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[RedKing]

I wouldn't say "western world"...considering that Europe is usually considered part of that.

WORDS, Y U NO MEAN SAME THING TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE?

[G-Flex]

You are still forcing a connection between the word gypsy and the Roma people. I think it is you who has a stereotype build in their head, and can't see past it.
If the leader of France tries to export the Roma population, then yes, that is a bad thing and racist, but that dosn't mean that when somebody says gypsy they are thinking of a Roma person.
Regardless of what happened in the past, here and now, it relates to free sprites and travellers, for example...

First off, you have to admit that this is an international forum where what words mean in Europe does, in fact, matter.

Secondly, you have to trust me that, in the United States, people use the word "gypsy" to refer to the ethnic group. Not just the ethnic group, but there is still a very clear connection between them, and I've heard it used to refer to them many times, and the current non-ethnic meaning of the word is still related to some very recent active prejudice against them. I don't know why you think the word doesn't ever refer to the ethnic group in the US, because it does, and even when it doesn't, it's usually referring to a complex stereotype involving thievery, con-jobs, traveling, and other aspects that comes from ethnic prejudice that existed even in the US as recently as a generation or two ago. I am speaking from a lifetime of personal experience here, and it's not just all in my head, as you seem to think.

I have never thought of "sunlight fields and flowing skirts", or whatever the hell, when thinking "gypsy". I have always known it to harbor connotations that I've mentioned, even before I knew much about the ethnicity it refers to. I have given you specific examples of cultural stereotyping of gypsies in American culture, recently, including ones that use the word.

[Virex]

Secondly, you have to trust me that, in the United States, people use the word "gypsy" to refer to the ethnic group. Not just the ethnic group, but there is still a very clear connection between them, and I've heard it used to refer to them many times, and the current non-ethnic meaning of the word is still related to some very recent active prejudice against them. I don't know why you think the word doesn't ever refer to the ethnic group in the US, because it does, and even when it doesn't, it's usually referring to a complex stereotype involving thievery, con-jobs, traveling, and other aspects that comes from ethnic prejudice that existed even in the US as recently as a generation or two ago.

For example, for the first 15 years of my life I didn't even know there was a difference between gypsies (or the Dutch equivalent of that word, zigeuners) and Roma.

[RedKing]

I'll concede that the US is a big place, and there may be places where it's used in the European sense. My guess is those would be areas which actually *have* some kind of Romani presence. But I'd like to see you concede that there are in fact, large swathes of the US and Australia (like where I live and where Max lives) where it's not used that way.

[Max White]

I wouldn't say "western world"...considering that Europe is usually considered part of that.

WORDS, Y U NO MEAN SAME THING TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE?

Because that would be easy... I'm sure there is somebody out there who would feel it would be horribly offensive to call somebody with very pale skin but initiated into eastern culture as 'Egg'.

First off, you have to admit that this is an international forum where what words mean in Europe does, in fact, matter.

You expect me to know every single thing that anybody on earth could see as offensive? No, see cultural tolerance is understanding that even though you see something as taboo, doesn't mean everybody does. That is why it isn't offensive to eat bacon, even though Jewish people don't. You don't use the word gypsy because you think it  is offensive because you relate it to a race of people in a negative way, I'm willing to because I relate it to a world outlook in a positive way. Bob dosn't eat bacon because his faith doesn't allow it, I eat bacon because it is yummy. You trying to say I can't eat bacon use specific words isn't very tolerant.

Secondly, you have to trust me that, in the United States, people use the word "gypsy" to refer to the ethnic group. Not just the ethnic group, but there is still a very clear connection between them, and I've heard it used to refer to them many times, and the current non-ethnic meaning of the word is still related to some very recent active prejudice against them. I don't know why you think the word doesn't ever refer to the ethnic group in the US, because it does, and even when it doesn't, it's usually referring to a complex stereotype involving thievery, con-jobs, traveling, and other aspects that comes from ethnic prejudice that existed even in the US as recently as a generation or two ago. I am speaking from a lifetime of personal experience here, and it's not just all in my head, as you seem to think.

I have never thought of "sunlight fields and flowing skirts", or whatever the hell, when thinking "gypsy". I have always known it to harbor connotations that I've mentioned, even before I knew much about the ethnicity it refers to. I have given you specific examples of cultural stereotyping of gypsies in American culture, recently, including ones that use the word.

And yet despite providing several sources where gypsy is viewed in a positive light, you have yet to provide a single example otherwise.

[palsch]

Outside of the US it might be seen that way, but for the western world, it is flowing skirts and sunlit fields.

So now the western world = US? :p

It is a racial slur a great deal of the time here in the UK and much of western Europe (although most languages have their own terms). And to add to that, she was in part explaining why she found much of the American usage deeply offensive.

