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Author Topic: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger  (Read 22409 times)

doomchild

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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #150 on: February 18, 2011, 02:41:30 pm »

So... not being a libertarian automatically makes you a liar?

No, making campaign speeches deriding the current administration's deficits, then enacting policies that pushed the deficit to unheard-of levels makes one a liar (FDR).

Campaigning on a platform of reducing crime and pulling out of an unwinnable war, then engaging in political espionage and continuing military involvement makes one a liar (Nixon).

Saying one thing and doing another makes one a liar.  It's got nothing to do with anything else.

Fun fact: federal government employees are less then half as large a fraction of the population as they were 50 years ago.

I've never seen any data to support that.  I'm not saying it's not true, just that I've got no data.  But even if it is true, government expenditure has continued to rise, and I think that's a better metric for gauging growth.
Has it? Now, I know nothing about the USA's government expenditure, but if the number of government employees has relatively decreased, it kinda makes sense that government expenditure has also relatively decreased (relative to USA's GDP, I mean). Of course, I could be completely wrong, not sure if they had War on Drugs 50 years ago.

Nixon started the "War on Drugs" in the early 1970's, so it's been going on for about 40 years now.

Just because the number of civil employees has declined (if it actually has, that is) doesn't mean government expenditure will go down.  You've got military and intelligence spending, welfare spending (Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, etc), federal highway funds being used to coerce states into doing what the feds want, incredible inefficiency and waste in existing agencies, and a legacy of poor budgeting.

American regulations were castrated over a period of years, whereas Canada's more-than-a-decade-of-straight-liberal-governance allowed regulations to be put into place that effectively tied the hands of banks so they couldn't do as many stupid things to make a buck. If we hadn't tied the hands of our banks they would have followed the US banks off a cliff.

See, and I think that they should have to face the consequences of their actions, instead of being hamstrung from the get-go.  The idea that our government can enact policies and setup bodies to scrutinize all of the myriad actors in an industry, and that those regulatory bodies will be able to promptly and successfully identify and punish infractions seems ridiculous to me.

I think you have to remove both sides of the regulation equation.  You don't wrap a huge, complex, confusing mass of regulations around them, but you don't bail them out if they screw up, either.  No amount of regulation will ever remove the desire to steal or defraud, and you can't punish somebody because they might do so later.  The only thing that makes sense to me is to make them responsible for the consequences of their own actions.  If a bank defrauds a bunch of homeowners with some huge, byzantine, Escher-esque cluster of deals, they're going to get the shit sued out of them, and they should have to pay back every cent.  Corporate liability caps should be removed, and the weird corporate personhood that we use to keep executives from being culpable should be removed.  Make real the threat of a truly equal and opposite reaction to financial hanky-panky, and it stops being worth the risk for all but the most sociopathic of people, and you'd never be able to stop them with regulation, either.
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Funk

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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #151 on: February 18, 2011, 02:56:50 pm »

yes this means that your all back under U.K. rule
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Leafsnail

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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #152 on: February 18, 2011, 02:57:37 pm »

No, making campaign speeches deriding the current administration's deficits, then enacting policies that pushed the deficit to unheard-of levels makes one a liar (FDR).
On a fundamental level, it doesn't.  If you say that building up a deficit while failing to tackle a problem is bad, it doesn't mean you can't build up a deficit while tackling it.  Regardless of outcome, I don't see how that's a lie.
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Tellemurius

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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #153 on: February 18, 2011, 02:59:20 pm »

yes this means that your all back under U.K. rule
the hell with that: American Revolution II

Taricus

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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #154 on: February 18, 2011, 03:00:42 pm »

yes this means that your all back under U.K. rule
the hell with that: American Revolution II

$10 says iran gets involved
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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #155 on: February 18, 2011, 03:02:29 pm »

I will put this in Dwarf Fortress terms:

Two dwarves in two separate fortresses think that pulling the big giant red lever in the middle of the room will give them unlimited riches. Fortress #1 has absolute liberty clauses in place that say a dwarf is allowed to do whatever he would like as long as he accepts the consequences of his actions, and makes laws to be reactive. Fortress #2 puts security guards in place with orders to beat off anyone going near the big red lever unless they have the express written permission of a higher up (proactive).

Fortress #1 dies horribly, and Fortress #2 laughs at Fortress #1. Unfortunately, Fortress #1 was Fortress #2's primary trading partner, and so the people of Fortress #2 starved to death as their economy collapses.

Just my two cents.
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G-Flex

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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #156 on: February 18, 2011, 03:18:03 pm »

No amount of regulation will ever remove the desire to steal or defraud, and you can't punish somebody because they might do so later.  The only thing that makes sense to me is to make them responsible for the consequences of their own actions.  If a bank defrauds a bunch of homeowners with some huge, byzantine, Escher-esque cluster of deals, they're going to get the shit sued out of them, and they should have to pay back every cent.

