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[Andir]

Andir, you keep on assuming people's points of view, rather than asking them about them.

You really need to stop doing that, because as far as I can tell, it's caused most of the problems here today.

I'm not assuming anything.  Nadaka has stated that anyone in a particular sect of religion should all be lumped together simply by association and called them all rapist and child abusers.  This is where I have a problem.

Identify a person as a rapist or abuser.  Do not identify a person by their association.

Counter to that...I've been told that I support rape and child abuse, which I do not... so I'm actually the one being assumed upon.

[Vector]

(and I assume even against some of their own will since you seem so adamant about it.)

I've seen you do this at least once before.

Once more: ask what someone is advocating before you launch a thousand ships laden with Hitler comparisons.

[Andir]

(and I assume even against some of their own will since you seem so adamant about it.)

I've seen you do this at least once before.

Once more: ask what someone is advocating before you launch a thousand ships laden with Hitler comparisons.

I have asked.  I've given obstacles to that train of though and I was called a supporter and evil and was never given anything but personal attacks.


Nadaka, stated that murder and suicide was the only way out of that situation painting an overly bleak (IMHO) picture of what is actually going on, even going as far to say something along the lines of "You can't find this on Google, you just know it's there."  Circumstantial evidence throughout.  I questioned it and brought up the concentration camps because nobody else was giving solutions and it was the most recent religious re-education that I could think of.
Now, I start to get flack and am told that my viewpoint is somehow supporting them by stating the obstacles to identifying the people involved...and it all went downhill.

The only evidence brought forth that this is still a concerted issue is hand-waving that the groups involved keep to themselves and don't talk to people on the outside so searching Google would not give evidence of it occurring.  This to me sounds like a snake oil salesman or a psychic.  "Just trust me".

So I wondered... how are you supposed to let them know if you can't identify the people who need to know?  What are you to do with them when you find them?  What if they don't want to hear your heathen words?

And I'm the one supporting them... I'm the one that's evil.

[Vector]

I just... hurgh.

Doodabuddy, you are making it really hard to argue with you due to the simple expedient of your rhetorical style.  I don't have anything more to say right now, but I would very much appreciate your working on it.

You know.  The hyperbole, the appropriations of various words, painting yourself as a victim.  It makes it really hard to talk to you, and if you want us (or at least me) to listen to you seriously, I would appreciate it if you reconsidered your words and their potential impact on others.

[SalmonGod]

Nadaka did no such thing.  All he's done is insist that people recognize the nature of some cult-like sects, and characterized the members of those sects (at least the women and children) as victims, nullifying your assertion that he characterizes anyone in those sects as evil.  I think the only claims of evil he has made are regarding the abusive teachings of those sects and anyone who would defend those teachings without the excuse that they're of the population that has been brainwashed to do so.

As for what I would propose:  I really think we need religious education in schools.  I think there should be a class that teaches the history, beliefs, and current culture and global context of every major religion in public schools, and inclusion of the subject on those tests that are required by the state for home and private school students.  I think if kids are given a solid impression of how diverse the world is, that they would feel less pressure to conform strictly to the environment they were raised in.  I've known lots of very heavily religiously indoctrinated kids who were barely aware of the existence of other religions until they were young adults, and I can see how easy it would be for people in those situations to grow up feeling trapped and self-victimizing.

I completely disagree with your assessment that anyone who wants to change their situation can simply do so.  Read up on the personal experiences of those who have been caught up in scientology.  There is a lot of information available about the methods they employ now, and the people who were deeply indoctrinated into that cult have had to make serious sacrifices and suffer severely disadvantaged place in the world in order to escape.  Yes, they did it.  Every survivor will also talk about the dozens of people they knew who haven't, and who they are now cut off from and unable to help.

[Willfor]

As for what I would propose:  I really think we need religious education in schools.  I think there should be a class that teaches the history, beliefs, and current culture and global context of every major religion in public schools, and inclusion of the subject on those tests that are required by the state for home and private school students.

I'm going to step right up here, and point out that the people Nadaka is talking about are the people who are more likely to homeschool their children rather than send them to public or even private schools. I'm not saying it won't help, because it will. Also, I know this isn't the only solution you have to this. I'm just pointing out that what it is going for may be the very thing that gets the people you are trying to help pulled out of the places that could help them. If they haven't been already, of course.

[Andir]

Working on what?  I stated thoughts and ideas and viewpoints and am painted as a rape supporter.  How is that not victimizing?

