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[GlyphGryph]

Yeah, Mattasmack covered basically what I was trying to say.

And reducing the speed to 35 was in the interests of building something geared towards affordability and safety rather than speed.

But yeah, the future of solar seems much more likely to be fixed installations - why drag it with you, reducing efficiency, when you can charge up and leave the charging devices behind?

This sort of stuff is a lot more relevant to, say, space exploration, or remote reconnaissance, or autonomous robotics, than it is any sort of public transport. (In other words, areas where it IS important to drag a replenishing power source around with you)

[Virex]

The problem with triple junction cells is that they're damned hard to make and need special dopants to function, which are quite rare. As a result, it's doubtful if it'll ever be possible to mass produce them in quantities that are enough to keep up with the growth of the energy demand, let alone replace the existing sources with them. There's a reason sillicon solar cells are still the most important type of cell on the market.

[Mattasmack]

Yeah we all knew that (well, except Truean, I was as puzzled as Glyph but chose to ignore). The real question is...

Will they fly? 

   My aeronautics design book is around here somewhere, we could figure this out ... but my guess is yes, at least for short distances.  Though unless stability and control issues are addressed, the flight would probably consist of just flipping over.

The problem with triple junction cells is that they're damned hard to make and need special dopants to function, which are quite rare. As a result, it's doubtful if it'll ever be possible to mass produce them in quantities that are enough to keep up with the growth of the energy demand, let alone replace the existing sources with them. There's a reason sillicon solar cells are still the most important type of cell on the market.

Well, shoot.  I know there are companies bringing high-concentration PV modules to market, but I can't for the life of me find a website at the moment to give an example, and I have to sign off.  The triple junction cells are much much more expensive, true, but if you have 500x concentration, you only need 1/500th as much cell area, and the concentrating optics are much cheaper than the cells in terms of aperture area.  (Plus the system is more efficient than silicon cells, so your system is smaller overall for a given amount of output power.)  I don't know anything about the dopants that go into them, though, or their availability, so yeah I could see that being a major issue (similar to the recent rare-earths scare in the U.S. I suppose).


On a related subject, getting an office building to zero net electrity use requires some pretty drastic office lifestyle changes, using current technology:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/15/science/15building.html?_r=1
Cool project, but I wonder how long the people there will stay on their 'best behavior'?

[olemars]

Yeah we all knew that (well, except Truean, I was as puzzled as Glyph but chose to ignore). The real question is...

Will they fly? 

   My aeronautics design book is around here somewhere, we could figure this out ... but my guess is yes, at least for short distances.  Though unless stability and control issues are addressed, the flight would probably consist of just flipping over.

Just add enough wing.

[Truean]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I hesitate to post because I don't think I'll be able to keep up with the conversation, but what the heck ...

Yay, solar power, a subject I actually know anything about!  I hope I'm not totally derailed here ... could the future of transportation (which also touches on the future of energy supplies and delivery systems) be considered a progressive topic?

(snip)

It's not a prototype, its a finished product.

http://wise.web.itd.umich.edu/?page_id=11
"There are plenty of opportunities to brainstorm ideas, develop solutions and test prototypes with faculty, staff and fellow students on campus. Team Design Projects, small group work, collaborative classroom assignments and multidisciplinary projects provide opportunities to hone skills as leaders and develop talents as a team player. From refining the design of the Human-Powered Submarine or racing with the Michigan Solar Car Team to building greenhouses for middle schools, you will work with many interesting students at Michigan. Collaborate with others to enrich your experiences as an engineer."

I'm sorry but .... They call it a prototype themselves. See that picture? That's the same one in the article.... If they call it a prototype and use it as their exemplar prototype.... It's a prototype.

Truean, I think you're still a little wide of the mark here.  The paragraph you quote lists opportunities to engage in a number of steps of the engineering design process ("brainstorm ideas, develop solutions and test prototypes"), but it does not at all mean that the activities of the groups it lists are limited to only those listed activities.  The paragraph is describing opportunities for collaboration, it's not even primarily about the solar car team.  I'm sure the students on that team do prototyping ... prototypes of the solar car, the final version of which is what they enter into races.

I'm sure the team will make a new car in the next two academic years, and will build on the knowledge they gained from this car, but that no more makes this a prototype than it makes any 2011-model-year car a prototype of the 2012-model-year car.  Their goal for a given car is to win a solar car race, and the car they enter into the race is their final product.

First, its not even trying to be a car. Second, it's likely not the best we can do, just the best thats been bothered because its not a particularly lucrative field since the vast bulk of the populace (like yourself) are unwilling to accept the trade-offs it would entail. Finally... why no? Seriously?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Michigan_Solar_Car_Team
http://www.saturnelectronics.com/pr_umsolarcar.htm
Yes... it is trying to be a car.... That is why car companies are sponsoring it; they want to one day build one sorta like this. All those logos on the side.... They call it the "solar car" team. Also it is the best they can do; this is cutting edge man and it's expensive. Speaking of which....

