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[Vector]

Before I start:

We'll thank you for getting me boned just so you know...you have some explaining to do.

No, you got you boned.  I made a post, you reacted, and you boned yourself.  You don't get to pin this one on me, attractive as it may be.

Explanations pending.

[UltraValican]

Before I start:

We'll thank you for getting me boned just so you know...you have some explaining to do.

No, you got you boned.  I made a post, you reacted, and you boned yourself.  You don't get to pin this one on me, attractive as it may be.

Explanations pending.

Fair enough, any advice( I don't give a damn if your scum or not) on how to unbone myself?

[Vector]

Spoiler: Response to Kilakan (click to show/hide)

This is based on a player who has played a BM here before (before asking for replacement) copying the IC's question.  It stinks.

It requires no assumption whatsoever that they are in cahoots, simply that one player is riding on the other's coattails.

Ok so now your lying, what a scum move.  For the record I was in a BM about 9 months ago, that ended when 4/7 players were lurkers,  was not one of them, I never asked for a replacement, and both the scum were inactive, so it ended.  Gratz you pick on someone for being 'experienced' in a game they played once, a long time ago, that ended halfway through.

There is a real difference between lying and forgetting.  Nine months ago, wasn't it?

The gist of the statement is that you'd played here before, if briefly, and thus I thought you would have the knowledge necessary to pay attention to Groovester's question and coattail it.  I didn't want to misinform the town and make them think that you'd played all the way to the end of a BM, thus making them overly question your competence.  As such, I mistook the instance "a game ended early and Kilakan did not finish" for the instance "Kilikan asked for a replacement, and did not finish playing."

Effect on your play experience?

Basically identical, so far as I can tell.

Gratz, you caught me picking up on a minor detail, then using meta information to figure out whether I should discard or keep that detail.  Don't frame it as me picking on you for experience.  I picked on you for what you did.

As for responding to your allegations?  I asked a question at basically the same type someone else did, I didn't copy, I just didn't read the ninja post, attempt to read time stamps.

Okay.

breadbocks: You were in the last beginner game I played, and I've seen you play others, how do you consider yourself a beginner still, and what do you believe you need improvement at that would constitute you still being in a Beginner game?
 -If you were a doctor, how would you go about determining the most likely person to be targeted by the scum at night, so you might best protect them?

It took you more than seven minutes to type this post, I see.  Next time I'll assume that you're a little bit slow, hey?

There is no reason why I should have assumed that you were ninja'd.  My allegations, though minor, were entirely valid.

You are pretty active on jumping on the slightly less nooby character, who brought up suspicions on someone who seems happy to hide under you shadow, then you attack someone else who makes a good point about the same person, seems like you are freinding and defending the other scum who's on his way to being lynched.

You promoted rapid-fire questioning, back and forth, with someone; I thought the experience you'd talked about, away from B12, was on forums.  Someone with your reputed experience on forums should have known far better than that.

A lot of your questions looked very suspect under the preconception I had--that you were clear on which ICs could have which alignment.  I'm sure you can see why my analysis fell the way it did.  Think about it a little, please.

I made one post here after UltraValican exploded.  I'll explain about my reasoning for "softballing" him soon, but for now I'll just say that I went off to work on a housing search after that; I thought there would be a lot more time before the inevitable bandwagon, which strongly affected my choices.

Sorry for run on sentences, I'll try and spread everything out like you.  If I want to explain my thoughts in a single paragraph, I think I'm allowed to in the English language.

Yes, of course!  It's a free country!  Silly me!  Eagles and apple pie

In more seriousness, I can barely read what you write because you use so goddamned many commas.  Now, this is up to you.  You may write however you like.  You can use exclamation points rather than i's.  You can do morse code made of tabs, the return key, and the space tab.

But I'm going to continue to tell you to make yourself more legible or face my annoyance, because I am your IC and being legible is part of playing this game well.

For all the flaws I've had so far, my previous mafia experience involves real-life mafia games, sitting at a table, so much of my tactics comes from watching facial responses, not planning out questions in advance via typing.

This explains a hell of a lot.  Thank you--that's every allegation cleared.

Unvote.

You seem to have an awful high opinion of yourself, yet at another point claim that you haven't played in a long time and need to play a BM to practice.  So either keep your self flattering ways out of here, or prove it.  Use some of those awesome player skills and actually ask me some questions, juxtaposed to just pointing out minor flaws in my plan, and claiming I must be a mastermind of decit.

I have a high opinion of myself because I'm somewhat better than okay at this game.  I also have hardly played for a year.  These are both true things.  I don't really need to play a BM to practice, but it's nice to start out this current play run here, rather than in Paranormal or Kill Webadict Now.  That was the entire meaning behind my comment about the BM.  I do not, in any way, mean to imply that anyone should go easy on me.  I will continue to joke around about being spiffy, amazing, and just generally gorgeous.

You have a model of how a good player plays.  I have a model of how a good player plays.  My model appears to contain your model, but be expanded from it, so that I can understand why other methodologies might be helpful.  I will explain my early-game maneuvers once I'm done replying to this little squadron of posts.

