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[Solifuge]

BDthemag, why in the heck are you still voting for JoshuaFH? Explain how it makes any sense to pointedly enforce the tie we have right now, compared to any of the other much more likely candidates we have out there?

Leafsnail, have you been around to read this? Toaster, you say you're fine with a Jim lynch, but your vote isn't where your words are. Do you put that much stock in the vote of nigh-confirmed Scum?

We're going to be stuck on a very unpleasant tie if we don't resolve this, and that means we lose another Townie to the Cult, while the Devil Deal becomes an even greater crapshoot than it already is.

[IronyOwl]

Extend.


Crown:

IronyOwl, note that resurrection actually comes AFTER conversion. It's kind of hard to convert a dead guy. So it's impossible for me to be the Lord.

How do you know?

Second post in the thread from Meph. He gives the order of night actions.

Correct. You've been nudged all the way to completely impossible.



Jim:

Don't you mean the lurker who doesn't need defending? Isn't that what you should really be saying? If he is the VL then the scum are fucking golden because he's going to get a free pass. That attitude blows.

So this really has nothing to do with thinking he's the VL who needs the noose, so much as thinking he's a lurking piece of shit who deserves the noose.

"Cool lists guys, you fucking suck. Let's just randomlynch instead because you're all dumb."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is awesome, but the fact remains that you're vaguely poo-pooing others' reasoning while providing nothing of your own.

Jim:  You've pissed on everyone else's ideas without offering much in the way of your own.  Who are your picks for Lord and cultists?

Azure Sepulchre or Bdthemag is the VL. They're the likeliest candidates that don't involve a retarded string of conversions to make happen. We should be lynching one of them today.

So you do like lists and edge cases justified with WIFOM, just only when they're your own?

Cultists I'm less certain about. I'm starting to think Solifuge might be one. I'm having trouble believing he can believe such terrible reasoning and still be town.

Why can't he just make terrible decisions, like Bdthemag?



Solifuge:

and talking down the Scum's competence is the same damn thing you try to do every game that you're Scum.

Prove it, asswipe, because that's not my meta.

As far as I'm aware, Jim talks down the scum's competence every game period. Where are you getting this impression?

If my read on Crown's playstyle is correct, it IS an egregious bandwagon. He's trying to create a sense of doubt, by playing to our assumptions of his scumminess.

Examples please. What makes you say this?

Also, in regard to your earlier question of protection options, I'm a Priest with a Res, and thus a bit of a priority target for the Cult. Metagame suggests I'm likely to be an Unpious Priest, so my usefulness is limited (the chance for adding a SK to the mix does not behoove Scum), but I suspect I'm going to be high on their list of converts nevertheless. If they get me and make me raise a Cultist, that would tie up the lynch for two days (one for me, and one for my target). If we don't manage to bag the Lord before that, things could get bad very quickly.

I get the feeling you're already cult and trying to head off suspicion with this- it just seems odd and completely out of the blue to say "Listen everyone, I'm a high-priority convert target, so I'm likely to be converted sometime in the future, so we really need to find the Lord."

To Leafsnail, and whoever he offers his deal to tonight: (who IS our prime candidate for the offer right now, MaxWhite?)
- In the event that we don't bag the Lord today, Crown is nigh-certain Scum and would be removed upon your acceptance, so we can avoid LYLO. AzureSepulcher, MysteriousBluePuppet, and IronyOwl are all viable kill targets. I feel less good about offing Azure with his inactivity and no opportunity to claim, but it's there.
- In the event that the lynch flips Vampire Lord then we're in the clear, and you can do what you will.

You still haven't responded to Toaster's questions/comments on your list, so I'll just add my own:

Likely:
IronyOwl: If converted Vector/Nuke and learned she had no Covenbuddy, OR converted said Covenbuddy and falseclaiming.

Can witches not have a covenbuddy? What use is a lone mason?
I'd also have to be a VL with a guardian angel, which seems odd, or have converted MBP the doc, since Max confirmed him as a Protector. Unless there was really only one witch, that's too many conversions to get them all.

Jim Groovester: If converted a Dreamwalker at some point. Only 1 living Slave if Lord (was blocked).

Jim could have converted Toaster as well, obviating the need for being blocked. Why are you assuming Jim and Toaster being scum are mutually exclusive?

MBP: If converted a Guardian Angel OR concocted a detailed falseclaim.

MBP was confirmed as a Protector by Max, so he'd have to have converted Max as well.

Possible:
Toaster: If converted a Guard N1, AND later converted Jim (he claimed to see Toaster locking him up).

Here you go again, making sure we all know that Toaster was seen locking Jim up, and is thus clearly a Guard.