Hahahaha, you think that a corporation/bank who swindles the people will actually be held responsible by the people successfully, and you're acting like other people are naive?
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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #157 on: February 18, 2011, 03:58:25 pm »

American regulations were castrated over a period of years, whereas Canada's more-than-a-decade-of-straight-liberal-governance allowed regulations to be put into place that effectively tied the hands of banks so they couldn't do as many stupid things to make a buck. If we hadn't tied the hands of our banks they would have followed the US banks off a cliff.

See, and I think that they should have to face the consequences of their actions, instead of being hamstrung from the get-go.  The idea that our government can enact policies and setup bodies to scrutinize all of the myriad actors in an industry, and that those regulatory bodies will be able to promptly and successfully identify and punish infractions seems ridiculous to me.

The regulations aren't their to hamstring the banks or corporations, but are there to prevent them from doing stupid things like selling mortgages to people who can't afford them. Regulations don't have to comprise every single factor or actions in an industry, but make it so that corporations are more cautious about what they do to earn money.

Look, I can't explain it all that well, but if you're up for some reading, I can recommend a book that explains (much better than I can) how deregulation harms the economy, and regulation helps to stabilize it. The book is called Zombie Economics, and the author explains the fallacies behind deregulation and similar economic topics very well, without being very dry and boring. You should check it out.
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Tellemurius

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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #158 on: February 18, 2011, 04:00:35 pm »

This was why the national bank was a genius idea.

alway

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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #159 on: February 18, 2011, 04:36:05 pm »

No amount of regulation will ever remove the desire to steal or defraud, and you can't punish somebody because they might do so later.  The only thing that makes sense to me is to make them responsible for the consequences of their own actions.  If a bank defrauds a bunch of homeowners with some huge, byzantine, Escher-esque cluster of deals, they're going to get the shit sued out of them, and they should have to pay back every cent.

Hahahaha, you think that a corporation/bank who swindles the people will actually be held responsible by the people successfully, and you're acting like other people are naive?
Moreover, without the regulations in place, you have no legal ground on which a lowly citizen can bring mighty corporate powers can go to court with. The ability to sue corporations for their wrongdoings is a major part of what regulations do.
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G-Flex

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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #160 on: February 18, 2011, 09:59:21 pm »

American regulations were castrated over a period of years, whereas Canada's more-than-a-decade-of-straight-liberal-governance allowed regulations to be put into place that effectively tied the hands of banks so they couldn't do as many stupid things to make a buck. If we hadn't tied the hands of our banks they would have followed the US banks off a cliff.

See, and I think that they should have to face the consequences of their actions, instead of being hamstrung from the get-go.  The idea that our government can enact policies and setup bodies to scrutinize all of the myriad actors in an industry, and that those regulatory bodies will be able to promptly and successfully identify and punish infractions seems ridiculous to me.

The regulations aren't their to hamstring the banks or corporations, but are there to prevent them from doing stupid things like selling mortgages to people who can't afford them. Regulations don't have to comprise every single factor or actions in an industry, but make it so that corporations are more cautious about what they do to earn money.

That, and the regulations are there to actually be proactive and prevent problems from occurring in the first place.

This is especially important in some other industries where establishing fault after the fact is difficult to impossible. For instance, health/food regulations: It's much easier to say "don't put asbestos in your damn buildings" than it is to prove that the asbestos from Company X, which you worked for ending 10 years ago for 30 years, specifically helped to give you COPD. Or, to give another example, it's easier to regulate what people put in food (and perform inspections and tests proactively) than it is for people to hold some company accountable for a problem caused by the food, especially when that problem might be subtle, might be something hideously difficult to even determine or connect to the food (such as significantly increased risk of cancer later in life), and might leave no evidence years after the fact, when everything is said and done and nobody can prove anything.
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Bauglir

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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #161 on: February 18, 2011, 10:44:19 pm »

-snip-
« Last Edit: July 16, 2015, 10:16:17 pm by Bauglir »
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Mysteriousbluepuppet

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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #162 on: February 18, 2011, 11:23:01 pm »

Always funny to hear stories of some of the stupid fear you got against regulations in the USA. Companys are profit based, not consumer safety based. I still can't understand why people would fight tooth and nail to let the companies have the right to screw them over more effectively.
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Thundercraft

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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #163 on: February 20, 2011, 07:48:59 am »

[sigh] I really would have preferred to just ignore this thread and let it die, but...

^^
Goddamn dietary supplements.