Also, I never claimed you were a mastermind of deceit.  Now who's lying?

Oh wait, not you.  Because I know the difference between a lie and butthurt hyperbole.

Spoiler: Response to Max White (click to show/hide)

This is based on a player who has played a BM here before (before asking for replacement) copying the IC's question.  It stinks.

It requires no assumption whatsoever that they are in cahoots, simply that one player is riding on the other's coattails.

Now in the original quote, you didn't just say he was copying the IC, you said he was buddying.

Notice patterns in people copying/mirroring others.  This is a subtle form of buddying I call "emotional alignment."  In case you're wondering about this, I read in a book that autistic kids don't realize that they should copy their friends' opinions in order to get along with them.  Identify themselves as the same team, as it were.  So: buddying.

Your trying to change the meaning of your words, hoping people will forget the original context. Scummy.

. . . I thought he was copying the IC's question in order to slide himself onto the IC's side, which I thought was town.  Buddying.  Buddying is when scum sidle up to townies.  It doesn't require both participants to be scum.

Exactly the same thing I said in both quotations.

So we are meant to sit and watch you build a case, voting for another player, and even get some support, but it doesn’t count for anything until you specifically say you are ' lynch-prepped'? Bullshit. When you say something you mean it, that's why there is no edit button. Trying to downplay your attack because it has become incriminating to yourself in a scum move.

You seriously think I was trying to lynch him with that post--the very first of the game?  What's your damage?

I ran into the thread, jumped on the first scumtell I saw, and built a case in order to apply pressure.  I voted the person in question.  What, do we not vote during RVS now?  Do we not vote the person we're questioning?

Make no mistake, I meant everything I said.  Kilakan looked scummy as hell.  I received new information (the goal of an attack, in case you were wondering) and he looked less scummy.  Then he proceeded to not look scummy at all.  That's the way it works when you attack for information and happen to get the wrong guy.  Often it takes more time than this, but this is good for now.

Furthermore, don't blame me for that the "support" I got--i.e. opportunistic bandwagoners, some of the response I was trying to draw out if I didn't manage to strike scum!  It's not like I encouraged them.  I even warned them about the trap I was laying, but they fell in it anyway.

So, uh.  What's this downplaying?  You need to learn the difference between assault and attempted murder, bucko.

Great little scum tactic here. Not addressing the point. I pointed out there was a double standard here, and you go off on something less related. If you were scum hunting, you would have called both posts, but you chose to only point out the player who you wanted to lynch.

I'll remind myself, next time, to call out every single scummy thing that anyone does immediately, never allow scum to relax and think that they're okay so that I can check for particular behaviors, never set traps for people and nudge them in.  I'll make it totally clear for everyone exactly what I'm doing at all times.  Furthermore, I'll never do anything but ask questions until I'm ready to lynch someone.  Damn, I'm glad that I chose to play in this game, because the ICs are so smart, and there's so many of them to educate little old me.

Hint: You're being a dumbass.

I'm not going to say how many people I've caught based on things like changing the way they type; often, run-ons fit with fear, and so on, and so forth.  It's a valid tactic.  But if you want to know, "Pandar, twice" is part of that group of people.

And your most likely not going to say how many townies you have lynched like that either.

Zero, so far as I recall.  It's always been part of a larger case.

I actually don't lynch that many townies.

Since when did I say Jim was scum?

Do you know something I don't?

Why you implied it in your first point. Here we have denying actions, trying to say you never inferred something. Scummy.

Why, I never did.  Here we have accusations of me doing something I clearly never did--unless someone else wants to help Max White out?  Scummy.

No, sorry.  Noobish and stupid.

You want a lolly pop? If your not up to scratch, don't IC, otherwise keep your head in the game. Being rusty is no excuse for sloppy work, especially when that sloppy work shows yourself to be scum.

Yup.  Cherry would be nice.

You're not doing a very good job of "demonstrating me as scum," given my theoretical sloppy work.  Mostly, you look like you're chasing your tail.

I suppose I should have said "playing off of Max White's question."  I meant "working with the material provided, perhaps unintentionally, by Max White."  My mistake.

Should have, but didn't. Why didn't you?

I was pretty tired.

We hunt scum, expect interesting answers from questions asked by honest people. This looks like nothing more than another attempt to tunnel kilakan.

Is there some reason why you take issue with my attacking him?

I am asking a question of him--the question everyone should be asking everyone.  "Are you scum, bucko?"  It just has an exclamation point, rather than a question mark, at the end.  That's something you should be able to see by now.

This is good. This is REALY good. Everybody, take note of this. I'm keeping my quote in here for this one.
This is scum splitting up quotes to take them out of context, and make the scum hunter look bad. Vector just admitted she worded her question very badly, but then takes part of the quote were I point this out and tries to change the context. I was defending my right to ask questions, and she tries to infer I have a problem with attacking him. This is a scum move if you ever saw one.

So now their is a relationship between kilakan and myself showing that we are scum, bringing the total to three now? Kilakan, Jim and Myself? So do you honestly think that in your first post you managed to find all three scum players, Vector? When a player asked a good question, and another gives a scumm answer, that does not mean the first player must have been conspiring with the other. What sort of half baked reasoning is that? We hunt scum, expect interesting answers from questions asked by honest people. This looks like nothing more than another attempt to tunnel kilakan.