Unlikely:
Bdthemag: No prerequisits. Unlikely, since took Devils Deal, and for Redirect instead of Kill (scum discuss these things).

You still haven't explained why he wouldn't make a terrible decision simply because he made a terrible decision.

Like I said above, it's entirely possible that you, and MBP, could be on a scumteam together, since neither of your claims are verifiable. Say you're a Lord, and you snagged Vector/Nuke early on. You'd know whether she had a Covenbuddy (if that's even guaranteed) and if so could have converted them and used Witch as your falseclaim. Also, though Jim does know a lot about the Dreamwalker role, he could just as easily be either a Lord fakeclaiming a scum-mate's role to hide himself, or is a Cult Dreamwalker. Neither of you are clean, so don't act as though this is the case.

So... in the middle of this grand explanation for how me and Jim could still be Lords, you bother to mention Jim could also be a Slave. Why?

These arguments follow the same logic; neither contradict. You continue to spin the words of others against them, and try to discredit them by shit-slinging. If you're right about one thing though, it's that I'm thoroughly convinced you are Scum, and nothing you have done has suggested otherwise.

While the reasoning is sound, I'd still like to know why you're following this line of WIFOM rather than a different sort or none at all.

One of you or Azure needs to die today, Jim, and I'd rather go with someone I have reason to suspect than someone who's been entirely neutral due to inactivity. After that, we'll know how to move forward; even in the event that you're not a Lord (and the smaller chance that you're not a Slave), so long as we follow through with the Devil plan, we still take out Crown (thus preventing LYLO), and one of the remaining Lord Suspects of our choice (say AzureSepulchre), leaving us with the remainder to lynch the next day.

I don't like this. It's alright to plan, but this strikes me as chainlynching. "Okay guys, we'll just lynch and kill people in this order and everything will work out regardless of who flips what."

(since a Cult Leader having a Guardian Angel would be a real dick move on Meph's part, stacking things far in the Cult's favor)

Why didn't you consider this earlier?

We're going to be stuck on a very unpleasant tie if we don't resolve this, and that means we lose another Townie to the Cult, while the Devil Deal becomes an even greater crapshoot than it already is.

Yet you're not voting to extend. There's no semblance of agreement on anything and yet you're not voting to extend.

[Leafsnail]

I'm fine with offering the deal to MBP if he comes down and says he'll accept it.  I'll also make the deal with anyone else the town agrees on if you change your minds.

[Mephansteras]

The Scribe's Tally Sheet
Azure Sepulchre: Jim Groovester, Leafsnail, Toaster
Jim Groovester: ECrownOfFire, Max White, Solifuge
Bdthemag: JoshuaFH


Day has been Extended to ~5pm Pacific Friday

[Solifuge]

There's no semblance of agreement on anything and yet you're not voting to extend.

I voted to Extend once already. We each get more than one though, I take it? If so, I'd second another Extend, but it's already done. Too many people haven't been around to discuss our current tack.

Anyway, let it be said that I hate these huge, split-up quote posts; they're terrible to read, and worse to quote, re-split-up, and respond to in any easily legible way. Your questions are listed in the spoiler header, the relevant quotes within the spoiler, and the response below, to limit the size.

Spoiler: (IronyOwl) As far as I'm aware, Jim talks down the scum's competence every game period. Where are you getting this impression? (click to show/hide)

and talking down the Scum's competence is the same damn thing you try to do every game that you're Scum.

Prove it, asswipe, because that's not my meta.

If he actually does it in every game, perhaps that's all I'm seeing. My keenest memories of him have been in Wizards Duels and Paranormals where he has both been Scum, and downplayed the threat or played up the success of Town to lure people into a sense of security, until it was too late fot them to overpower the Scumteam.

Spoiler: (IronyOwl) Examples please. What makes you say this? (click to show/hide)

If my read on Crown's playstyle is correct, it IS an egregious bandwagon. He's trying to create a sense of doubt, by playing to our assumptions of his scumminess.

Just mentioned this a few posts up. See Here and Here, and consider how you, as a Cultist player, would use someone like Crown, whom everyone openly suspected as Cult, but hadn't bothered to lynch yet because their Leader was still at large? I'd play on their distrust of him, and direct him to sew dissent by causing town to second-guess their good lynches, or reaffirm their mislynches.

Spoiler: (IronyOwl) I get the feeling you're already cult and trying to head off suspicion with this- it just seems odd and completely out of the blue to say "Listen everyone, I'm a high-priority convert target, so I'm likely to be converted sometime in the future, so we really need to find the Lord." (click to show/hide)

Also, in regard to your earlier question of protection options, I'm a Priest with a Res, and thus a bit of a priority target for the Cult. Metagame suggests I'm likely to be an Unpious Priest, so my usefulness is limited (the chance for adding a SK to the mix does not behoove Scum), but I suspect I'm going to be high on their list of converts nevertheless. If they get me and make me raise a Cultist, that would tie up the lynch for two days (one for me, and one for my target). If we don't manage to bag the Lord before that, things could get bad very quickly.