I'll be sure to pass my choice of words past the approval board next time.  I can't say they will approve of my choices though since it might be construed as offensive and we definitely can't have people hearing things they don't want to hear.

Nadaka did no such thing.

I have never seen anything published anywhere about the depth and breadth of problems in the IFB and pentacostal churches. Like I said, they isolate themselves from outsiders. The believers won't tell you any of this. You will have to find a person who left the church, and cohesion within the group is strong enough to make this very rare. I probably wouldn't be able to tell you this if I wasn't born as one. Its also the reason I can only point to the surface aspects of the pentacostals, they were a separate group, but all the warning signs are there.

...it may be a small problem, but it is a severe one and bigger than a couple google searches will show.

You are right. There are options.
Suicide. Murder or close enough to it.

... while you defend a religion that has a policy endorsing the rape of women and abuse of children. If your religion really is threatened by my "hate speech", you are a vile and evil person, utterly beneath my contempt.

Why do you defend it? Why do you defend the rape and abuse of children?

Damn right I am categorizing everyone in a sect that actively endorses rape and child abuse as evil. WHAT THE FUCK IS EVIL IF THAT IS NOT EVIL?
...
Every single post you do makes it more clear exactly what you are.

[SalmonGod]

That's why I included the note about tests for home and private school students.  Even home schooled kids are required to pass certain standardized tests, right?  The only way they can avoid that is if they keep their kids hidden from the outside world -- off of any paperwork or anything else that might alert social services.  I know there are still more ways that they can circumvent this, but it's the best idea I have and I've been thinking for years now that it would be healthy for the majority of the population anyway, since woeful ignorance of religions and cultures beyond their own is a problem that is rampant in the u.s. and definitely not unique to the type of extremists we're currently discussing.

Andir:  Yeah, now compare those quotes you carefully selected to his tone before the discussion began getting emotional.  It's not the same.  It seems to me that you pressed him on an issue that is very personal to him.  He began reacting emotionally, which only caused you to escalate the problem by putting up stronger defenses.  This isn't an uncommon thing for internet debates on subjects like these.  All it takes to prevent episodes such as these is a little sensitivity.  You are not the person who has personally suffered as a result of this issue.  Please show some respect and tolerance for someone who has.

[Andir]

I completely disagree with your assessment that anyone who wants to change their situation can simply do so.  Read up on the personal experiences of those who have been caught up in scientology.  There is a lot of information available about the methods they employ now, and the people who were deeply indoctrinated into that cult have had to make serious sacrifices and suffer severely disadvantaged place in the world in order to escape.  Yes, they did it.  Every survivor will also talk about the dozens of people they knew who haven't, and who they are now cut off from and unable to help.

Sorry, I have to go back to this... people get involved in these religions through some fault of their own... be it social or psychological... how do you propose that you keep people from joining up to these religions and or getting out if they cannot or will not choose to do so themselves?

I personally don't see any methodology that would do this without an exorbitant amount of corruption or self interest (ie: churches getting involved to recruit people away to their own) or simply banning all religion (which would never fly.)

Again, you also get into a very delicate situation where some people may enjoy the limitations enforced by their religion.  I've heard many people state that if more people feared God there would be less crime.  How is this fundamentally different than telling someone that God will punish them for not covering their face.  Both of them (IMO) are artificial beliefs of the sect but may or may not be followed depending on the individual person.

Granted, rape and abuse are both illegal activities, but you first have to find the person being violated... then you have to inform then in such a way that doesn't violate their thoughts on what their god approves, which may be impossible.  Identifying the persons involved may also violate privacy and/or rights of those who have no relation to said events.

Edit:

The only thing I was pressing was thoughts on how to resolve it and how I thought it was near impossible due to the size of the issue and the constraints.

[Andir]

Sorry for the double post, but I'm going to bed finally... it's way too late, but I wanted to finalize some things.

There are methods for dealing with these people.  Saying there isn't is just blatant lies.  Victims will get out, they will inform the police or authorities and they will take action.  Sitting around in a circle saying, "There's this thing going on, but you'll never hear about it on the news." doesn't really do anything but spread fear.

The system will solve itself given time... just like most other things.  People will be hurt by stupid people.  It's a fact of life and building on my earlier point, it will die off as people become more educated and aware.  The Internet has helped a lot of people and it will continue.  The most important thing you can do it fight for the rights of speech and information.  All forms... hate and fluffy.