As for the trade offs, this thing cost $1 Million ($1,000,000).
http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2009-06/detroits-latest-solar-powered-infinium-unfortunately-cant-be-bought

People can't afford that stuff dude. It is an entirely valid thing to be "unwilling to accept the trade-offs it would entail," when those trade offs include a million dollar price tag.... That said, safety and functionality are equally valid concerns.
(snip)

Of course it's a car.  Specifically, it's a race car.  (See the first sentence of http://solarcar.engin.umich.edu/the-car/.)  It's no more practical than a Formula 1 race car, and it's not meant to be.  It's meant to win a race.


I agree that these race cars are totally impractical as personal transportation, but I don't think any large car company expects to sell anything like that.  There's just not much solar energy available falling on the surface area of a car; any car that would go a reasonable distance on that energy must be exceptionally light.  Being much lighter than other cars on the road necessarily impacts the safety of the driver, regardless of how well the car is built.  And the heavier vehicles just aren't going anywhere any time soon: think delivery trucks, busses, people carpooling, shuttle-vans, carpenters and plumbers and the like with their trucks full of tools, and so on.

My guess is that the future of personal transportation will involve solar-powered cars, but they won't be directly solar-powered like these are.  Instead, we will drive electric cars, charged from the grid, and the electricity will increasingly come from renewable energy sources such as solar.  (I suppose by my definition I should say, people who live in the southwest U.S. will probably drive solar cars; in other regions they might be hydro, nuclear, wind, etc. - powered.)  Although there will be some hit in efficiency from transporting the energy through the grid, it makes more sense to put solar panels on fixed installations such as rooftops or dedicated plants with one- or two-axis trackers than to put them on every car to be carried around.  Actually, with triple-junction cells there might not even be a hit in overall efficiency -- those cells are more efficient when operated at a high concentration ratio, which is much easier to do on a fixed installation.

I hesitate to post because I don't think I'll be able to keep up with the conversation, but what the heck ...

I do so enjoy fencing here, such good sport. That said, never be afraid to take me head on with the same level of respect you'd like. I never stab to harm; no one else should either.

Yay, solar power, a subject I actually know anything about!  I hope I'm not totally derailed here ... could the future of transportation (which also touches on the future of energy supplies and delivery systems) be considered a progressive topic?

If A = B, and B=C then A =C. If Progressive subjects include environmentalism and environmentalism includes solar power, then solar power is included in progressive subjects?

Truean, I think you're still a little wide of the mark here.  The paragraph you quote lists opportunities to engage in a number of steps of the engineering design process ("brainstorm ideas, develop solutions and test prototypes"), but it does not at all mean that the activities of the groups it lists are limited to only those listed activities.  The paragraph is describing opportunities for collaboration, it's not even primarily about the solar car team.  I'm sure the students on that team do prototyping ... prototypes of the solar car, the final version of which is what they enter into races.

I'm sure the team will make a new car in the next two academic years, and will build on the knowledge they gained from this car, but that no more makes this a prototype than it makes any 2011-model-year car a prototype of the 2012-model-year car.  Their goal for a given car is to win a solar car race, and the car they enter into the race is their final product.

I don't really get why everyone is making a big deal out of me saying the cars are prototypes.
I think the problem seems to be people here are attaching a negative connotation to the word "prototype." There is nothing negative about the word "prototype". I often find breaking things down into CRAC helps....

[Conclusion] It is a Functional Prototype. [Rule/Definition] A Functional Prototype is construction of a fully working full-scale prototype and the ultimate test of concept, is the engineers' final check for design flaws and allows last-minute improvements to be made before larger production runs are ordered. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype#Basic_prototype_categories. http://www.answers.com/topic/prototype Moreover, companies commission prototypes to develop future products in the hope of later salable products and repeated refinement happens in the prototype stages. [Analysis] Here, we have fully working full-scale prototypes of solar cells applied to an automobile, sponsored by automobile, electronic, solar cell, and other tech companies, all of which stand to gain practical application products from this research and testing http://solarcar.engin.umich.edu/quantum-sponsors/. Moreover, the methods of production and the models are repeatedly refined and improved almost completely every year for twenty (20) years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Michigan_Solar_Car_Team [Conclusion] Thus, the cars are  continually refined, commissioned for future salable products, functional prototypes

Commissioned for future products: (Too many links found for me to include them all, these are just the first ones.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What do you think car, solar cell and electronics makers are throwing all that money behind this for? Publicity? No.... This isn't about publicity, they could get much more publicity much cheaper. It's about a development program for prototypes to one day make production sale models to market one day. Follow the money:

http://www.hybridmile.com/news/sunstang-adapting/
Why yes, they are trying to make production models.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/08/12/1408064/stanford-students-prepare-solar.html
"But like the space program, these vehicles provide a real-world chance to test innovative cutting-edge ideas - which could eventually boost the performance of everyday autos."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge
"The objective of this competition is to promote research on solar-powered cars. Teams from universities and enterprises participate. In 2005, 22 teams from 11 countries entered the primary race category."

http://www.hybridcar.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=519&Itemid=122
"GM globally has adopted a clear three-pronged approach to reduce fuel consumption and CO 2 emissions in the future. In the near-term, GM will continue to refine and improve today’s technology to provide better efficiency and performance whilst also introducing renewable alternative fuel vehicles, such as BioPower."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtGNd8TgZ_I&feature=related
Let's not forget, this is being commissioned for testing and future use too.