I can't help your feelings, but that statement wasn't out of the blue. I was responding to Toaster asking who he should Protect near the start of today (can't find the post, and I'm in a hurry now). When we're trying to avoid guarding potential Lords from the Devil-Kill, and when my role could be used to really hurt chances of a Town victory by resing 1 Cultist (thus tying up lynches for 2 days), I suggested it. Who he protects is his prerogative.

Spoiler: (IronyOwl) Can witches not have a covenbuddy? What use is a lone mason? (click to show/hide)

Likely:
IronyOwl: If converted Vector/Nuke and learned she had no Covenbuddy, OR converted said Covenbuddy and falseclaiming.

If being masons are their only power, then they're not likely to be alone, true. I know Vector's habits, and she'd have been talkative as hell in a Mason Group, scum or no. You implied she said nothing, even flavor or silliness, when pressed about it. I believe you meant nothing important, but I do distrust this a bit.

Spoiler: (IronyOwl) MBP was confirmed as a Protector by Max, so he'd have to have converted Max as well. / I'd also have to be a VL with a guardian angel, which seems odd, or have converted MBP the doc, since Max confirmed him as a Protector. Unless there was really only one witch, that's too many conversions to get them all. (click to show/hide)

MBP: If converted a Guardian Angel OR concocted a detailed falseclaim.

Ah, I had a logical hole on my part. It's true; it's highly unlikely to have a Doctor/Guard, Max White the Fortune Teller, and a Lord on one team. Still, this got me thinking; the Cult need only have Max White the Fortune Teller, and Irony as any role, since Max could claim Irony was whatever he wanted, and he'd agree, no?


I'm going to have to wait on getting to the rest of this. I work again this evening, and still haven't eaten.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

I would accept the deal, since it is not against my goal. but i do have question about it, You get away with our souls once the actions are used, or since i would be the 3rd, you get away this very night. If you stand around until we use them, can they be used in the day, or only night phase? Answer those at least and i will make a decision

[ECrownofFire]

It's seven times more likely that he doesn't want to vote Azure Sepulchre because he's the Vampire Lord and hasn't gotten over his newb scum fear of voting his teammates and he's voting me because it's easy mislynch that everybody else agrees on. Why are you settling on the most expedient theory that gets me lynched than the one that's actually correct?

Sorry, I'm already proven impossible for being the Lord. Try again.

And yes, I'm aware that everyone thinks I'm scum. Go ahead and keep tunneling me, I'll just sit back and vote for who I think is the Lord. But do remember in all your theorizing and speculating that we have a maximum of two slaves right now.

[Jim Groovester]

These arguments follow the same logic; neither contradict.

They don't contradict but they're not provable either. I could just as easily say that ECrownofFire (ECF) is voting the way that's most directly advantageous for the scum because nobody's going to lynch him, and my argument would be just as valid as yours.

Which highlights a problem: You're making decisions based off of unverifiable conclusions. And for what? To see me lynched? That's unacceptable.

So this really has nothing to do with thinking he's the VL who needs the noose, so much as thinking he's a lurking piece of shit who deserves the noose.

I don't really think he's a piece of shit lurker who deserves the noose; it's obvious he needs a replace.

But it's arguably more dangerous to have a VL who's up for replacement than one who's putting himself out there, because the critical mechanic for the cult is being left unchallenged. So while everybody's busy tracking down other VL candidates, the vampires are silently gaining numbers and grinning from ear to ear about it.

He needs to be dealt with just as much as any VL candidate, and in just as timely a manner. He can't be put off because he's up for replace.

This is awesome, but the fact remains that you're vaguely poo-pooing others' reasoning while providing nothing of your own.

Well, sorry.

But if you haven't noticed, we've come to the exact same conclusion we were at before Solifuge told every to hold up so he could figure out a way to get me mislynched. I.E., lynch a VL candidate, take the Devil's deal and shoot the one who wasn't offered.

This has been completely pointless, except to put my neck in the noose. I mean, come on, he made a big speech about how terrible the Devil deal was and now he's changed his tune.

So you do like lists and edge cases justified with WIFOM, just only when they're your own?

I excluded myself because I know I'm not the VL. I know that my role is largely unverifiable, but that didn't stop me from trying everything to show that wasn't the case.

Why can't he just make terrible decisions, like Bdthemag?

He can do both!

I think I've made my opinion about his decision making clear well before Day 4, so that hasn't changed. But he's starting to smell a little scummy now.