You may think this is me turning a blind eye to the issue that is supposedly rampant, but I just accept that people will live the lives they want.  They will make the choices they want and trying to enforce my ideals on them is useless.  Utterly useless.  Trying to save every person in every situation will only lead you to an early grave due to stress, anger, or flat out exhaustion.  Sometimes you have to place a little trust in the established methods.

Unless you are willing to authorize door to door searches and violations of innocent people's rights, you simply have to wait for the cells to come active (and they will...) or you have to pay people to infiltrate all the religious organizations all over the country and try to find that "needle" in the haystack.  Even if you do find that needle, you need to be ready for a Waco because they may not want you in their lives... and you need to accept that fact even if you don't agree.

Good night.

[trees]

This is a really cool thread. I'm only about halfway through it right now, but I've learned a lot and thought a lot. I'm probably not going to post much (mostly because there's a lot of things that I don't know well enough to have opinions on) so this is mostly so I can watch the thread, heh.

[Nivim]

This is a really cool thread. I'm only about halfway through it right now, but I've learned a lot and thought a lot. I'm probably not going to post much (mostly because there's a lot of things that I don't know well enough to have opinions on) so this is mostly so I can watch the thread, heh.

You have automagically inspired me to actually read the whole thread rather than a couple random pages now and then.

[SalmonGod]

Sorry, I have to go back to this... people get involved in these religions through some fault of their own... be it social or psychological... how do you propose that you keep people from joining up to these religions and or getting out if they cannot or will not choose to do so themselves?

We're not worried about people who get involved in a religion by their own devices... we worry about people who are born into them or forced by other means, or who may have got involved of their own free will and then found themselves trapped in ways they didn't foresee... and everything else you said just gives me the impression that you haven't been reading, as you're repeating a lot of things that have already been said as if they haven't been and continue to suggest that we've been saying things that we haven't... so whatever, I guess.

[Dsarker]

Again, you also get into a very delicate situation where some people may enjoy the limitations enforced by their religion.  I've heard many people state that if more people feared God there would be less crime.  How is this fundamentally different than telling someone that God will punish them for not covering their face.  Both of them (IMO) are artificial beliefs of the sect but may or may not be followed depending on the individual person.

Sorry, got to stop you there. When they say that there would be less crime if more people feared God, they're really just using a different meaning to what you are attributing to it. In this case, the word 'fear' is simply the best word to translate for what is more of a respect/love.

[Andir]

Again, you also get into a very delicate situation where some people may enjoy the limitations enforced by their religion.  I've heard many people state that if more people feared God there would be less crime.  How is this fundamentally different than telling someone that God will punish them for not covering their face.  Both of them (IMO) are artificial beliefs of the sect but may or may not be followed depending on the individual person.

Sorry, got to stop you there. When they say that there would be less crime if more people feared God, they're really just using a different meaning to what you are attributing to it. In this case, the word 'fear' is simply the best word to translate for what is more of a respect/love.

Oh boy, it's been said that I'm the one appropriating words?  No, if they meant respect or love, either of those two words would have been used.  I consistently hear people talking about the "fear of God" and twisting it to mean something else is simply backpedaling.  I'm not getting into an argument on how religions today bend the words to mean whatever they feel like.  It's been discussed in the religion threads and I'm not bringing it here.

We're not worried about people who get involved in a religion by their own devices... we worry about people who are born into them or forced by other means, or who may have got involved of their own free will and then found themselves trapped in ways they didn't foresee... and everything else you said just gives me the impression that you haven't been reading, as you're repeating a lot of things that have already been said as if they haven't been and continue to suggest that we've been saying things that we haven't... so whatever, I guess.

Again, I ask.  How do you plan on finding these people and informing them?  The only option I can think of is to have some agent visit every household in the US and ask if the person is harboring six wives and or underage kids in his basement.  Anything more would be illegal search and seizure.  Aside from that, someone from that basement or someone next door has to notice these actions and say: "You gotta check this out."  Being five states away (arbitrary number, this is the Internet, it could be anywhere...) I don't understand how the knowledge that this thing happens is supposed to change any of this for me.  Isn't this why we hire people to enforce the law?

I've been fully accepting of moving on and offering up ideas on how to go about resolving the issue, but people keep going back to the premise that I support them in some way simply because I stated that (given the current state) it's something that will go away with time and allowing things to work out.  I don't understand how 14 pages of argument over my viewpoints on the way it is currently helps at all.