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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 870052 times)

Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2400 on: July 27, 2011, 12:36:55 pm »

Quote
Also, how do you expect to discover a child that's in this compound that's not declared?

That's why a commission of monitoring of cult is a good idea : you'd make a visit of social workers any once in a while, with psychologist among them. If they are refused, the group may already be listed under "suspicious". You could also see if they buy child supplies, send agent around the compound to monitor it, and eventually, if a judge allow it, get a warrant and search the compound.

Edit : Among other tools of course : you could take testimony from former member, see if they have been sexually or financially exploited, see if there has been any brainwashing techniques used,...
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 12:45:01 pm by Phmcw »
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Glowcat

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2401 on: July 27, 2011, 01:13:58 pm »

So back when I was a Libertarian I signed up for a bunch of conservative newsletters and haven't bothered to unsubscribe from them despite my views radically shifting over the course of a few years (in part thanks to such newletters). They end up filling my spam box now but occasionally I take a peek at their constant rantings about Obama and thought I'd share something I received from a Gun Rights group. It's so absurd that it practically defeats any attempt at parody before they even start.

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Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is pretty much the standard for all of them as well. Here's an e-mail from AmeriPAC where they attempt making Obama a scrooge/dictator who is trying to withhold Social Security for his political machinations. Oh, and not raising the debt ceiling is totally okay guys!!!

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I'm caught between Progressive Rage, Progressive Speechless, and Progressive LMAO here. How can people be so... gruh. Ending your letter with "Defend America,"? Really?
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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2402 on: July 27, 2011, 01:21:26 pm »

Well, to be fair if you spend enough time at redstate/freerepublic/foxnews and democratic underground/huffingtonpost it all starts to read like CCS/LCS adverts. :P

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Andir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2403 on: July 27, 2011, 02:14:16 pm »

But it's a complete non-sequitur to bring up solutions when someone criticizes a philosophical argument you made. HOORAY, SOMEBODY DIDN'T ADDRESS A POINT YOU NEVER MENTIONED. Now, maybe we should be talking about solving these problems in a concrete way. But you never said that. Apparently, you simply assumed everyone would know what you meant. Or, more likely, you are backpedaling.
This is the point I'm going to refute because the rest of it (I think) falls in line.