It's probably easier to understand with Native American stereotypes. People like to romanticise Native culture and, frankly, appropriate it, while flat ignoring the problems and history of the culture and race. Seeing how modern Native Americans could be offended by that shouldn't take much brainpower. Even if it's supposed to be a positive stereotype, all nature loving and peaceful or whatever, it's still bloody offensive. You wouldn't dress in blackface even if you were portraying an NBA allstar or Olympic sprinter, but people are still willing to dress as Injuns for Halloween.

And modern Roma have it worse in some ways, in that they are a far more neglected and ignored group than the modern tribes are, and a group against whom racism is frankly far more acceptable in the western world. But people associated one of the primary terms used to refer to them with romantic fantasy characters and completely unrelated hippy tendencies.

The line in that post that I thought was most relevant;

What I take issue with is NON-Walking People (or NON gypsies) using the word and then defending that use. It’s not their word, they have no business tagging every other ‘hippy’ picture with it.

What you were doing was the equivalent of this. You used a word that has a strong meaning and history. Sure, it was in ignorance. But then when people pointed out the racial overtones and history you fought to defend it.

That's fine, but the history and offensiveness (or appropriateness I suppose is a better term here) isn't something you can change by argument or refusing to acknowledge it. You can't stop a term being racially insensitive by not believing it is. You can choose to ignore those who find it offensive and keep using it, but that is making a concious choice to be offensive.

[penguinofhonor]

I live in the US, and I'd definitely count the definition of a gypsy as "free spirits and travelers" as the very small minority of uses. I don't actually think I've ever heard anyone use that definition, just read it a couple times.

And I'm really not sure if it's relevant that there are places where people don't use the word that way. Because, you know...

See, that's the problem.  You may not think of the word that way, but it doesn't mean it's less offensive just because of your ignorance.  Using my rock example above.  I never knew why they were called "niggerheads" by people in the town I grew up in... but that doesn't make it less offensive.

You going "well you've got to concede this" just feels like you're trying to excuse it.

You expect me to know every single thing that anybody on earth could see as offensive? No, see cultural tolerance is understanding that even though you see something as taboo, doesn't mean everybody does. That is why it isn't offensive to eat bacon, even though Jewish people don't. You don't use the word gypsy because you think it  is offensive because you relate it to a race of people in a negative way, I'm willing to because I relate it to a world outlook in a positive way. Bob dosn't eat bacon because his faith doesn't allow it, I eat bacon because it is yummy. You trying to say I can't eat bacon use specific words isn't very tolerant.

You should be expected to, when shown that a word you use is racist and offensive, to be mature enough to realize that you're hurting real people and stop. Nobody's obligated to be tolerant of the racist things you say, intentional or not.

[Durin Stronginthearm]

You expect me to know every single thing that anybody on earth could see as offensive?

I think what he's expecting you to do is to accept that when someone tells you they find something you've said offensive that you didn't realise was, you should act like an adult and apologise.

[Max White]

Well, I will pick this up this morning, at is it 3:40 am here, and I need some sleep. Leave your arguments on my desk, I will address them when I have a chance.

[G-Flex]

I'll concede that the US is a big place, and there may be places where it's used in the European sense. My guess is those would be areas which actually *have* some kind of Romani presence. But I'd like to see you concede that there are in fact, large swathes of the US and Australia (like where I live and where Max lives) where it's not used that way.

I don't know if it's more due to geographical location, or perception, or just happenstance. I'd rather not assume either way. I'm still skeptical, considering how often I've seen the (more complex version of the) stereotype in active use in media.

... But even if it's not perceived that way where you live, it still comes from prejudices that were active surprisingly recently in your own nation, and that still exist in very stark terms in other nations, and as such, sensitivity to the subject, especially when interacting with people across state and national boundaries, is a very good idea. This is a time in history where a better idea would be to increase awareness of the Roma/Gypsies as an actual people with an actual history, not just "a word that means 'traveler'", or weird fantasy con-men who hex people, or nothing at all. Part of this is recognizing where these words come from. Even if you do live in a place where "gypsy" has absolutely no conscious connection to the Roma people, that only seems possible to me (considering how recent active prejudice against them was) through a very amazing amount of ignorance about the people themselves, which is not good and has contributed to their marginalization of their people. This might not seem very relevant to those living in the US, where the Romani presence isn't that great, but as the world is becoming increasingly international (as evidenced by the fact that we're even talking to each other), these things should seem relevant to all of us.

I will note here that I live in Rhode Island and penguinofhonor lives in Kentucky (two rather different places not very close to each other), and we both agree that the American usage of the word often refers to the ethnic group in some fashion.

[Virex]

You expect me to know every single thing that anybody on earth could see as offensive?

No mister White, I expect you to die! erm, I mean, I think it's fair to ask people to stop using a word after it's been pointed out that said word is hurtful and demeaning. Of course, if you don't know you can't act on it. But if you know it's wrong, why keep on defending your right to use it?

[Andir]

See, that's the problem.  You may not think of the word that way, but it doesn't mean it's less offensive just because of your ignorance.  Using my rock example above.  I never knew why they were called "niggerheads" by people in the town I grew up in... but that doesn't make it less offensive.