Sorry, I'm already proven impossible for being the Lord. Try again.

No, genius.

You're not voting Azure Sepulchre because Azure Sepulchre is the VL, not you.

[ECrownofFire]

Sorry, I'm already proven impossible for being the Lord. Try again.

No, genius.

You're not voting Azure Sepulchre because Azure Sepulchre is the VL, not you.

Ah, Azure is the VL, of course! That explains everything!


You previously used "he" as referring to me, so I thought that you used "he" as still referring to me when it was actually referring to him.

Fuck pronouns.

Also, The Princess Bride is on right now with the wine scene

[Leafsnail]

I would accept the deal, since it is not against my goal. but i do have question about it, You get away with our souls once the actions are used, or since i would be the 3rd, you get away this very night. If you stand around until we use them, can they be used in the day, or only night phase? Answer those at least and i will make a decision

I'm not sure what you're asking.  You can use the kill immediately (and you should since you won't get a chance to use it otherwise) as CoF demonstrated last night.  You will be removed from game/ "killed" at the same time, yes.

[Solifuge]

Irony, before you respond to my above post, I realize that I mentally swapped names. It should have read:

Spoiler: (IronyOwl) MBP was confirmed as a Protector by Max, so he'd have to have converted Max as well. / I'd also have to be a VL with a guardian angel, which seems odd, or have converted MBP the doc, since Max confirmed him as a Protector. Unless there was really only one witch, that's too many conversions to get them all. (click to show/hide)

MBP: If converted a Guardian Angel OR concocted a detailed falseclaim.

Ah, I had a logical hole on my part. It's true; it's highly unlikely to have a Doctor/Guard, Max White the Fortune Teller, and MBP as a Lord on one team. Still, this got me thinking; the Cult need only have Max White the Fortune Teller, and Irony MBP as any role, since Max could claim Irony MBP was whatever he wanted, and he'd agree, no?

BDthemag, this is likely to be the last night you have to use your redirect. Do you intend to use it?

I ask because, if we have a well-structured plan going in to N4, your redirect could be used to lock down another potential Lord suspect, by redirecting to himself.

[Toaster]

Solifuge:  Explain this change to me, please:

The Devil's Deal Gambit is a terrible idea:
If we follow through with this Gambit, it would reduce the player count by 5... which is likely to bring us to LYLO tomorrow. We need any advantage in numbers we can get right now, and as many players alive as we can, while we work to bag the Lord.

Consider what would result if we had fucked up, and the kill-power was given to the Scum, especially a Vampire Slave? It would remove 4 players (including an otherwise hard-to-kill Knight from the game) giving them a huge boost toward majority, allow them to off the Town Player of their choice, AND allow the Vamp Lord to convert yet another player.

Speaking of the Devil Deal, MysteriousBluePuppet, I'm pretty certain that you're our Number 1 choice for accepting it. Your claimed role wins so long as IronyOwl survives, so you have little at stake by sacrificing yourself to kill AzureSepulchre, and keep Irony alive. If you accept, it both clears you, and pretty much clears IronyOwl (since a Cult Leader having a Guardian Angel would be a real dick move on Meph's part, stacking things far in the Cult's favor)

I urge players to not accept Leafsnail's Deal unless he offers it to whom we plan on. As such, Leafsnail, will you be planning to offer the choice to MBP, or someone else? And to your intended target, will you be killing AzureSepulchre/Jim (depending on who doesn't get lynched today)?

It went from terrible to having your support.   What changed?

Toaster, you say you're fine with a Jim lynch, but your vote isn't where your words are. Do you put that much stock in the vote of nigh-confirmed Scum?

Crown's vote has got me hesitant.  I'll certainly vote Jim to break a tie, though.


MBP:  Stop ignoring my question, please.


Everyone not voting:  What are you waiting for to vote?  This is BD, MBP, and Irony.  (Nor Azure, but he's not here.)

[Toaster]

So everyone wants to let the day end in a tie?

Jim Groovester.

[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

No, we never said such, and i dont like your tone, Toasty. Did not answer your question since it was quite unclear. If he get killed i lose, It's rather clear. Asked my question to the devil to check up if i could not protect Irony from having is soul taken, thus saving me and him while still getting the kill, That probably wont work from what i gather from is role so i can sacrifice myself if need be.

While you are there, any reason for the vote, Toasty? I admit Jim would also be my top pick, but it seemed a bit of a toss jsut to get someone killed.

[Toaster]

You said it was "possible."  That's different from "rather clear."  Make up your mind.


I've been saying Jim was scummy since Day 3.  Check your facts before you accuse.  In any case, he's a very possible lord, and a good choice of convert besides.