Let's say someone came in here and said:  "I think we to forbid the acquisition of sap from this particular kind of pine tree.  It makes a rather bitter syrup."
Me: "I'm not sure I buy that this is that big of a problem."
Someone: "It's still a problem but you won't hear about it.  The people that do it are going around at night in very remote areas to do it."
Me: "With the information about this bitter brew and people planting fewer of these trees, it's an issue that will go away on it's own."
Someone:  "What if these sour trees start producing more acorns?"
Someone else: "Yeah, these trees produce a lot of acorns."
Me: "But the population has been dwindling."
Someone: "True... these do seem to be less of a concern.  But what about the trees that still exist?"
Me: "Well, maybe someone still obtains sap form those trees.  Maybe that's all they know how to get sap from?"
Someone: "I don't doubt it... but maybe that's all they know and don't have the knowledge to get sap from other trees."
Someone: "I can't provide numbers... but I know that the trees exist and they are a very serious problem because this sap is extra bitter."
Me: "I'm an optimist.  The reported number have been falling.  People know about the bitter syrup.. things will work out.  There are even services that will help landowners remove those trees if they want."
Someone: "But will the landowners do anything about it?  Sure the services exist... but nobody uses them."
Someone: "These landowners choose to not clear those trees though!"
Me: "I'm not sure what to tell you.  The options are out there.  I mean, you can go out and cut down all those trees yourself, but it's going to be a bastard of a job trying to track all those trees down."
Someone: "Yeah there are options.  Eating bitter sap.  People aren't well informed of this plight.  I used to eat this sap and now I've found the sweeter stuff."
Me: "You are well informed of the issue and have moved on.  That's one bonus."
Someone: "You can continue to be optimistic that the other trees will overcome this bitter species, but you are still not addressing this bitter species and I will not abide that."
Me: "How do you intend to solve this?  Do you want to go around marking all these trees for extermination?  That seems a bit extreme."
Someone: "They want you to know that they do not approve of this bitter sap tree."
Someone: "You are presenting an overly harsh penalty for this problem I think... he wants help informing people that the trees much not be sapped."
Me: "Ok, we are aware.  Why are we still arguing?  I feel like someone is trying to forcefully push me into their campaign against these trees."
Someone: "I'm seriously angry with you right now."
Me: "Why?  Because I think the problem will go away and they are trying to get me to join their cause?"
Someone: "What did they do, send you a flier telling you about the big bad trees?"
Someone: "You can just leave this discussion.  Poor victim.  You can't defend yourself?  How unbearable.  You can go off and talk about your ideas on how these trees will go away somewhere else.  There's other communities that support your ideas that the trees are being eclipsed by the sweeter growth.  If you intend on making other people silent on this issue... just be gone."
Me: "So you want to kick me out because I don't agree and you hate my viewpoint?"
Someone: "Everyone keeps saying how horrible these trees are, but nobody's offering up suggestions..."
Me: "Thanks, I said this earlier, but not so elegantly.  What do you expect people to do about these trees?"
Someone: "Here's a list of things I could do..."
Angry person from earlier: "Now you want to classify this as hate?  [steam] You can give your opinion, but I can also ask you to leave.  You can't seem to let someone complain about these bitter trees!"
Me: "I was offering dissenting opinion.  I've stated that the problem has been dwindling and is going away and people keep telling me that I'm not providing enough support."
Someone: "They stated an opinion, you stated an opinion... this is how it works."
Someone: "You are trying to shove your opinion down my throat while defending the sapping of bitter trees."
Me: "Yeah, conversation is a two way street, but I'm being told my opinion is not worth tolerance and I'm being told that I'm defending these tree sappers?  All I wanted was possible solutions."
Someone: "You are defending those damn bitter tree sappers and I will not tolerate it."
Me: "Quit trying to say I'm defending those sappers.  There is a method and a means for these trees to be taken care of.  Short of inspecting every forest from Maine to California, you are going to have a very hard time trying to prevent someone from sapping those dwindling trees.  People will have a choice between the two different syrups if they just buy that other brand, but as stated, these people don't want to try another brand, so I have no idea what you expect."
Someone: "Why do you still defend those sappers?  Every post you make is clearer to point out what you really are."
Someone: "They just want to prevent people from having to eat bitter syrup."
Someone: "Why do we need a step by step solution?"
Me: "I really wish you'd stop telling me that I'm defending those sappers.  I asked for solutions to correct the problem."
Someone: "You keep assuming what people think."
Me: "I'm not assuming anything.  I just don't think that we can systematically trot down the street and pick out tree sappers that you think are tapping trees with that bitter sap."

Now, I won't argue the points here people keep tripping over words, but that's the gist of my conversation here, like it or not.  I'm not hiding anything or trying to pin something on someone.  If you read it that way, that's not my fault.  I merely stated the concentration camp as one possible outcome because of historic persecution.  This was continually pushed back in my face as me trying to identify someone as a Nazi... which is wholly untrue.  I just have a problem with said person grouping together "tree sappers" based on their profession rather than trying to find the ones sneaking out at night.  It's a comparison, not a label.


Quote
Also, how do you expect to discover a child that's in this compound that's not declared?

That's why a commission of monitoring of cult is a good idea : you'd make a visit of social workers any once in a while, with psychologist among them. If they are refused, the group may already be listed under "suspicious". You could also see if they buy child supplies, send agent around the compound to monitor it, and eventually, if a judge allow it, get a warrant and search the compound.

Edit : Among other tools of course : you could take testimony from former member, see if they have been sexually or financially exploited, see if there has been any brainwashing techniques used,...
How do you know the cult is there?  Sure, if someone left, that happens.  But if nobody leaves (as is the case apparently) you cannot even possibly know that the cult is there.  But going as far as monitoring every citizens buying habits now steps into the realm of privacy and unjust monitoring.  You also get into a realm of violation of trust when you tell random churches that you wish to send in a team of psychologists.  You are bordering on religious oppression.  (eg: "Why don't you send that same team into that church over there?  Are you trying to harass us?"  "No sir, we were told by ____ to inspect every Pentecostal church in the region to see if any of you are nut jobs.")
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2404 on: July 27, 2011, 02:40:41 pm »

Same way than with terrorist group, how do you know you must monitor one religious or political association and not the other?. You make a judge supervise the process, classify group following their risk factors, and send the social workers in every remote group, as a routine inspection/help. Make them useful, wanted by usual, harmless group.
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In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.

Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2405 on: July 27, 2011, 03:19:25 pm »

The problem with that conversation is that your first line should be "Just to check, are you saying that anyone who saps these trees ought to be locked up?" and then, later on, you need to draw a connection between saying that and being Hitler. Also, you voiced your feelings of victimization via a word that didn't make sense except to be aggravating. I'd have had no problem with, "I feel like you're trying to pressure me into your campaign". I do have a problem with, "I feel like you're trying to rape me into your campaign", for reasons I've already explained.

