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[TheJackal]

Against danger rooms - it's a flat out exploit/cheat, you might as well mod dwarves to be made out of adamantine.

I guess you don't use water reactors, or traps, or bridges, or any of the many 'exploits' available.

But it's a single player game, danger room is completely optional and not something you can really accidentally do, so I don't see fixing it as a very high priority. If you want to ruin all the challenge then that's ok, it's your fort.

Wow, you're so HARDCORE! Can we ever be as cool, tough, and awesome as you?

[Krelos]

But it's a single player game, danger room is completely optional and not something you can really accidentally do, so I don't see fixing it as a very high priority. If you want to ruin all the challenge then that's ok, it's your fort.

Wow, you're so HARDCORE! Can we ever be as cool, tough, and awesome as you?

No, probably not.

I agree with BT there 100%, and I usually use danger rooms.
On my current fort I'm refusing to give in to the temptation.

[obeliab]

The best thing would be for people to use them or not use them, and forget about having "stances" on them.

[rojiru]

The best thing would be for people to use them or not use them, and forget about having "stances" on them.

Might as well get rid of this forum then, eh? No use discussing things with this sort of attitude!

Yeah, I used a danger room once. Was very simple to design and I immediately felt bad afterward. I embarked with a dwarf in full steel plate and a steel warhammer and I brushed it off as "this is a noble's son sent to lord over the expedition like some sort of medieval landowner hunting wolves that harass the villagers" but the danger room I couldn't rationalize. I got him up to legendary fighting, armor using, shield using and warhammering. Every single ambush and siege was won just by sending him into the fray with whatever recruits I had training under him. He smashed giants and scores of goblins into wobbly bits without effort. I had much more fun watching the recruits he trained rush sort-of-assuredly into battle, receiving blows and dealing them instead of simply "godmoding" through every encounter.

I can only equate this sort of exploit to finding an infinitely respawning creature in any RPG and farming them for experience until you hit max level, then going on with the rest of the game.

[greenskye]

I like to think of the danger room as the room from Kungfu Panda at the temple.

Sure danger rooms are a semi-exploit, but in a game that lets your mod your dwarfs so that they don't need to eat/drink/breathe it's hard for me to say anything is an exploit. I'd much rather see Toady embrace the "danger room" mechanic by adding training dummies or something. Then we'd have an "official" version that could be better balanced. Many people only bother putting danger rooms together because the current training mechanics aren't really adequate. If there were a reasonable alternative many people probably wouldn't bother with danger rooms.

I think it's cool to discuss things such as danger rooms but I'm not sure why people want them removed. In a game with no multiplayer aspect who cares how someone else plays?

[malroth]

I don't like having to rely on a melee force at all. Glorious charges? Legendary songs told of heroic exoplits on the field of honor?  These things reek of elfdom.  Real dwarves are too busy coveting their neighbors =Pig Tail Sock=  and carving exquisite murals of Donkey cheese into the mountain side to bother with the petty squabbles of surface dwellers,  let the magma traps and the serrated disks, and the 20Z drops and the cave in room and the War Elephants deal with the invaders.

[devek]

There are so many ways to make your fort overpowered, do what is fun for you

Right now I have 3 staggered ballista batteries covering a 80 tile long entrance, and nothing makes it through to my military It takes no time at all to train the operators and I made a fortune training the non-masterwork parts away.

[strongrudder]

It's hard to touch a dwarf in full steel plate, no matter what his skill. Does that make steel armor "exploity"? Would I be a cooler player if I refused to upgrade past bronze?

Now, steel does require a decent amount of resources to produce, so I think it can be justified as a sort of "reward" for all that work (or all the time spent importing it bar by bar). Danger rooms just need a way to make a similar claim. That is, if overseeing the production and linking of all those mechanisms and training spears doesn't count.

Given what your dwarves are doing to gain their skills, it makes sense that it would work. It doesn't even require less work from the player than leaving them to train each other, since after the preparations are done, both tasks are undertaken in the background while you micromanage other things. One just crawls along at a snail's pace.

[lanceleoghauni]

Yeah, in a game known for it's fan base building insane, impenetrable fortresses that only fall because someone accidentally toggled the wrong unlabeled lever and collapsed the entire mountain on the invaders, creating a force of insanely powerful warriors seems... lackluster and not worth the arguments over. In my opinion. if you like them, use them, if you'd rather not, that's fine too, just enjoy the game

[Berserkenstein]

I believe the use of danger rooms is only acceptable if the dwarf has children or pets.  I just pretend that the dwarves sacrificed their loved ones to Armok in exchange for military prowess.

[BurnedToast]

Against danger rooms - it's a flat out exploit/cheat, you might as well mod dwarves to be made out of adamantine.

I guess you don't use water reactors, or traps, or bridges, or any of the many 'exploits' available.

Believe it or not, no, I don't use any of those exploits. I'll sometime drop a few traps randomly down a hallway (not so much now that metal is rare and precious) and I do use bridges.... as bridges but I try to play the game as I believe it was intended to be played.

The only real exploit I ever use is a quantum stockpile to unload all the crap quicker at the start, then I sort from there into the proper stockpiles rather then having the dwarves spend 6 months dragging cactus logs and yak spleens from whatever random stupid spot on the map they decided to park the wagon at.

But it's a single player game, danger room is completely optional and not something you can really accidentally do, so I don't see fixing it as a very high priority. If you want to ruin all the challenge then that's ok, it's your fort.