As for the safety issue, check out how she handles and the riding compartment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuc46dwx9Dw&playnext=1&list=PL3460CED23D19C91D
Start specifically at 1:40
"It has no power steering, so going around turns is really hard"
"Curled up inside like hedgehogs."

I really don't get why people think I'm knocking them.... I think it's cool and hope it gets more development....
_____________________________________________________________

Apparently the President can control gas prices?
http://money.cnn.com/2011/08/18/news/economy/bachmann_gas_prices/index.htm?hpt=hp_t2
[head desk]

[Truean]

Go to hell swiftly sir.... Do I support criminalizing you?

"But next to Santorum, Perry might be the least lgbt-friendly candidate in the race. More so than former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich, who warns we face an existential threat from "gay and secular fascism"; more so, even, than Rep. Michele Bachmann, who once feared that the Lion King would corrupt children because its soundtrack was created by Elton John."

So we're in enough wars I've lost count (Iraq, Iran, Libya?, where else), bleeding money and jobs, and who knows what else. I think terrorists may still be trying to kill us, but clearly "teh geys" are the threat?

Did we redecorate too much? Is that it? We did, didn't we? Seriously, we can change everything back the way it was before we painted if you're that upset Mr. Presidential Candidate.

Focus on the real problems:
Al qaeda and Britany Spears keep releasing videos! Thankfully not together but both need to stop.

[The Mechanical Man]

So we're in enough wars I've lost count (Iraq, Iran, Libya?, where else)

Oh come on, the United States isn't in a war with Libya. That would be like saying that in 1941, prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor, the U.S. was at war with Germany. (In March of 1941 onward, the U.S. was giving the United Kingdom supplies but had not formally declared war)

[Truean]

So we're in enough wars I've lost count (Iraq, Iran, Libya?, where else)

Oh come on, the United States isn't in a war with Libya. That would be like saying that in 1941, prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor, the U.S. was at war with Germany.

Kinda, I know, hence the question mark. We aren't at war but what exactly are we at with them? I know it is nowhere near as bad as Vietnam, but we were "technically" never at war with them either. Meh. Pointing out confusion over the number of wars, draws attention to it. And honest, what are we doing in Libya anyhow? And now we're calling for Syria's head of state to step down.... We can't police the world. Heck we can't police our own country.

[Nadaka]

There are no ongoing US missions in Lybia. NATO is barely still flying over there.

[The Mechanical Man]

So we're in enough wars I've lost count (Iraq, Iran, Libya?, where else)

Oh come on, the United States isn't in a war with Libya. That would be like saying that in 1941, prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor, the U.S. was at war with Germany.

Kinda, I know, hence the question mark. We aren't at war but what exactly are we at with them?

Well, first, there is a rebellion going on in Libya. The U.S. sympathizes with the rebels, and along with many UN nations they have put in economic sanctions against Libya. The UN also imposed a no-fly zone over the area. Basically, no one is formally at war, no boots are on the ground, but people are trying to help the rebels.

[Truean]

So we're in enough wars I've lost count (Iraq, Iran, Libya?, where else)

Oh come on, the United States isn't in a war with Libya. That would be like saying that in 1941, prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor, the U.S. was at war with Germany.

Kinda, I know, hence the question mark. We aren't at war but what exactly are we at with them?

Well, first, there is a rebellion going on in Libya. The U.S. sympathizes with the rebels, and along with many UN nations they have put in economic sanctions against Libya. The UN also imposed a no-fly zone over the area. Basically, no one is formally at war, no boots are on the ground, but people are trying to help the rebels.

Exactly, and that doesn't bode well for us in my opinion.

[The Mechanical Man]

Well, support and funding for any action over there has really gone down in the U.S., though I don't know about the UN.

[Phmcw]

There are no ongoing US missions in Lybia. NATO is barely still flying over there.

If by that you're saying that we bomb them daily, then yes. Else no.

(That's rather a good thing btw)

Support for action in Libya is still strong in Europe, despite our growing defiance toward our governments.

[Siquo]

I really don't get why people think I'm knocking them.... I think it's cool and hope it gets more development....

It was the "No... Just no"-part that confused me the most...

[KaelGotDwarves]

The Libyan Rebels are already doing pretty well with hardly any direct help now.

In other hilarious (depending on whose side you're on) Libyan news, the Dutch essentially give Gadhafi's money away to the WHO to buy medical supplies for victims of the conflict.

And because the Germans and French always need to one-up - They both indirectly transferred/gave the rebels a loan of some hundreds of millions of euros and put up Gaddafi's frozen assets as collateral. So basically giving his money away to the rebels.