But look, these are potentially just social errors. Maybe you didn't expect the implications to be drawn that were, and the resulting argument was entirely unintended. I've done stupid shit like that all the time, but you really don't get anywhere by insisting that everyone else should just let it slide. There's a pretty huge difference in reception between, "I didn't mean to imply that, I'm sorry" and "I didn't mean to imply that, you're wrong to bring it up". By the halfway point in your conversation, the trees weren't even important, at least not to me.

EDIT: Important to why I'm arguing with you, I mean.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Andir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2406 on: July 27, 2011, 03:30:31 pm »

Same way than with terrorist group, how do you know you must monitor one religious or political association and not the other?. You make a judge supervise the process, classify group following their risk factors, and send the social workers in every remote group, as a routine inspection/help. Make them useful, wanted by usual, harmless group.
It seems optimistic, but according to some, it's not so easy and there will still be people suffering.  It's what I've been arguing.  The whole ordeal is such a minor part of the real problems... and we've already spent wa....ay too much time on this one small group than they deserve.

The problem with that conversation is that your first line should be "Just to check, are you saying that anyone who saps these trees ought to be locked up?" and then, later on, you need to draw a connection between saying that and being Hitler. Also, you voiced your feelings of victimization via a word that didn't make sense except to be aggravating. I'd have had no problem with, "I feel like you're trying to pressure me into your campaign". I do have a problem with, "I feel like you're trying to rape me into your campaign", for reasons I've already explained.
My first point was never about locking people up... here is what I was referring to:
As far as "Taliban level discrimination" I don't doubt there is some... but I would not state that it's a major factor.  Not anymore.
Its probably less than 1%, but its a lot more than you would expect if you didn't know exactly what to look for.
Yeah, not a major factor.  It's dieing.  Let it die.  You are not going to change those folks overnight and sometimes it just takes time, freedom to speak out against it (like you are doing) but don't expect someone to go in with a wooden bat and beat it out of them.  Educate, make aware, and help those reaching out in any way you can... just don't start a holy war over it.
Then later, I draw the connection between the concentration camps to cutting down all the trees where I said here: "That seems a bit extreme."  (ie: concentration camp == extreme)

The whole Hitler reference was more in line with equating everyone in that sect as if they practice the same beliefs as their leader or prior members.  He most definitely said (in a fit of rage) that he "categorizing everyone in a sect that actively endorses rape and child abuse as evil" ignoring the individual... (ie: every person in said sect where said sect endorses rape and child abuse.) At least, that's how I read it.

Edit: Oh hell, reading it now it has two meanings.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 03:34:43 pm by Andir »
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"Having faith" that the bridge will not fall, implies that the bridge itself isn't that trustworthy. It's not that different from "I pray that the bridge will hold my weight."

Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2407 on: July 27, 2011, 03:40:39 pm »

Thank goodness.  Maybe we can all cool our jets, now.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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KaelGotDwarves

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2408 on: July 27, 2011, 03:42:55 pm »

This Vector's thread, but can I vote for not another bunch of pages of picking the rethoric of each other's posts to pieces while missing the entire damn over-arching point of the arguments? It's good to clarify personal opinions without launching the entire thread into defensive derpcon 1.

Thanks.

/ninja'd

Bauglir

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2409 on: July 27, 2011, 04:01:34 pm »

Ah, you're right, I had skimmed one of Nadaka's posts and missed a few things there, so I thought this was actually a separate conversation from that one rather than having evolved from it. So consider that particular objection withdrawn.


EDIT: Hm, I agree with Kael, but I also feel like I'm a major culprit here. Bleh. I tried to avoid the quote-sniping wherever possible and respond only to the actual arguments, but... I'm not as good at that as I thought. My apologies! New rule, I'm not going to make a post in an argument if that post requires quoting some other, specific post more than once.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 04:06:33 pm by Bauglir »
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2410 on: July 27, 2011, 04:07:24 pm »

Misogyny and the Oslo attacks.

My apologies for the term "manosphere" used in the blog.  I would prefer the term "MRAsphere" or similar, but... bleh.

Anyway, I thought this was an interesting article in content, though the execution is imperfect.