Wow, you're so HARDCORE! Can we ever be as cool, tough, and awesome as you?

Yes, you can! A good start is to stop taking offense when people say they don't really care what you do in your single player game! It would be one thing if I stopped in a 'danger rooms are awesome' thread to say I thought they were exploits, but this is a thread specifically asking how you feel about them so what's the problem?

[phoenixuk]

I like the idea of the danger room, X-men style combat training, very neat.
I've just never bothered getting around to doing it. However this may change, as i'm getting tired of my full cotton candy brigade receiving crippling injuries to upper arms... it seriously is the only injury anyone in my military ever receives, and it never heals >.<

[Svampapa]

Live fire obstacle courses feels a bit like a hollywood creation, but wikipedia tells us:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Use against training soldiers

Some forces, especially in more authoritarian societies[citation needed], have also been known to use live ammunition against their own forces in military exercises,[citation needed] to ensure that the soldiers 'take their training seriously' and get accustomed to being shot at before facing actual enemies. This kind of fire is usually not intended to kill anyone, though practices such as firing into the ground close to a soldier going through an obstacle course pose obvious risks.

The USSR just after Stalin, in 1954, conducted live nuclear test during the exercises at Totskoye range against soldiers at the distance believed to be safe then in trenches. Any immediate deaths can't be proven today, but Russian human rights activists assert that long aftermath death toll counts by thousands.[citation needed]

Similar live nuclear test was performed by USMC Marine Corps Test Unit and US Army Armored Task Force "Razor" during the exercises Teapot (Desert Rock VI) at Nevada Test Site in 1955.

In some fictional scenarios such as the training of the soldiers in Robert A. Heinlein's Starship Troopers, a small fraction of the ammunition shot at the soldiers during exercises is real, and the shots are fully aimed. This again is intended to encourage soldiers to take their training seriously, knowing that failure is possibly deadly.

The British SAS and Royal Marines are also known to use live rounds, for the former during the Jungle phase of training, and the latter using live rounds in their final exercise.[citation needed] The SAS also use live fire in regular close quarter combat training.[citation needed]

And since most danger rooms use the less than lethal¹ training spear, it could be considered as a blank fire exercise.
So... no. I don't really see danger rooms as an exploit or a cheat. A bit cruel and inhumane indwarfane, but not really cheating.

¹Well... less lethal then *steel spears* at least.

[TheJackal]

Against danger rooms - it's a flat out exploit/cheat, you might as well mod dwarves to be made out of adamantine.

I guess you don't use water reactors, or traps, or bridges, or any of the many 'exploits' available.

Believe it or not, no, I don't use any of those exploits. I'll sometime drop a few traps randomly down a hallway (not so much now that metal is rare and precious) and I do use bridges.... as bridges but I try to play the game as I believe it was intended to be played.

The only real exploit I ever use is a quantum stockpile to unload all the crap quicker at the start, then I sort from there into the proper stockpiles rather then having the dwarves spend 6 months dragging cactus logs and yak spleens from whatever random stupid spot on the map they decided to park the wagon at.

So, a hypocrite in other words. Quantum 'stockpiles' are pretty exploity.

But it's a single player game, danger room is completely optional and not something you can really accidentally do, so I don't see fixing it as a very high priority. If you want to ruin all the challenge then that's ok, it's your fort.

Wow, you're so HARDCORE! Can we ever be as cool, tough, and awesome as you?

Yes, you can! A good start is to stop taking offense when people say they don't really care what you do in your single player game! It would be one thing if I stopped in a 'danger rooms are awesome' thread to say I thought they were exploits, but this is a thread specifically asking how you feel about them so what's the problem?
[/quote]

The problem is that instead of saying 'I don't like them, they remove my sense of challenge for me' is that you
A) Project, like your way is the One True Path to playing DF, which its not.
B) Are a hypocrite, as I suspected.
C) You advocate for game-based lock-ins to fit your style, other people's consideration be damned.
D) Make very bold assertions with no supporting evidence save for logical fallacies.

Which gives me a pretty clear picture of who you are and how you behave. Which is to say, a authoritarian fascist with a poor grasp of logic and rhetoric. You've put forth this notion, wholly without evidence, that a game tactic is 'exploity/cheaty' equal to RAW-editing (which it is not, on its face. RAW editing is manipulating the metagame, the mechanics behind the action, to make it something that it was not built to be. Danger Rooms are done in-game, as it is built by the Toady, solely within the confines of his creation. Likewise, a 'Danger Room' as a training device is a Trope in and of itself, and is more 'realistic' than adamantine dwarves. It is likewise less 'exploity' than a quantum stockpile or a water reactor, which break the laws of physics, as opposed to proposed ethical rules.) and then take the demeanor that anyone who uses it is beneath you. Unworthy.

This is the very attitude (that you are superior due to perceived and wholly subjective moral guidelines) that begets a host of human horrors which nature can scarcely lay claim to.

[Blade Master Model 42]

Look, the important thing for everyone to remember is that this is a GAME. A single player one. No one can force you to play a certain way, and no one is making you read this thread either.

If you don't like danger rooms, don't use them. If you do, knock yourself out/impale your kittens/babies - WHATEVER.

There's no use arguing what is more "exploity", or what people should and should not do on their time, with their save files.

Yeesh.