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[Bauglir]

It might even have to be acceptable for men to wear clothing not labeled a kilt which I'm not sure I want to see... and I'm not being sexist here.  I just don't want to see that.

Why not? It's not that I'm necessarily saying you should, nor am I trying to snipe one particular point and ignore your actual post (which I don't really have the energy to respond to the entirety of right now). This is just an interesting point, because it seems to me that "just not wanting" equality in some particular area between men and women is the very definition of sexism, unless you've got some other reasoning here that you just haven't gotten into. It's certainly not the highest-priority area, but still, I'm interested. I would ask, though, that if your reasoning comes down to your own aesthetic preferences (which is fine, to a point), you include some reason why it's acceptable for people not attracted to women to have to put up with it.

[RedKing]

I hate the statement "white man's burden" btw... the way it sounds to me is as if we are just whining and are not being treated unfairly at all.

It's not "whining".  "White man's burden" is supposed to be the obligation of the superior white man to teach all the coloured savages how to be good, decent, godfearing people.  It's the burden of being so much better you're obliged to help other people get slightly up towards your level.

Yeah, it's a racist term.  I wouldn't use it.

My point in using it was the underlying myopia that it embodied. It smacks of a Victorian missionary, to whom one has complained about the treament of indigenous peoples,  remarking, "Yes, but no one ever considers OUR plight. These people at least get to stay in their native land, while we have to suffer through miserable heat and flies, far from home. Surely that is an equal deprivation to what they're suffering under our benign rule?"

Higher expectation of providing financial support != higher expectation of providing sexual favors.

Neither is fair, but they are not equal.

[Nadaka]

As far as "Taliban level discrimination" I don't doubt there is some... but I would not state that it's a major factor.  Not anymore.

Pentacostal women may not wear pants, must keep their hair long, may not wear makeup, may not wear short/tight/revealing dresses/shirts, may not work outside the home, must always obey their father and husband, may not divorce for any reason, may not drive, may not use contraception, may not have premarital sexual activity, need no advanced education, etc. Pentecostals may have some of the same qualities as the IFB I mention below, but I can not say for certain.

Similar applies to the Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches, though they have fewer clothing and work restrictions, on the other hand they have institutional violence and believe that a wife provides consent to the husband at the altar, making spousal rape acceptable. They also elevate the concept that a man is king of his castle to the point where a mans authority and behavior can not be questioned by anyone in regards to his wife and children. That isn't good, and if the man is a psychopath or sadist it is a damn horror show.

Sure, honor killings and mutilations are extremely rare in the US, but there are hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of people living like that. You don't hear much about them because they mostly expand by breeding, rather than conversion and intentionally isolate themselves from outsiders. Its probably less than 1%, but its a lot more than you would expect if you didn't know exactly what to look for.

[Andir]

I hate the statement "white man's burden" btw... the way it sounds to me is as if we are just whining and are not being treated unfairly at all.

It's not "whining".  "White man's burden" is supposed to be the obligation of the superior white man to teach all the coloured savages how to be good, decent, godfearing people.  It's the burden of being so much better you're obliged to help other people get slightly up towards your level.

Yeah, it's a racist term.  I wouldn't use it.

I guess it sounds like it means something else to me which touches on the whole idea of perceived hate.  To me (in the context) it sounded like it was an imagined "burden" or whining.  I'm actually surprised I hadn't heard that used more often "the way things are today" or the way people seem to think things are.

Vector:  I wasn't personally pointing to you... but the group as a whole.  I guess I worded it wrong.  You seem like a well rounded individual, which is awesome in my book.  Unfortunately, Princess Macy (my nearly 4 year old niece) would not have anything to do with "boy stuff" because of what her maternal influences tell her is proper.  My brother is rather open to her helping him in the garage with his classic car obsession... but mom says, "No."