Please feel free to discuss both the content and the rhetorical devices used, because I realize it may be offensive; I'm posting the link anyway because I thought the rest of it had a certain value.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2411 on: July 27, 2011, 04:11:59 pm »

Honestly, I think this thing with Andir needs to stop.  Andir, I'm not saying you need to leave or anything.  I'm just saying we need to move on.  There was a misunderstanding.  I honestly don't believe there was any ill-intent originally.  But somehow this misunderstanding turned into whirlwind of shallow sophistry that turned everyone sour.  There's no reason it should be blown up like this.

EDIT: Hm, I agree with Kael, but I also feel like I'm a major culprit here. Bleh. I tried to avoid the quote-sniping wherever possible and respond only to the actual arguments, but... I'm not as good at that as I thought. My apologies! New rule, I'm not going to make a post in an argument if that post requires quoting some other, specific post more than once.

Don't be too hard on yourself about this.  The argument got drawn out over several very text-heavy pages.  There comes a point where it gets hard to keep track of, and it just needs to stop.  You shouldn't feel any need to restrict your use of quotes in a debate.  In fact, debates tend to get more confusing without them.  It's useful to let others know exactly what's been said that you're placing emphasis on, and provide context to your own responses.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 04:16:27 pm by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Phmcw

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2412 on: July 27, 2011, 04:35:12 pm »

I dislike manosphere too, machosphere may work better.

But nothing special there : he really was your topical right wing asshole, and we've had a few spree killing attempt in Europe from people fond of this crap.
That's one occurrence where gun control is good : ours was in Anvers, but the killer only has a lever action low power hunting rifle, and thus only killed two person before being shot by a policeman. He could not get anything better.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2011, 04:39:38 pm by Phmcw »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2413 on: July 27, 2011, 04:40:21 pm »

Misogyny and the Oslo attacks.
The first part of this post seems to be association fallacy.  It's certainly interesting that Breivek held misogynistic views, but the fact that he does doesn't make the views less valid, or in any way tar those on the "manosphere" that hold similar views.  There are many reasons why their views are detestable and often incoherent and detached from reality, but the mere fact that they share it with a mass murderer isn't one of them.

The second part (which for me is from when Ferdinand Bardamu's post is mentioned) is profoundly disturbing, however, and does seems to involve people trying to justify Breivek's actions.  The Sofiastry post is also really bad in that it performs the debating tactic of "arbitrarily assign a motive to your opponents and criticise them for that".

Quote
Despite the many undeniable similarities between Breivik's repellent misogyny and misogynist beliefs that are widespread in the "manosphere," some MRAs profess to be shocked –shocked! – that anyone would connect the dots. MRA bloviator Bernard Chapin, for example, responded to my first piece on Breivik with an angry, incoherent ten minute YouTube diatribe expressing his outrage that I would possibly suggest any connection between MRA thought and a "psychopath" like Breivik. It's a classic case of someone protesting too much. The connections are clear to anyone willing to see them.
To be honest... I actually think that a protest at the association fallacy is justified.  That you happen to share some of your views with a mass murderer doesn't necessarily mean you are detestable.  I can't comment on the actual video though since I haven't watched it and it could well be an incoherent misogynistic spiel.
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Lysabild

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2414 on: July 27, 2011, 04:57:09 pm »

Misogyny and the Oslo attacks.

My apologies for the term "manosphere" used in the blog.  I would prefer the term "MRAsphere" or similar, but... bleh.

Anyway, I thought this was an interesting article in content, though the execution is imperfect.

Please feel free to discuss both the content and the rhetorical devices used, because I realize it may be offensive; I'm posting the link anyway because I thought the rest of it had a certain value.

I honestly dislikes those articles, for a lot of reasons :/ "They hate us, so let us hate them." is all I'm seeing.

It's also not hatred to have an idea of how he percieves a woman should be placed in society, of what I read in the sick piece of work called his manifest, it's more like he thinks they should do what nature made them to do, that's not hate, it's more of a anti-liberal cultural wish. Imo anyway.

I too find it a problem how low the birthrate is in my country, honestly, and as danish musician sings "I feel like cutting out my heart and giving it to my daughter, tell people who don't want children that they don't understand shit, who cares about projects in banks, it's life and not thought about life that counts." Rather liberally and quickly translated from memory, but even as I am bisexual and young I couldn't agree more. If I'm not getting a child myself, I'm adopting.

I'm not run by an idea about it as a race threatened by extinction though, I'd probably pick an asian kid if I adopted.

I lost my point again, I rant too much. But I really dislike those links, they're single-minded and it's like watching politics, taking the opposites to be opposite.
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