they suffer damage as if they lost the round. The opposing force can choose to pursue, and if the fleeing side fails their 4+ difficulty roll to get away, the fleeing side suffers another round of damage. Repeat until either the cowards manage to get away, or are utterly destroyed.
Fleeing automatically: On the fourth round of battle, both sides must start performing moral checks, difficulty 2+. Failure results in that side fleeing. If both sides fail, both sides flee. And feel very silly about it afterwards. Moral is reduced by one for every two rounds after the fourth (6th round, 8th round, etc)
Retreating certain units: You may choose to have certain parts of the army retreat whilst the rest stays behind. The retreating units automatically get away, unless the units staying behind are wiped out in the same round.
Strategic withdrawal: An army which flees the field, or flees before the start of a battle, must leave the area, and cannot return until the next season at the earliest.
Withdrawal into fortifications: An army which flees the field, or flees before the start of a battle in an area which also contains friendly fortifications may choose to retreat behind their walls. If the enemy still wants to engage them, then we get a siege.

Damage
When the battle has ended (one or both sides have either retreated, fled, or been destroyed), the damage done during the battle must be dealt out. If the army did not suffer enough damage to be destroyed, work out which units were damaged like so:
Units which were Pushed Forwards and Targeted are damaged first. If there is not enough damage to destroy all units in this category utterly, damage will be allocated randomly until it is spent.
Units which were Pushed Forwards or Targeted are damaged next. If there is not enough damage to damage all units in the category, damage will be allocated randomly until it is spent. A unit which suffers damage (but is not destroyed, due to having an effective strength greater than 1 in the battle) is switched to the Held Back category.
Units which were neither Pushed Forwards nor Held Back are damaged next. If there If there is not enough damage to damage all units in the category, damage will be allocated randomly until it is spent. A unit which suffers damage (but is not destroyed, due to having an effective strength greater than 1 in the battle) is switched to the Held Back category.
Units which were either Held Back or injured in previous damage categories are damaged last. If there is enough damage to destroy all units in this category, the army has been destroyed. Otherwise damage will be allocated randomly until it is spent. Note that siege weapons are OHKO- they are destroyed upon receiving any damage whatsoever.
After damage has been dealt, there may be units who suffered damage, but not enough to destroy them. For example, a heavy unit, or an archer on the defensive, which only takes a single point of damage has still got a point of strength left before it is destroyed. In this situation, roll a D(unit strength). If the result is equal to or less than the damage received, the unit is destroyed anyway. Otherwise, it survives, but needs .5d per point of damage to be restored. Injured units cannot fight, but can move. An injured unit can also be restored by spending a season locked in place, in a location where repairs/recruitment can be enacted (at a rate of one point of damage/season). Trained medics may be able to increase the survival chances of select units and aid in the recovery of injured units.

Sieges
Historically, most battles were sieges. Also historically, most sieges were boring.
Sieges have slightly different mechanics compared to field battles.
Supplies:The problem with sitting behind big stone walls is that one cannot eat the walls or the enemy will be able to get in. Thus, supplies must be provided. One unit of supplies is enough to feed one regiment or one population point for one season. A fortification has 1 unit of supplies per population point and 2 units per fort level. Additional supplies can be stockpiled at a cost of .5d/supply. Supplies will not deteriorate if the attackers cannot besiege the location.
Surrounding the fortifications: In order to effectively besiege a location, supplies must be cut off, from both land and sea. At least one ship is required to blockade a port, and at least three regiments are required to block access to a town/fort.
Sneaking supplies in: Even if the enemy surrounds the location, supplies can be smuggled in. Scout or raider units can attempt to smuggle supplies in from outside. This requires them being outside of the city/fort, paying up to 2.5 ducats (for up to 5 supplies), and then smuggling the supplies in. (A 4+ difficulty action). Ships can do the same. All ships are suited for this task, and can carry 5 supplies per cargo space.
Non-conventional supplies: A cavalry upgrade can be sacrificed for two supplies. Bottom-of-the-barrel type things like vermin, pets, and the corpses of fallen comrades can be consumed once for 2 supplies and a -1 to moral.
Starvation: If there are not enough supplies to last a season, units and population will die of starvation at a cost of -1 to moral each. If moral needs to drop to -5 or lower to last the season, the garrison/town will surrender (at the end of the season). Of course, the siege is also over if everyone starves to death.
Sally: The defenders can attempt to sally forth at any point. They surrender their defensive bonuses from holding the walls, and face besiegers as attackers in a regular field battle. If they are routed from this battle, they have nowhere to run to and the entire army is thus either captured or destroyed, and the fort/town is captured.
Assault: The attackers may choose to attack the fortifications, either due to impatience, a lack of their own supplies, or the impending arrival of enemy reinforcements. In this situation, the following rules apply:
  • The defenders may not use tactics. Tactics score is converted into effective strength at a ratio of 3:1.
  • The defenders have a +3 moral bonus as they have nowhere to run to; running is pointless.
  • The defenders gain 0.5*fort level in effective strength per unit.
  • The defenders only suffer attrition once every [fort level+1] rounds.
  • Attacker Tactics score is reduced by a third of the defender's tactics score.
  • The following tactics may not be used by the attackers: Target Unit, Capture Unit, any of the Risky Tactics except for Perfect Leadership.



Some other stuff needs to be stuck in there as well. But this is mostly the stuff that needed changing.

I think this should handle the issues encountered here, as well as potential issues in the future. But there's probably a million things wrong with it, and dozens of things you want in the combat system which I haven't mentioned: Feel free to point out any issues you can find/can't find.

I am going to put this on a wiki page shortly, and I will not rest until we have definitively fixed the combat system.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 06:43:51 am by NUKE9.13 »
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CyberGenesis

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8801 on: December 07, 2011, 03:53:08 pm »

I have to head out for a couple hours. When i return i'll read this in detail and see how long it takes me to break it ^.^
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Taricus

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8802 on: December 07, 2011, 03:58:35 pm »

Well, we can do a few tests in IRC if someone brings a dicebot...
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Ardas

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8803 on: December 07, 2011, 04:03:20 pm »

Well, we can do a few tests in IRC if someone brings a dicebot...

Sounds good. we can run a sim of the Mileth siege under new rules. This being a sim it should not cause any bad blood
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Taricus

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Re: You are King OOC Thread
« Reply #8804 on: December 07, 2011, 04:07:57 pm »

Yeah, sounds alright.

Also, a few questions about the system
1: Can regular regiments be upgraded to elite?
2: Are personal guars able to be recruited as elite?
3: Will there be plans for pitched battles AKA both sides being the attacker?

Also, I don't agree with Elite regiments taking two manpower. Maybe one manpower and 0.5 manpower maintenence?
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