You were defending your right to ask questions?  Wow, that really didn't come out very clearly there.

The context was aggressive assumptions about my intentions, i.e. that all three of you were scum.  Then you posit that this is nothing more than another attempt to tunnel Kilakan.  For some reason, you have a problem with me tunneling Kilakan.

So what is it?  That I didn't lay out my attacks in an even-handed way?  That you can continue to say that I'm trying to lynch him, and that's pretty fun?  That I didn't ask any questions with question marks at the end?  For some reason, you got really excited about my attack on him.  I'm just trying to figure out why.  You know, why really, not "hurr durr because you didn't follow the pretty scunt-humming rubric I've got in my head."

Because with this emotional response, I figured it had to be something.

But nah, I think you're just a dumb townie attacking what it doesn't understand.  That's okay.  You'll figure it out eventually.

That's right, I didn't ask any questions and I largely focused on one person, with a couple of statements on another.  Why is that an issue?

Attempting to railroad a player into being lynched, without even looking at other players. Sounds like scum.

I'm not railroading him into being lynched.  There's a reason why I said I'd consider unvoting after he replied.

Furthermore, it's fairly clear that I looked at other players, given that I had an FoS on you.  Or perhaps that doesn't count anymore.

And, you know, the more you spread out pressure, the less any one individual feels.  If you want good data, you need good pressure.

Then why aren't you voting me?

Because I only get one vote at a time, if I had a second, it would be on you.

... You said it was the single scummiest action in the game.  I guess you're just saving me for later, once you've flushed out the partner I don't have?  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Your trying to implement a tactic that is designed to force your opponent into making a move. Implying you know who your opponents are? You sounds like scum trying to force so much pressure onto a new player, that they crack and act like scum, despite being a townie. Your interrogating until you get a false confession.

Uh... my attack is based on the idea that any move the scum team makes is a bad move, and that I just need to be able to interpret it as such.  Yeah, I know the basic idea of who my opponents are--whoever got the scum roles in their PMs (for those watching at home, no, I don't actually have the names or something).  I'm pretty intimately familiar with that role and its associated hangups.  I'm fairly confident that my tactics will work, better and better as I polish them through the years.

And now, as your IC, I will say something:

I've cracked townies before, accidentally--as town.  It usually happened by harassing them for 6 or more pages and analyzing every single thing they posted in the worst possible light.  I've also cracked as town.  A lot.

Never took so little as a single post.  You cannot make that allegation without a hell of a lot more material to work with.

This has just been advice, rather than actively pursuing scum tells. Your trying to help he's scum game.

I gave him an opportunity to shape up or ship out.  Often, in BMs (or to noobs in other games), when someone has been just exploding with scumtells I try to give them advice.  Scum often find themselves incapable of taking this advice.  The beginner townies catch on soon enough.

I also played "softly" in order to get reactions from everyone else.  As I said--making material.

More in a minute.

[Vector]

So that was also a half ass attempt at making me look like scum for what amounts to nothing.

. . . I FoS'd you.

Why are you so fucking jumpy?  Yeah, I didn't get much out of the FoS.  So what?  I pointed out something I thought was a bit off; it turned out that all was clear.  Now you're hyperventilating about me "trying to lynch Kilakan" and "trying to make you look like scum."

Cool it.

@ Max White, why are you so sure that vectors scum?

She isn't hunting, she is just focused on lynching a single player, with what amounts to nothing.

. . . I focused on attacking a single player, and every one of my allegations turned out to be cleared.  That is how hunting works.

One more time.  I posted an attack, waited for a response, and unvoted.


Responses to UltraValican in the next post.

[Vector]

Okay, I finally see what you getting at here, and  juging by your agument it is perfectly understandable why going behind what vector says seems scummy, I would vote vector but...theres one..teensy..problem..if I do that ill end up as dead doorstop, and im not to fond of dieing in the first round but..what the hell its just a game in

"I would bandwagon, but I'd die?"

Really?

And here I was thinking you'd voted me because... oh, right.

The reason I'm voting vector is to prove to everyone that im am not scum, which now is a top priorty considering theres going to be a noose around my neck by the time  the sun rises in ice cream land. I denounce any instance of agreeing with him.

Yeah, that's not contradictory at all.

I have very little and what little evidence I do have dosn't realy matter since every thing I've said and done has led to a quest to smite me.

You're playing the victim.  Your emotional appeals are foul.

You also know that people who are smote are generally, you know, sinners... right?  Your word choice looks pretty bad, here.

@ Vector, how much fun are you having watching me fall into your little alignment trap and get your ass out here.

I warned you about it and you pushed yourself in.  You even call it the "alignment trap," thus implying that you fell in based on alignment.

This is somewhat pathetic.

I came back as soon as I could.  I had important things to do, like making sure I have somewhere to live in August.

Even at the begining of the game I may have had a slight dispostion against kikilan, i am still slightly suspicious of him but not as much as vector

There was no implication that you were ever suspicious of me until Max White counter-attacked.  There was no implication that you were suspicious of Kilakan until I attacked.