EDIT: I say this only because said supplements are specifically exempt from that kind of regulation until they are demonstrated to have a body count, as of the last time I checked. Pet peeve of mine that's really only tangential here, but suffice it to say I think there are areas that could actually use more regulation.

It's that kind of ignorance which let Congress pass that Goddam so-called "Food Safety Bill" two days before Christmas! (Which, by the way, they did despite several million protest phone calls, letters, and emails. They only managed to pass it by suddenly cutting off the votes before all the votes had been turned in!  >:( )

What I'm saying is that your precious regulations on dietary supplements was already made into law!  >:(

Thankfully, these regulations are nowhere as extreme (yet) as they are in the European Union. There, the strict regulations have already managed to shut down a significant portion of supplement manufacturers and health food stores.

Please educate yourself about a subject before bashing it on a public forum. Go do some serious digging about the safety record of supplements and the effectiveness and safety track record of pharmaceutical drugs. Really, the Pharmaceutical Industry is like a legal drug cartel, milking consumers (and Americans in particular) for all they're worth.

You may choose to ignore the respected scientists and studies which show how synthetic vitamins are virtually worthless compared with natural ones. But what about the fact that most of the food produced today contains only a small fraction of the nutritional value of food commonly available many decades ago. The soil on most farms today has been leached of the essential trace minerals plants need to produce many vitamins. Commercial fertilizers replace nitrogen, phosphorous, and potassium, but there is virtually no interest in or incentive to replace the micronutrients. All agri-business is concerned about is the bottom line. They value quantity over quality. And they certainly do not make a habit of testing the vitamins and nutrition in their produce!

Also, if you don't like supplements, nobody is forcing you to buy or use them. But food, on the other hand, is something that affects everybody. If you are that concerned about food safety, then you should instead write Congress asking them to require labels on GM food so consumers know whether or not it has been genetically modified. This has already been done in Europe, but those Goddamn agri-business lobbyists bought out Congress here!

Many of you may be satisfied with (not knowing the full story about) the safety of genetically modified foods. But some of us are concerned. Did you know that most GM foods are made insect-resistant by the addition of scorpion venom? Did you also know that there are documented cases where this insect resistance gene has been accidentally passed on to weeds via cross-pollination? And don't get me started with GM animals! For one thing, there is a very real danger of GM animals escaping containment and then crossing with wild animals. And, already, it appears that food allergies are more common with GM foods, despite the fact that no long-term health studies have been done on eating GM foods.

You might even be surprised how very commonplace GM foods have become in our local grocers. (And quite a few products are irradiated by nuclear radiation to give them a really long shelf life.) Really, whether we like it or not, we've been turned into guinea pigs for the world's largest uncontrolled experiment.

Meh, why do I bother? At least I try to educate myself and then contact Representatives about my concerns.

Always funny to hear stories of some of the stupid fear you got against regulations in the USA. Companys are profit based, not consumer safety based. I still can't understand why people would fight tooth and nail to let the companies have the right to screw them over more effectively.
The problem with regulations is that they can be a double-edged sword. In the right hands, they can cut down on the corruption and greed at the expense of consumers. But in the wrong hands these regulations can be ineffective bloat if they're not enforced or, worse, can be misused or abused to hinder or hurt rather than help. Sadly, a frightening percentage of offices (both local and national) have become corrupt. (Seriously, I've read and heard enough horror stories about police and local governments around here to know this is more widespread than the media lets on.) So where there's a lot of money involved, there is a tendency for regulations to be either lacking or badly abused.

Also, outlawing or regulating something is not always the best way to discourage the use or abuse of something. Sometimes there are more effective alternatives. I'm reminded of the saying, "What happens when you outlaw all guns? Only criminals will have guns, then." If there is enough incentive to do something, then no amount of laws or penalties will stop certain people. (But this is especially true if they have reason to believe they will manage get away with it.)

Another part of the problem is that we already have bucket-loads of laws here in the States. It's gotten to a point where even lawyers and judges can have difficulty keeping track of them all. And they're making new laws all the time. So it can be confusing at times. For this reason I imagine some Americans are hesitant to add more laws to those we already have.

Anyway, I'm also confused why people fight so hard give companies more leverage to screw us over. But I would not call it funny. Especially since their ignorance affects me and my family as well. Instead, I'd just call it sad. Very, very sad...  :(

I hate to end on a bitter, sad note. So... how about a joke?

Why does the US have so many criminals, more than any other country?
Answer:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Wait, I've got another one:
What is the origin of the word "politics"?
Answer:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2011, 08:22:35 am by Thundercraft »
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RedKing

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Re: Obama Creates World's First Superstate With US-Canada Merger
« Reply #164 on: February 20, 2011, 07:58:08 am »

While we're on the topic of dietary supplements, might I suggest lithium?  ???
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