Bauglir:  Personal preference.  It's kind of like not wanting to see someone vomit and really has no bearing on the sex, but the "upkeep" of the person wearing it.  Kilts usually are of length and have accompanying socks.  The only other way I can explain it is that it feels to me like plumber's butt.  Nobody wants to see that (that I know of.)  As odd as it sounds, I don't think I'd mind seeing a man wearing a skirt if he kept himself presentable.  Make sense?

As far as "Taliban level discrimination" I don't doubt there is some... but I would not state that it's a major factor.  Not anymore.

Its probably less than 1%, but its a lot more than you would expect if you didn't know exactly what to look for.

Yeah, not a major factor.  It's dieing.  Let it die.  You are not going to change those folks overnight and sometimes it just takes time, freedom to speak out against it (like you are doing) but don't expect someone to go in with a wooden bat and beat it out of them.  Educate, make aware, and help those reaching out in any way you can... just don't start a holy war over it.

[Leafsnail]

Yeah, not a major factor.  It's dieing.  Let it die.  You are not going to change those folks overnight and sometimes it just takes time, freedom to speak out against it (like you are doing) but don't expect someone to go in with a wooden bat and beat it out of them.  Educate, make aware, and help those reaching out in any way you can... just don't start a holy war over it.

Is it dying?  It seems like something that will very happily perpetuate itself as long as you allow it to.  I'd say you can give people human rights and, say, recognise marital rape as rape without starting a "holy war".

[Nadaka]

Yeah, not a major factor.  It's dieing.  Let it die.  You are not going to change those folks overnight and sometimes it just takes time, freedom to speak out against it (like you are doing) but don't expect someone to go in with a wooden bat and beat it out of them.  Educate, make aware, and help those reaching out in any way you can... just don't start a holy war over it.

Is it dying?  It seems like something that will very happily perpetuate itself as long as you allow it to.  I'd say you can give people human rights and, say, recognise marital rape as rape without starting a "holy war".

They have a higher average number of children than any other group I know of except for immigrants from Mexico and Latin America. So no, they are not going to just die out.

[Andir]

Yeah, not a major factor.  It's dieing.  Let it die.  You are not going to change those folks overnight and sometimes it just takes time, freedom to speak out against it (like you are doing) but don't expect someone to go in with a wooden bat and beat it out of them.  Educate, make aware, and help those reaching out in any way you can... just don't start a holy war over it.

Is it dying?  It seems like something that will very happily perpetuate itself as long as you allow it to.  I'd say you can give people human rights and, say, recognise marital rape as rape without starting a "holy war".

I don't have any hard facts, but I'd say it is far less than historic prevalence.  I'm sure that thanks to the Internet we are enjoying the over-inundation of information regarding this, but I'd definitely go out on a very small limb and state that it's becoming far less of an issue today than it's ever been (probably thanks in part to things like the Internet.)

Edit:
I'm talking about the very fundamental sects of Pentacostalism... there are sects that consider themselves Pentacostal but don't practice such discrimination.  (Also, as a non-believer, I feel odd defending people that I sometimes feel at odds with... that's an odd sentence.)

[Leafsnail]

I don't have any hard facts, but I'd say it is far less than historic prevalence.  I'm sure that thanks to the Internet we are enjoying the over-inundation of information regarding this, but I'd definitely go out on a very small limb and state that it's becoming far less of an issue today than it's ever been (probably thanks in part to things like the Internet.)

I agree that it's probably less of an issue than in the past where it was virtually universal.  Do you think that's of comfort to the people who have to endure such a system?

[RedKing]

Oh look, it didn't take long for Glenn Beck to find a new way to be more of an asshat than he already was.

In the wake of last week's massacre in Norway, U.S. conservative commentator Glenn Beck on Monday compared the summer camp where most of the 76 victims died to the Hitler Youth organization of Nazi Germany.

Beck, on his radio show, declared the killings "the work of a madman" and called the suspect "as bad as Osama bin Laden." But before launching into that condemnation, he questioned what the victims were doing at a summer camp run by Norway's ruling Labour Party.