I feel that vector may have picked up on my disposition against kiklan and used it to drive a mislynch. Why?

He isn't dead.  There is no "mislynch" that has been driven, and Kilakan's alignment has not yet been revealed.

Almost all of the players agree that ive been sucking up to the ICs, so vector took advantage of this and puposly made the post seem like it was levying against kikilan, to make me seem like i was all to eager to jump on the bandwagon i hopes to drive a mislynch.

I attacked Kilakan, yes.  There is no "purposely made it seem," here.  I, in fact, attacked Kilakan all by myself.  You, in fact...

Unvote MaxWhite
kikilan What did you think of vectors nice little tutorial on mafia, and  particularly his tone on suggesting that you might be of an alignment that wants to hinder the town(scum basically)?

@every one who is not an IC or kikilan:(can i direct a question at everyone?) on a scale of one to ten how suspicious would you be of someone who was trying to get one of our valuble ICs lynched?

Bandwagoned.  Passively.  While asking

a. what my target thought of my attack and whether I was being too aggressive.

b. whether or not we should all have a party and go kill Kilakan.

You are responsible for your own behavior, scumbucket.  You chose to bandwagon after I warned against it.  I played softly for you and didn't immediately rip you to shreds, even giving you advice--you continued to vote-hop for inane reasons.  You drove your own mislynch.  If this is a result of psychological weakness, that weakness is your own.

other than that I have no real thoughts on the other players at the moment besides several crackpot theorys

Better to put this out there than apply all this bullshit.

and if the above accusation isn't scumhunting you may need to give me a definition of what that is

Go reread Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible.

that only reason I've done minimum scum be because im not playing mafia right  now, I'm playing UltraValican v.s everybody else

I seem to remember a part of the game where no one was attacking you and I was, in fact, giving you extra leeway--which you wasted by hopping from one bandwagon to another, after you'd already been told to quit it.


Also, I'm a girl.

[Vector]

I'm done for now, but a couple of housecleaning things before I go sleep.

Fair enough, any advice( I don't give a damn if your scum or not) on how to unbone myself?

Reread the thread.  Stop being so fucking jumpy.  Ask some questions of people.  Think seriously about whether or not someone is lying.

Reread Dakarian's Scumhunting Bible, five times if you have to, and then try to follow what it says.

Oh, and keep on improving your punctuation.  It actually helps a lot.


I'll be doing a thread reread tomorrow to get a fuller picture of this entire mess.  For those who are wondering why I'm not voting UltraValican, I'll just say that there's no point in putting my vote on someone who's already been "hammered," and who I'm starting to think/hope is just a really, really bad player.  Like ExKirby.  He never jumped out of his pants or OMGUSed when he got voted, he deflated.  He engages in conspiracy theories and jokes about a "list of advice for next time."  All these little things that I see newbie town doing all the time, but don't see scum ever falling into.  Scum have their own mistakes.

Not that he shouldn't be lynched just for precedent reasons (because no one who admits to being scum gets to stay), but I figured I'd make my opinion known.

Anyway, more tomorrow.


For now, I want a prod on Powder Miner.  It's been more than 24 hours.  Yeah, weekends don't count, but he wasn't here on Friday, either.  It's high time for him to show up.

[Max White]

. . . I thought he was copying the IC's question in order to slide himself onto the IC's side, which I thought was town.  Buddying.  Buddying is when scum sidle up to townies.  It doesn't require both participants to be scum.

Exactly the same thing I said in both quotations

And you think copying somebody that is there to be a good example is scummy?

You seriously think I was trying to lynch him with that post--the very first of the game?  What's your damage?

I ran into the thread, jumped on the first scumtell I saw, and built a case in order to apply pressure.  I voted the person in question.  What, do we not vote during RVS now?  Do we not vote the person we're questioning?

Questioning? I sure didn't see any questions. Just the largest case built against another player so far. If that was questioning, you took it to an extreme far beyond anybody else, including Jim, another IC. That was no questioning, that was a case.

Make no mistake, I meant everything I said.  Kilakan looked scummy as hell.  I received new information (the goal of an attack, in case you were wondering) and he looked less scummy.  Then he proceeded to not look scummy at all.  That's the way it works when you attack for information and happen to get the wrong guy.  Often it takes more time than this, but this is good for now.

Yea, you unvoted. After some pressure was put on you. In fact you were so late to unvote that it was in the very post I am quoting that you finally did unvote. I can't predict what you are going to do, so unvoting is hardy justification for anything beforehand.

Furthermore, don't blame me for that the "support" I got--i.e. opportunistic bandwagoners, some of the response I was trying to draw out if I didn't manage to strike scum!  It's not like I encouraged them.  I even warned them about the trap I was laying, but they fell in it anyway.

I'm blaming the bandwagoners for their bandwagoning. Thus where my vote is.

So, uh.  What's this downplaying?  You need to learn the difference between assault and attempted murder, bucko.

So that's your excuse? You weren’t trying to vote anybody out, you were just in it for shits and giggles. Well that is some what unprovable.