You going "well you've got to concede this" just feels like you're trying to excuse it.

Not trying to excuse it... I provided an example from my life where I had no clue of the origin or use of a word that could be deemed offensive then I found out later where it came from.  I, consequently, don't use the word anymore to describe a shiny rock protruding from the dirt.

Basically:

You should be expected to, when shown that a word you use is racist and offensive, to be mature enough to realize that you're hurting real people and stop. Nobody's obligated to be tolerant of the racist things you say, intentional or not.

and this:

You expect me to know every single thing that anybody on earth could see as offensive?

No mister White, I expect you to die! erm, I mean, I think it's fair to ask people to stop using a word after it's been pointed out that said word is hurtful and demeaning. Of course, if you don't know you can't act on it. But if you know it's wrong, why keep on defending your right to use it?

[RedKing]

I wouldn't say "western world"...considering that Europe is usually considered part of that.

WORDS, Y U NO MEAN SAME THING TO DIFFERENT PEOPLE?

Because that would be easy... I'm sure there is somebody out there who would feel it would be horribly offensive to call somebody with very pale skin but initiated into eastern culture as 'Egg'.

IIRC, it actually is mildly offensive in Mandarin, because it carries connotations of a poseur. Kind of like how "otaku" isn't exactly a compliment in Japanese. It's only because these are friends that the connotation is negated when referring to me. China in general doesn't get too hung up on "offensive" language in vernacular speech. The common term of respect for foreigners is laowai, which literally means "old outside[r]". I've known an African-American woman who was affectionately referred to as hei hei ("black-black" or "blackie").

Nobody's obligated to be tolerant of the racist things you say, intentional or not.

See, that's why I think he's dug in his heels. He doesn't feel that he's been racist or stereotypical, and is kinda offended at being called one. And I don't blame him.

Might have been more productive to say "That's not the best choice of words, how about XXXXX?" (and then if questioned why, one can go into the whole history of the term) than to say "nice job being racist, you racist". Actually this is good rule of thumb in general. One of the reasons for the backlash against "politically correct speech" is the often shrill response to every infraction as if it was a capital crime. Often, people aren't cognizant of the underlying layers of meaning when they tell off-color jokes or use shorthand names for things that are common in a dialect and you just grow up using (like the example of n****rtoes for Brazil nuts). Instead of teachable moment, it becomes a conflict moment and people get defensive and you've just made your job harder.

[GlyphGryph]

Take our hypothetical "nigger"-word user. Locally, it doesn't mean much. Maybe, rather than brown skin, it's come to mean someone who "works hard for little reward". (I'm sure you can follow the potential for that sort of linguistic drift)

The people in our hypothetical example have long since forgotten the real meaning of the word - they aren't familiar with its slavery connotations, aren't even really aware there were areas were slaves were predominantly black and called niggers, or where nigger was used as a slur. In essence, they don't even know "niggers" are a thing beyond "a person who works hard for little reward".

That's fine, then - they can use that word amongst themselves. But when they enter an international stage, and tell someone who's working too hard "you should relax! Stop acting like such a nigger." it's obviously going to get a response. And the proper course of action, when the history of the word is explained to him, is to stop using it around that audience. And perhaps be more aware of the other meanings for the word, to learn something, and perhaps avoid using it all in areas where it could be a problem. An apology isn't needed, but would help assuage aggressive feelings on both sides.

In essence:
It is alright for you to use it where you are to mean what the locals use it for. But when its pointed out in other company that the word is offensive, or even potentially offensive, one should probably make an attempt to not use it.

And come on, Roo-fucker isn't a slur, we all know what you get on to on that side of the water.
(But really a playful insult is something very different than what we are talking about, here. And there ARE a decent number of Roma in New Zealand, at least, and probably Australia as well. So even if you don't see it as an insult locally, you may very well interact with people who do and just don't say anything because of the response we're getting right now.)

[G-Flex]

The people in our hypothetical example have long since forgotten the real meaning of the word - they aren't familiar with its slavery connotations, aren't even really aware there were areas were slaves were predominantly black and called niggers, or where nigger was used as a slur. In essence, they don't even know "niggers" are a thing beyond "a person who works hard for little reward".

To be fair, I'd say this is a bad analogy. As I've said, if "gypsy" has lost all traces of its original meaning anywhere in the US (and I'm still skeptical, since it hasn't here or apparently some other places), or anywhere else in the anglophone world really, it's only done so very recently. I mean, I can get centuries, but we're talking more along the lines of decades here, and that kind of social change is usually generational. Again, if that's the case, I think it has to do with an unfortunate lack of awareness of Romani culture/prejudice/problems, and I think increasing that awareness is a good goal to have, and that probably entails less use of words derived from ethnic stereotypes even if they are largely divorced from their origins, if those origins are clearly recognizable.