Beck said the camp "sounds a little like, you know, the Hitler Youth or whatever. Who does a camp for kids that's all about politics? Disturbing."

However, politically-oriented camps are being organized in several U.S. states by chapters of the "9/12 Project" -- an organization founded by Beck himself in 2009.

The Colorado 9/12 Project hosted a "Patriot Camp" for kids in grades 1-5 earlier this month, featuring programs on "our Constitution, the Founding Fathers, and the values and principles that are the cornerstones of our nation."

[Leafsnail]

You'd... expect him to at least make sure it doesn't apply to him before he invokes Godwin's law.

[Andir]

I don't have any hard facts, but I'd say it is far less than historic prevalence.  I'm sure that thanks to the Internet we are enjoying the over-inundation of information regarding this, but I'd definitely go out on a very small limb and state that it's becoming far less of an issue today than it's ever been (probably thanks in part to things like the Internet.)

I agree that it's probably less of an issue than in the past where it was virtually universal.  Do you think that's of comfort to the people who have to endure such a system?

There were several women at the roots of the Pentecostal movement.  There are several women that choose to follow it today, voluntarily.  I'm sure there are also many women who truly believe that their religious choices are justified.  It's not like they don't have more and more choices for leaving such an environment if they choose and joining less strict religions.  Many just choose not to.  Look at many of the Muslim women who live here in the States (and I'm sure other countries) that still cover themselves by choice.  I'm sure many of them can feel free to remove those shackles but choose not to.  The same applies to the Amish.  They at least offer their children a choice when they come of age, but many of them choose to remain in the culture they grew up in.


RE: Glenn Beck... while talking religion...
It amazes me that he finds no correlation of political camps to "Vacation Bible Schools" or those of his 9/12 project.  I guess it depends on your agenda.  (edit: Granted... people don't normally die at the other camps...)

[Leafsnail]

I don't doubt that some people might choose to live like that.  On the other hand, since the system they're in fundamentally doesn't give them a choice we won't know if the people involved in it actually have.

[Nadaka]

I have never seen anything published anywhere about the depth and breadth of problems in the IFB and pentacostal churches. Like I said, they isolate themselves from outsiders. The believers won't tell you any of this. You will have to find a person who left the church, and cohesion within the group is strong enough to make this very rare. I probably wouldn't be able to tell you this if I wasn't born as one. Its also the reason I can only point to the surface aspects of the pentacostals, they were a separate group, but all the warning signs are there.

I am not calling for a holy war though. I am not calling for retribution or even justice. I just want people to know. In the grand scheme, it may be a small problem, but it is a severe one and bigger than a couple google searches will show.

[MonkeyHead]

There were several women at the roots of the Pentecostal movement.  There are several women that choose to follow it today, voluntarily.  I'm sure there are also many women who truly believe that their religious choices are justified.  It's not like they don't have more and more choices for leaving such an environment if they choose and joining less strict religions.  Many just choose not to.  Look at many of the Muslim women who live here in the States (and I'm sure other countries) that still cover themselves by choice.  I'm sure many of them can feel free to remove those shackles but choose not to.  The same applies to the Amish.  They at least offer their children a choice when they come of age, but many of them choose to remain in the culture they grew up in.

I don't doubt that some people might choose to live like that.  On the other hand, since the system they're in fundamentally doesn't give them a choice we won't know if the people involved in it actually have.

Would strongly reccomed "Whit" by Iain Banks as an exploration of that theme.

[Andir]

I don't doubt that some people might choose to live like that.  On the other hand, since the system they're in fundamentally doesn't give them a choice we won't know if the people involved in it actually have.

I'm going to side on the optimistic edge and think that they do in fact have a choice.  There might be people so entrenched that getting out will cost them their lives, but pretty much anywhere I've been in the US there is a way out.