I'll remind myself, next time, to call out every single scummy thing that anyone does immediately, never allow scum to relax and think that they're okay so that I can check for particular behaviors, never set traps for people and nudge them in.  I'll make it totally clear for everyone exactly what I'm doing at all times.  Furthermore, I'll never do anything but ask questions until I'm ready to lynch someone.  Damn, I'm glad that I chose to play in this game, because the ICs are so smart, and there's so many of them to educate little old me.

I even warned them about the trap I was laying, but they fell in it anyway.

I don't follow. Your contradicting yourself.

I was pretty tired.

So you were in a state where you were more likely to say something stupid to reveal yourself as scum, and when you did, you blame being tired? Being tired is hardly any excuse. Nobody forced you to play. If your in a state of mind where a slip of the tongue might give yourself away, it isn;t my fault.

I'm not railroading him into being lynched.  There's a reason why I said I'd consider unvoting after he replied.

So if things go well, you keep up the attack, and if things go badly you lay off. Problem is that things went badly either way. If your mafia then things seem to have gone very badly, and plenty of reason to lay off. Saying that hardly covers your ass.

Furthermore, it's fairly clear that I looked at other players, given that I had an FoS on you.  Or perhaps that doesn't count anymore.

You put FoS on the guy who you linked to your target. Putting FoS on me served to help your case against Kilakan.

... You said it was the single scummiest action in the game.  I guess you're just saving me for later, once you've flushed out the partner I don't have?  Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Your still an IC, and I'm still looking for tips and hints. I would prefer to milk you for all your worth. Thus why I was reluctant to go into any of this. If you get lynched for day, we just lost a lot of good advice first day, even if you are scum. Not good taking the context of the game into account.

Uh... my attack is based on the idea that any move the scum team makes is a bad move, and that I just need to be able to interpret it as such.  Yeah, I know the basic idea of who my opponents are--whoever got the scum roles in their PMs (for those watching at home, no, I don't actually have the names or something).  I'm pretty intimately familiar with that role and its associated hangups.  I'm fairly confident that my tactics will work, better and better as I polish them through the years.

If your looking to interpret moves in a  negative way, your going to start seeing scum moves where there are none. Anything can be scummish if you use WIFOM enough.

And now, as your IC, I will say something:

I've cracked townies before, accidentally--as town.  It usually happened by harassing them for 6 or more pages and analyzing every single thing they posted in the worst possible light.  I've also cracked as town.  A lot.

Never took so little as a single post.  You cannot make that allegation without a hell of a lot more material to work with.

Ok, so against the players you played against it took a lot of effort to crack a townie. Were these players thick skinned, experienced players, who were on a similar skill level to yourself, or new players? I mean have you seen the beginners vengeful? It took a page or two to have me looking like scum, despite being a townie.

I gave him an opportunity to shape up or ship out.  Often, in BMs (or to noobs in other games), when someone has been just exploding with scumtells I try to give them advice.  Scum often find themselves incapable of taking this advice.  The beginner townies catch on soon enough.

I also played "softly" in order to get reactions from everyone else.  As I said--making material.[/spoiler]
Softly...

I ran into the thread, jumped on the first scumtell I saw, and built a case in order to apply pressure.

Yes, very soft.

Folks should listen to Jim and feel good about themselves, because, er, I am a rather nasty player and occasionally forget people need positive feedback >_>  I'll try to be nicer, since this is a failing of myself as an IC.

Nice and easy and soft.

. . . I FoS'd you.

Why are you so fucking jumpy?  Yeah, I didn't get much out of the FoS.  So what?  I pointed out something I thought was a bit off; it turned out that all was clear.  Now you're hyperventilating about me "trying to lynch Kilakan" and "trying to make you look like scum."

Cool it.

If you haven’t noticed, I like to give full answers.

And I think the fact that you totally ignored my FoS on you is pretty annoying.  I'd like it if you addressed that at some point, if only by saying "noted."

I was just giving you what you wanted. I couldn't care less about your FoS, and figured it's two measly points were some what feeble, enough so that I couldn't care, but you pushed for a reply. Then, when you got one, I'm suddenly 'jumpy'? You wanted me to say something to incriminate myself, then when I didn't, you decided to make something up.

[Max White]

EDIT: Arg, messed up those quotes. Knew I would sooner or later. Allow me to amend.

I gave him an opportunity to shape up or ship out.  Often, in BMs (or to noobs in other games), when someone has been just exploding with scumtells I try to give them advice.  Scum often find themselves incapable of taking this advice.  The beginner townies catch on soon enough.

I also played "softly" in order to get reactions from everyone else.  As I said--making material.

Softly...

I ran into the thread, jumped on the first scumtell I saw, and built a case in order to apply pressure.

Yes, very soft.

Folks should listen to Jim and feel good about themselves, because, er, I am a rather nasty player and occasionally forget people need positive feedback >_>  I'll try to be nicer, since this is a failing of myself as an IC.

Nice and easy and soft.

. . . I FoS'd you.

Why are you so fucking jumpy?  Yeah, I didn't get much out of the FoS.  So what?  I pointed out something I thought was a bit off; it turned out that all was clear.  Now you're hyperventilating about me "trying to lynch Kilakan" and "trying to make you look like scum."

Cool it.

If you haven’t noticed, I like to give full answers.

And I think the fact that you totally ignored my FoS on you is pretty annoying.  I'd like it if you addressed that at some point, if only by saying "noted."

I was just giving you what you wanted. I couldn't care less about your FoS, and figured it's two measly points were some what feeble, enough so that I couldn't care, but you pushed for a reply. Then, when you got one, I'm suddenly 'jumpy'? You wanted me to say something to incriminate myself, then when I didn't, you decided to make something up.

[Jim Groovester]

I leave here for a couple hours and then everybody starts talking about Vector's penis.

I can't leave anybody here unsupervised, can I?

You have a model of how a good player plays.  I have a model of how a good player plays.

Yep. Me!

I'll be doing a thread reread tomorrow to get a fuller picture of this entire mess.  For those who are wondering why I'm not voting UltraValican, I'll just say that there's no point in putting my vote on someone who's already been "hammered," and who I'm starting to think/hope is just a really, really bad player.

I don't approve.

Your vote should always be where your suspicions lie, regardless of whether or not a player's been hammered already. It's a cowardly move not to.

However, you've already stated that you don't think he's scum, which is something I don't have a problem with.


Max White, you're tunneling. Remember when I warned you about it? You might try listening, instead of ignoring me and going off to do the exact thing I warned you against.

You're giving Vector a hard time for no good reason. Not that I don't think Vector can handle it, she can, but it's a complete waste of time for you to do this.

So I've got to ask: Why did you ignore me and go against my advice and decide that tunneling Vector was really the smartest thing to do? I am the IC. I do not like being ignored.

If you're going to keep up this attack, you better justify every accusation you've made with evidence. I don't want your suppositions about Vector's motives, which are basically complete bullshit. I want posts, and the ones you link better make it clear to everyone exactly what your accusations are and where they're coming from.

I think you'll find this difficult, and that means your attack amounts to nothing. Forcing a baseless attack is a scummy thing to do, and your time would be better spent looking elsewhere, or for more effective evidence.

...This is exactly why I hate walls of text. They completely obfuscate whatever argument you have, and you and your target get so completely absorbed into sniping each other into worthless line by line arguments that nobody can or wants to follow. It's the most demanding method to scumhunt but it's one of the least effective. Don't do them. They're stupid. Always focus on the most effective and damning evidence. Always. Your argument will be vastly more convincing because other players don't have to wade through metric tons of worthless argumentation to see your points.

[Max White]

Since many of you are going to have no idea what to do and will mangle scumhunting in just about every possible way, it does you no good to hold back. So be bold, and just do the best you can. Ask lots of questions, try to get a good feel for how the game is played. I'll be there to help you when you go wrong.

Oh Jim, I'm so confused . Ok, change of tact. I'm going to get back onto what I was looking at before Vector showed up then. Putting Vector into the 'to do' basket.

Be back after rereading the thread.

[Jim Groovester]

Exactly. That's exactly what I'm doing.

Good on you for being bold, but you're also (mostly) wrong, and it's my job to tell you when that happens.

You've still got some (some) stuff worth looking at about Vector, but is taking her posts line by line and saying everything she's doing is scummy the way to do it? No. It's not. That's a waste of your time, and it ruins your case.

Focus and press on your most effective points. Calling Vector scum because she unvoted late is not an example of effective evidence.

Fair enough, any advice( I don't give a damn if your scum or not) on how to unbone myself?

It's never too late to start scumhunting. A real effort at scumhunting, not just trying to save your skin. If you make a real effort at scumhunting, you'll find that all your votes will magically disappear.

The reason this is, is because scumhunting is the one and only way to look like town. One and only. Isn't it convenient how the one and only way to look like town is also the best way to look for scum? Amazing how these things work. It's like we thought this through.

Also, listen to Think0028. Never give up. Giving up gives everybody no reason to reconsider their votes. Of course, not giving up isn't going to instantly do that either, but it certainly helps.

[Vector]

Keeping my response for Max White because it is full of IC-goodness.

IC is pronounced icy, by the way.  Think of this post like ice cream.  It is so chill.  So sweet.

And you think copying somebody that is there to be a good example is scummy?

Down to the very question asked--not verbatim, but close enough?  Yeah, I generally consider that to be a scumtell.  In this instance I'm dropping it because the other evidence has become totally inconclusive, and that tell alone is no longer an acceptable voting offense.

Kind of like if I went around everywhere copying Webadict.  He isn't "there to be a good example" in quite the same way, but if I were going to copy someone and have an excuse for doing so, I'd copy him.  And, hopefully, I'd get in trouble for it.

Questioning? I sure didn't see any questions. Just the largest case built against another player so far. If that was questioning, you took it to an extreme far beyond anybody else, including Jim, another IC. That was no questioning, that was a case.

... I should explain myself.

In higher-powered games, very frequently part of the RVS will involve grabbing some poor sap who has done something vaguely scummy and beating the crap out of them to see what happens; usually, the "beating the crap out of them" stage is pretty short.  Some other people drop random scumtells (Solifuge, I am looking at you); others break the usual protocol and just call the town to lynch a particular person, straight up.  Reaction-testing, in a word.  In this instance, I thought I had a lot of material to work with.  If you let anyone onto it while you're doing it, it doesn't work--and it pretty much only works during RVS.

Yes, that was "questioning," because I wasn't sure about him.  I acted sure about him in order to become sure about him... mafia has some intricacies like that.  Questioning in that it was focused information-seeking behavior, guided by internal lack of knowledge, not in that it contained statements ending with question marks.  A case in that it was an analysis of a large body of behavior, not in that it was a lynch attempt.  Damn this English language.

And yes, I take these things to extremes.  If you remember from the thread, before the game started, there's a reason why "House Vector" is known for being an extremely aggressive and risky style across the board.  This is what it looks like, though it has developed a little bit since I dropped out of school.

Make no mistake, I meant everything I said.  Kilakan looked scummy as hell.  I received new information (the goal of an attack, in case you were wondering) and he looked less scummy.  Then he proceeded to not look scummy at all.  That's the way it works when you attack for information and happen to get the wrong guy.  Often it takes more time than this, but this is good for now.

Yea, you unvoted. After some pressure was put on you. In fact you were so late to unvote that it was in the very post I am quoting that you finally did unvote. I can't predict what you are going to do, so unvoting is hardy justification for anything beforehand.

That quotation says nothing about voting or unvoting.  The quotation you quoted explains that I was not attempting to lynch Kilakan.  I do not understand why you have suddenly started talking about my unvote, or lack thereof, as justification for your hyperbole.

Furthermore, don't blame me for that the "support" I got--i.e. opportunistic bandwagoners, some of the response I was trying to draw out if I didn't manage to strike scum!  It's not like I encouraged them.  I even warned them about the trap I was laying, but they fell in it anyway.

I'm blaming the bandwagoners for their bandwagoning. Thus where my vote is.

The quotation in question has to do with whether or not I had an intent to lynch, and whether bandwagoners jumping on my vote can refer to my intentions.  Please stop bending the facts.

So, uh.  What's this downplaying?  You need to learn the difference between assault and attempted murder, bucko.

So that's your excuse? You weren’t trying to vote anybody out, you were just in it for shits and giggles. Well that is some what unprovable.

I don't see why I need an "excuse" for a post which you magically decided was a lynch attempt.

I was not in it for shits and giggles.  I was also not in it for a lynch.  There is space between fucking around and lynching.

I'll remind myself, next time, to call out every single scummy thing that anyone does immediately, never allow scum to relax and think that they're okay so that I can check for particular behaviors, never set traps for people and nudge them in.  I'll make it totally clear for everyone exactly what I'm doing at all times.  Furthermore, I'll never do anything but ask questions until I'm ready to lynch someone.  Damn, I'm glad that I chose to play in this game, because the ICs are so smart, and there's so many of them to educate little old me.

I even warned them about the trap I was laying, but they fell in it anyway.

I don't follow. Your contradicting yourself.

I warned them about one part of one trap.  It's not like I warned them about all the traps that might have confused them.  That would've just been no fun.

Above, I outlined an extreme behavior, as explained through bolded type.  The fact that I occasionally agreed with that behavior does not mean that, in not adhering to its exact opposite, I was contradicting my general point.

I was pretty tired.

So you were in a state where you were more likely to say something stupid to reveal yourself as scum, and when you did, you blame being tired? Being tired is hardly any excuse. Nobody forced you to play. If your in a state of mind where a slip of the tongue might give yourself away, it isn;t my fault.

You asked why, and so I told you why.  I posted while tired because I was excited about playing this game and I wanted to make sure I did a good job as an IC--that I got out there and gave a good example of an attack, so that folks would have a model.  The last time I IC'd, by the way, my team lost and I was blamed.  I really want to make sure that that doesn't happen this time.

I never said it was your fault.  Stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm not railroading him into being lynched.  There's a reason why I said I'd consider unvoting after he replied.

So if things go well, you keep up the attack, and if things go badly you lay off. Problem is that things went badly either way. If your mafia then things seem to have gone very badly, and plenty of reason to lay off. Saying that hardly covers your ass.

No, things went well either way.  If I find scum, I win.  If my case is cleared and I get a good townie vibe from whomever, I also win.  If my case isn't cleared and I have lots of data from other people, I still win.  No matter what, I get what I want.

If my case weren't cleared and I had no data from other people, I wouldn't be ICing.

You put FoS on the guy who you linked to your target. Putting FoS on me served to help your case against Kilakan.

Not really.  I don't see how it made my case on him stronger at all.  It's not like I said "Welllll, if there weren't this thing from Max, I'd unvote you!"

As far as I can tell, it just served to piss you off.  That ended up being helpful, but it's taken a while.

Uh... my attack is based on the idea that any move the scum team makes is a bad move, and that I just need to be able to interpret it as such.  Yeah, I know the basic idea of who my opponents are--whoever got the scum roles in their PMs (for those watching at home, no, I don't actually have the names or something).  I'm pretty intimately familiar with that role and its associated hangups.  I'm fairly confident that my tactics will work, better and better as I polish them through the years.

If your looking to interpret moves in a  negative way, your going to start seeing scum moves where there are none. Anything can be scummish if you use WIFOM enough.

Well, lookie here... isn't that exactly what can be applied to your entire argument against me?  Step back and take a look for about two minutes before you restart the attack.

Seriously, is there some reason why you're trying to teach me how to play?  I didn't say "interpret negatively," I said "is bad for scum."  The scum have to act, and that is bad for scum, because with every word they throw out there's a better probability that I catch them.

And with every word that you throw out, you look like more and more of a tunneling dumbass.

Ok, so against the players you played against it took a lot of effort to crack a townie. Were these players thick skinned, experienced players, who were on a similar skill level to yourself, or new players? I mean have you seen the beginners vengeful? It took a page or two to have me looking like scum, despite being a townie.

You seem to not understand the meaning of "cracking a townie" in this case.  Cracking a townie means that they'll basically do anything to make it stop, because you're psychologically assaulting them.  It's something I try really hard not to do.  It isn't "make them look like scum," it's "make them feel cornered and desperate."  It isn't that hard to do to most people, either, especially if they're impatient.  It just takes a long time.

And yes, because I was a beginner when I did it, they were new players.  So was I.  Check out BMII, if you like.  Or, if you want to see me being cracked (by Free Beer), check out NSBMI.  It takes a long time to crack a beginner and longer time to crack most skilled players.

I gave him an opportunity to shape up or ship out.  Often, in BMs (or to noobs in other games), when someone has been just exploding with scumtells I try to give them advice.  Scum often find themselves incapable of taking this advice.  The beginner townies catch on soon enough.

I also played "softly" in order to get reactions from everyone else.  As I said--making material.

Softly...

I ran into the thread, jumped on the first scumtell I saw, and built a case in order to apply pressure.

Yes, very soft.

Folks should listen to Jim and feel good about themselves, because, er, I am a rather nasty player and occasionally forget people need positive feedback >_>  I'll try to be nicer, since this is a failing of myself as an IC.

Nice and easy and soft.

I already explained why I don't apply equal pressure to everyone, and why I thought I would get particular advantages out of playing more gently in UltraValican's direction.  As such, I am not rehashing those explanations.  Just because my usual description might include the words "flaming asshole" doesn't mean that, in not playing to type at all times, I am lying.

I was just giving you what you wanted. I couldn't care less about your FoS, and figured it's two measly points were some what feeble, enough so that I couldn't care, but you pushed for a reply. Then, when you got one, I'm suddenly 'jumpy'? You wanted me to say something to incriminate myself, then when I didn't, you decided to make something up.

I wanted you to reply.  This is perfectly reasonable.

Do you know what the Org Theory of Scummitude is?  It's that if you make an accusation and someone ignores it, it's actually true.  I've actually used it to find multiple trolls online.  It doesn't just work in Mafia.  As such, it's important to me to try really hard to get an answer, instead of just letting people hop out of town.  False positives in the OToS are really, really bad and end up being difficult to dig your way out of.

So I could have gone with that, but seeing as it was just a little FoS, I figured I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.

You're sitting here like a rabbit on crack blowing everything I say out of proportion, reading extremes into my statements, looking for contradictions that aren't there, and ... get this... when I accuse you of something, correct or not, you make a big show about how I want you to say something to incriminate yourself and turn to making things up when I can't find something.

Look at your posts for just five minutes and see for yourself just how you come off.  See if it's jumpy or not.  Not "Oh no, I'm scum!" jumpy, but "Hoho, I am so ragingly masculine and watch me hop back and forth shouting en garde!" jumpy.  You aren't being clever.  You aren't "trapping" me.  You aren't even applying any sort of pressure, because I'm about as afraid of you as I am of a toothpick. 

You are being as annoying as fuck.  I say this with the greatest softness I can muster in my tone: "Max White, you are pissing me off and I want to boot you in the face right now."  But because I don't think you're scum, I'm not voting you.  So stop being such a chittering bag of febrile tit-monkeys and shape up.

[Vector]

However, you've already stated that you don't think he's scum, which is something I don't have a problem with.

Pretty much.  The mileage I'd get out of voting him over the same shit everyone's voted him for is less than the mileage I'd get out of bothering someone I suspect more and questioning him without a vote.  Adding a vote will do nothing good unless I want to lynch him, because he's already pretty much cracked.  So, since I need more data before I'd want to lynch, I'm going to hopefully put my vote elsewhere and my questions thereish.

[Max White]

You are being as annoying as fuck.  I say this with the greatest softness I can muster in my tone: "Max White, you are pissing me off and I want to boot you in the face right now."  But because I don't think you're scum, I'm not voting you.  So stop being such a chittering bag of febrile tit-monkeys and shape up.

Man, it's too bad I just buried the hatchet, because that was some what amusing. I'll have to pick this up again some time later on then. 
In the meantime, only a few pages to go.

[Max White]

Ok, been over this with a fine tooth comb. I want Powder Miner in here.
Can we please poke Powder Miner?